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Need some advice - 9/12/2015 12:40:22 PM

Koniev 2

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/25/2014
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Hi everybody -

After years of studying WW2, I think I've about worn it out. I recently watched the movie "Gettysburg" and my wife recently gave me a history of the Civil War. Well, I've developed an interest in it and I'm thinking of buying a Civil War game, but there are so many I'm a little lost. I've been playing PacWar for years and tried to get interested in WitP but I don't want a game that takes longer to play than the war it simulates. Could I have some discussion of the Civil War games available and which seems to be the best?
I realize that "the best" is highly subjective but any advice is welcome.
I'd like a game that encompasses the entire war, not just a few battles and I'd like to avoid over-complexity.
It should also contain the Naval side of the war which I have discovered was a far more important part than is generally recognized.
Any advice is welcome.

Post #: 1

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 12:48:38 PM

wings7

Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
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Check out "Scourge of War Gettysburg 150th Anniversary Collection", one of the finest and this is the entire collection!
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/501/details/Scourge.of.War.Gettysburg.150th.Anniversary.Collection

Patrick

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(in reply to Koniev 2)

Post #: 2

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 2:25:24 PM

Koniev 2

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/25/2014
Status: offline

I took a look at Scourge of War but it sounds like simply a collection of individual actions -
not the entire war, and I see no mention of Grant's Mississippi campaign, Forts Henry and Donelson, the siege of Vicksburg,
Vicksburg or Grant's and Sherman's campaign eastward to Atlanta, or Sherman's March to the sea. In fact, I haven't yet found any game that even mentions any of these things.

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Post #: 3

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 2:54:18 PM

operating

Posts: 3158
Joined: 1/19/2013
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"War between the States" is another game to consider, I think it was by Gary Grisby. It's a little dated, however it does have land and naval attributes. You'll have to decide if the interface is what you desire. Personally I wished that it had a more hands on approach to attacks,battles instead of computer AI playing both sides after you line up the participants.

(in reply to Koniev 2)

Post #: 4

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 3:17:01 PM

Ranger33

Posts: 557
Joined: 8/11/2012
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AGEOD's Civil War II is the new hotness if you are wanting to fight the entire war. It also includes a lot of smaller scenarios. However, you have to learn the AGEOD system, which is unique to say the least. I see you didn't want something too complex, so it might not be a great choice right now. That said, I found that the tutorials are pretty good and get you started, but I still haven't touched the full campaign.

The nice thing though is if you learn one of the games it's much easier to try the others, which is wonderful because they offer a lot of games covering conflicts rarely seen in gaming. American Revolution, Russian Civil War, Spanish Civil War, a wide sweep of Roman history, etc. With more on the way.

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Post #: 5

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 3:26:25 PM

nelmsm1

Posts: 1041
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Texas
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I'd have to second the AGEOD's Civil War II. Might be a bit more complex then you wanted but in the end I think it will give you everything you are looking for.

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Post #: 6

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 4:05:04 PM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
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If Gettysburg got you hooked on the Civil War... you really should try John Tiller's "Campaign Gettysburg" from HPS. Regimental level operational with Strategic aspects on a map that stretches from Virginia to Pennsylvania. Simple to learn, very realistic, and yet offers a near infinite range of tactical, operational, and strategic options. Start with this and then move up to the strategic games like Civil War II.

I have 100's of war games and Campaign Gettysburg is my most played. I never tire of it.

< Message edited by rhondabrwn -- 9/12/2015 5:06:05 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 4:32:14 PM

Koniev 2

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/25/2014
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Well, I certainly appreciate the comments. All of you have given me a great deal to consider. I think I shall spend this afternoon poking around some of the games suggested. I'll probably be back with a million questions, but I'm willing to lay out the fifty or so bucks to get what I want.

