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RE: WitE 2 - 10/13/2015 9:16:10 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		Pelton

you are mixing together issues that are completely unconnected in that post. I presume you can't read Russian and doubt you have read much that starts from the Soviet perspective in English?

so lets help you out a little.

The 700,000 'detained'. These weren't deserters/troops panicking on the battlefield. Because the German encirclements in Bielorussia were poorly sealed (the infantry was too far behind) while the Soviet formations collapsed as organised units a lot of men escaped. Some became the core of the partisan groups, many escaped back to Soviet lines. Less escaped from the Ukraine due to the terrain and the near complete collapse of the Soviet Ukrainian armies after Kiev.

There they were automatically 'detained' and interrogated. In part as the Soviets had, a perfectly justified, fear of the Germans trying to infiltrate spies, partly as a punishment. Most were then released and allocated to fresh formations. In effect it was an administrative process that dealt with men who slipped out of encirclement - very different to the fiction of NKVD units lined up behind the front.

Equally you are aware that order 227 contained (deliberate) fictions? For eg, it blames the loss of Rostov on treachery and disobeying orders when in fact the Soviet retreat was ordered by Stavka and covered by NKVD formations who defended the bridges till they were blown behind them so as to delay the Germans.

The punishment battalions it mentions were not systemically created, Stalin wanted the threat to be present but it was rarely used and that element of the order was rescinded a few months later.

SMERSH was small, and used in a counter-espionage role, to catch those spies the Germans inserted and to monitor the partisan groups. It was an elite within the NKVD not a mass formation able to enforce battlefield morale. Ian Fleming's SPECTRE in the James Bond novels is based on the real life SMERSH. As an eg, SMERSH elements were the first into Hitler's bunker after regular Red Army troops had secured the area.

Note I am not saying that the treatment by the Soviet state of its population was anything but reprehensible.


< Message edited by loki100 -- 10/13/2015 10:20:45 PM >

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/13/2015 9:25:55 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Loki- Penal units were used by both sides- its documented. Basically any Soldiers that were up for charges for some crime or another or shirked duty could be sent there. They usually got very crappy assignments which meant they took alot of casualties- like mine clearing before major assaults, or being given the honor of leading the assault as the first wave.

Also Soviets did use blocking detachments at points in the war....and the NKVD did have oversight and from what I understand basically the ability to execute/imprison military officers for even the slightest deviation from what they thought should be done. An the NKVD did round up and more or less conduct ethnic cleansing of undesirables in the Caucus prior to the German advance. As they wanted to limit the civilians assistance to the Germans.

It wasnt until the Summer of 1942 if I remember correctly that alot of the NKVDs power over military commanders was rescinded by Stalin when he realized it was having a very negative and not beneficial impact on the Soviet Army.


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Post #: 62
RE: WitE 2 - 10/13/2015 9:44:56 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		all true, but that is not what the sources Pelton is citing refer to, as I said he's taking material that mostly reflects NKVD processing of those who escaped the 1941 encirclement battles and claiming that reflects NKVD treatment of those deserting/panicking on the battlefield.

Equally he was not discussing NKVD crimes in the Crimea or Caucasus against the Soviet civil population.

I'm not denying that punishment battalions existed, nor that the NKVD did shoot deserters (but as you say, this was actually more often aimed at officers rather than the rank and file). But the threat in order 227 was just that - a threat, and those particular units were very rarely formed and all were abolished within a couple of months.

Dual command was formally ended in October 1942.

The serious point I'm trying to make is that just chucking together a set of wikipedia pages can seriously mislead you (quite unintentionally). Its not that they are inaccurate, but they can be misleading in isolation

< Message edited by loki100 -- 10/13/2015 10:48:30 PM >

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/13/2015 10:18:40 PM   
elxaime

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
I'm not denying that punishment battalions existed, nor that the NKVD did shoot deserters (but as you say, this was actually more often aimed at officers rather than the rank and file). But the threat in order 227 was just that - a threat, and those particular units were very rarely formed and all were abolished within a couple of months.


The fictional part of this lives on in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, where Imperial Guard units (whose uniforms are modeled on the Red Army) can attach a Commissar to their unit. The Commissar has a special ability there he can execute the officer in charge and the unit receives a temporary morale bonus.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/13/2015 10:23:16 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Chaos and loki.

I have stated " Hitler and Stalin were monsters."

Has Helpless?


This is not about me its about The person in charge of WitE.

What does he think?

Ask him.

You can expect

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/13/2015 11:26:15 PM >

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/13/2015 10:29:24 PM   
chaos45

 

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Status: offline 		Pelton surfs youtube alot

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Post #: 66
RE: WitE 2 - 10/14/2015 12:04:22 AM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 941
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Status: offline 		Woof,woof, cacka doodle do, bleet and oink. Ever think, maybe, ya know, Pavel should keep his mouth shut on certain "subjects". considering where he lives?? Maybe?? How's that for paranoid fantasy? Until ya get shot, that is.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/14/2015 2:34:44 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
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Status: offline 		and still Helpeless answer?

so 4 yrs I have asked same question and zip for answer.


So Helpless

was Hitler a monster and Stalin a monster?

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/14/2015 6:19:34 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		This has become way too personal. I don't know why I'm surprised. Lucky for some I'm not a Mod on this forum.

I foolishly thought that I could get some constructive suggestions which might be implementable in the game code to mitigate a perceived issue in WitE's code. The code needs to be workable using the data set we have.

Simply saying we want more losses is pointless. It's like saying I want world peace and riches for all. It's how you achieve it that is important otherwise it's a pipe dream.

If you want to influence a change you need to get off your hobby horses, stop bickering and be constructive in a realistic manner.

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Post #: 69
RE: WitE 2 - 10/14/2015 9:40:31 AM   
wworld7


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From: The Nutmeg State
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

It's like saying I want world peace and riches for all.


I propose an alternative...... "I'll give you World Peace (except where people are mad at each other) but in return ALL the riches go to ME.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/14/2015 11:41:02 AM   
Manstein63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer


I foolishly thought that I could get some constructive suggestions which might be implementable in the game code to mitigate a perceived issue in WitE's code. The code needs to be workable using the data set we have.




Constructive suggestions for WitE 2

1. Have a joint supply phase prior to the turn ( that in it self should make the Lvov pocket harder to form on T1) as