Speaking of questions: In my early investigation of this greatest of all our wars, I find myself thinking that Lee's foray into Pennsylvania
might be one of the greatest strategic blunders in military history and his assault on the 3rd day at Gettysburg was perhaps the greatest tactical blunder of the war. A reinforcement of the Confederate forces at Vicksburg and an attack on Grant might have been far more profitable in the strategic sense with incalculable political results in Arkansas, Missouri and Tennessee. I'd like a game that might shed some light on this and it sounds like there are some. Perhaps someone would care to comment?

In any case, many thanks.

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Post #: 8

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 5:12:11 PM

operating

Posts: 3158
Joined: 1/19/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Koniev 2

Well, I certainly appreciate the comments. All of you have given me a great deal to consider. I think I shall spend this afternoon poking around some of the games suggested. I'll probably be back with a million questions, but I'm willing to lay out the fifty or so bucks to get what I want.

Speaking of questions: In my early investigation of this greatest of all our wars, I find myself thinking that Lee's foray into Pennsylvania
might be one of the greatest strategic blunders in military history and his assault on the 3rd day at Gettysburg was perhaps the greatest tactical blunder of the war. A reinforcement of the Confederate forces at Vicksburg and an attack on Grant might have been far more profitable in the strategic sense with incalculable political results in Arkansas, Missouri and Tennessee. I'd like a game that might shed some light on this and it sounds like there are some. Perhaps someone would care to comment?

In any case, many thanks.

HPS has a game called "Vicksburg", it's been years since I've played it. It may have been upgraded since then, however, the HPS AI left a lot to be desired, never did try it in MP, which would have made it more exciting.

(in reply to Koniev 2)

Post #: 9

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 5:13:04 PM

VPaulus

Posts: 3630
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From: Portugal
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Don't also forget to check Brother Against Brother a good tactical CW game. :)

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Post #: 10

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 5:35:37 PM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline

Gary Grigsby's War Between the States is a great strategic level game. It uses a system similar to his World at War. It uses an area movement system and command system and production system vaguely similar to Civil War II but is considerably less complex. If you want more complexity and detail and want to learn the AGEOD system, Civil War II is really a great game, with everything from short scenarios to the entire war to play out. The AGEOD system turns some people off, and others love it. It is different. After several attempts over the years, I finally succumbed to the AGEOD system and absolutely love it. As for Scourge of War and Brother Against Brother, I have not played them.

(in reply to VPaulus)

Post #: 11

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 6:07:07 PM

nelmsm1

Posts: 1041
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: operating

quote:

ORIGINAL: Koniev 2

Well, I certainly appreciate the comments. All of you have given me a great deal to consider. I think I shall spend this afternoon poking around some of the games suggested. I'll probably be back with a million questions, but I'm willing to lay out the fifty or so bucks to get what I want.

Speaking of questions: In my early investigation of this greatest of all our wars, I find myself thinking that Lee's foray into Pennsylvania
might be one of the greatest strategic blunders in military history and his assault on the 3rd day at Gettysburg was perhaps the greatest tactical blunder of the war. A reinforcement of the Confederate forces at Vicksburg and an attack on Grant might have been far more profitable in the strategic sense with incalculable political results in Arkansas, Missouri and Tennessee. I'd like a game that might shed some light on this and it sounds like there are some. Perhaps someone would care to comment?

In any case, many thanks.

HPS has a game called "Vicksburg", it's been years since I've played it. It may have been upgraded since then, however, the HPS AI left a lot to be desired, never did try it in MP, which would have made it more exciting.

Well you couldn't just leave Virginia undefended so you wouldn't have been able to transfer much more then 1 Corps at best and would that have really made the difference. I don't think it would. Lee's campaign had its good points as the CSA was able to send a lot of supplies back to the Confederacy and did move the war away from Virginia. The failure of that campaign was to fight the battle of Gettysburg and take losses that the CSA couldn't afford to replace. He could have maneuvered all over Eastern Pennsylvania and Western Maryland gathering supplies and not fought a battle at all and allowed Virginia time to recover and harvest their crops. The fall of Vicksburg's biggest effect was to cut the CSA off from the foodstuffs comeing from those states west of the Mississippi. Gathering up all those foodstuffs, not to count the wagons, horses, iron stock, etc, in Pennsylvania and Maryland would have offset that and left the ANV fully manned for the next Union offensive. The CSA might have been better off giving up Vicksburg and concentrating all their forces to hold Chattanooga and keep the Union out of Georgia. My two cents worth anyway.

If you do decide that you might want to go the single battle route then I would second Rhondabrwn's recommendation of HPS Gettysburg. You can fight individual battles from the campaign or choose the campaign option where you can make strategic decisions and your oppponent, AI or person, does the same and the results lead to a battle which you then find. Once the battle is over you get a new set of strategic options depending on the outcome of that battle to give you a new battle, with losses carrying over the losses from the first battle. I've got all the battles of the HPS/JTS series and even helped playtest Campaign Overland and can't recommend them enough.

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Post #: 12

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 6:40:55 PM

Ostwindflak

Posts: 668
Joined: 1/23/2014
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

AGEOD's Civil War II will cover the land, political, and naval aspects of the war which it sounds like you are looking for. Go with Civil War II.

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Post #: 13

RE: Need some advice - 9/12/2015 6:55:38 PM

rickier65

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
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I would check out Brother Against Brother. While it still doesn't cover the entire war it still something you might want to check out.

Also, I recall from several years ago, a game named The Road from Sumpter to Appomatox. It was by Frank Hunter. It's been a while since I played but I do recall it had a naval aspect included and it did cover the entire war, but it is getting pretty old by now.

Rick

(in reply to nelmsm1)

Post #: 14

RE: Need some advice - 9/14/2015 11:21:38 AM

Eambar

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Joined: 4/2/2010
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I enjoyed Forge of Freedom. Covered the strategic elements of the war and you could also control the tactical battles on a hex map - kind of two games in one.

Cheers,

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Post #: 15

RE: Need some advice - 9/14/2015 4:38:55 PM

Poopyhead

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/17/2004
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You can probably find AGEOD's American Civil War (AACW), their first CW game for a few dollars in a bargain bin. If you like that, then CW2 is for you.

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Post #: 16

RE: Need some advice - 9/14/2015 6:07:35 PM

Yogi the Great

Posts: 1948
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Wisconsin
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Best realism in turn based game is Brother against Brother.

It is a little more involved so Tiller Games are another option.

Many may recommend Scourge if War but for me real time is too much hassle and too much going on for an old Grognard like me to keep up with while I'm busy on ones spot another is going to hell and my reflexes just have trouble keeping up. If however you like real time, it is a beautiful game and fun to play.

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Post #: 17

RE: Need some advice - 9/14/2015 8:37:49 PM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

Check out "Scourge of War Gettysburg 150th Anniversary Collection", one of the finest and this is the entire collection!
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/501/details/Scourge.of.War.Gettysburg.150th.Anniversary.Collection

Patrick

What he ^ said. He finally got something right.

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Post #: 18

RE: Need some advice - 9/15/2015 1:40:00 AM

operating

Posts: 3158
Joined: 1/19/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Koniev 2

Hi everybody -

After years of studying WW2, I think I've about worn it out. I recently watched the movie "Gettysburg" and my wife recently gave me a history of the Civil War. Well, I've developed an interest in it and I'm thinking of buying a Civil War game, but there are so many I'm a little lost. I've been playing PacWar for years and tried to get interested in WitP but I don't want a game that takes longer to play than the war it simulates. Could I have some discussion of the Civil War games available and which seems to be the best?
I realize that "the best" is highly subjective but any advice is welcome.
I'd like a game that encompasses the entire war, not just a few battles and I'd like to avoid over-complexity.
It should also contain the Naval side of the war which I have discovered was a far more important part than is generally recognized.
Any advice is welcome.

Here's a Civil War naval game that at one time I was thinking of getting , but never did: http://strategyfirst.com/games/1438-ironclads-american-civil-war.html The concept is interesting and perhaps a one of a kind for that period. It's dated and strictly naval.

Here's another thought: Have seen a Total War mod out there about the Civil war, can't say for sure if it included the naval side of the war too. If the mod was based on the TWEmpire game, most likely it would have naval action.

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Post #: 19

RE: Need some advice - 9/15/2015 2:28:34 AM

operating

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There is a number of Youtube AARs using the TWEmpire engine for Civil War Mods, here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyk-MyjekVA that will open the door to other examples.. Also the mod could be used to create naval bases. I'm sure there are other CW mods that have been created/designed.

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Post #: 20

RE: Need some advice - 9/15/2015 8:39:09 PM

operating

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Just found this all naval Civil War plus some land features game from Totem Games. Gave it a quick look, never seen it before, appeared quite interesting: http://www.totemgames.ru/

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Post #: 21

RE: Need some advice - 9/16/2015 1:56:44 PM

Koniev 2

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Joined: 6/25/2014
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All of you have certainly given me a great deal to think about. Thus far I've eliminated a couple games because it seems they're individual actions - not the whole war.

I was about sold on GG's War Between the States but it appears that the last AAR was in 2010. I'd like something a little more active.

Scourge of War 150th is devoted to individual battles as is Brother Against Brother.

It seems to be coming down to Civil War II or Forge of Freedom.

One thing I found very disappointing: The maps and graphics. I don't want galloping horses, marching troops, or roaring cannon flashes. I'd like a game that uses the standard military symbols as depicted in The West Point Atlas. The maps and graphics I've seen look like a video game. Does anybody know if West Point uses computer simulations and would they be available? I'm talking Civil War era, not modern stuff that might be classified.

I'm impressed by the level of detail and research, especially in the economic area, that some of these games go into. I'm also looking forward to a game where you don't have worry about air cover or tanks.

I'll keep looking, and I'm very grateful for all the advice. Thank You all!!

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Post #: 22

RE: Need some advice - 9/16/2015 3:08:39 PM

aaatoysandmore

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In that case I'd recommend "Forge of Freedom" you not only get the whole civil war but also tactical battles during regular campaign play.

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Post #: 23

RE: Need some advice - 9/16/2015 4:23:32 PM

Poopyhead

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CW2 uses standard NATO symbols for infantry, artillery and cavalry as well as formations for Divisions, Corps and Armies. It also has a tutorial and scenarios with smaller campaigns to break the ice. AGEOD is really good at listening to feedback. I've had things changed in the game from ideas I've suggested. It has single player or you can PBEM. This site has a rather quiet forum for the game, but AGEOD's CW2 forum always has some good chatter. Good luck with your decision.

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Post #: 24

RE: Need some advice - 9/16/2015 4:55:13 PM

wings7

Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

Check out "Scourge of War Gettysburg 150th Anniversary Collection", one of the finest and this is the entire collection!
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/501/details/Scourge.of.War.Gettysburg.150th.Anniversary.Collection

Patrick

What he ^ said. He finally got something right.

Well what do you know, Ross the Troll is back!

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Post #: 25

RE: Need some advice - 9/18/2015 3:11:25 AM

operating

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quote:

Does anybody know if West Point uses computer simulations and would they be available? I'm talking Civil War era, not modern stuff that might be classified.

It's funny you mentioned that: Some time ago, West Point did start using Scourge of War's Gettysburg in lessons on tactics, can't say that West Point has followed up with subsequent game releases from Scourge of War, can't see why they wouldn't have. I'm willing to bet Norb would have been more than pleased to give West Point complimentary copies of all his games if requested, it would be a feather in his cap to have the most prestigious Military Academy in the world to be using his games..

(in reply to Koniev 2)

Post #: 26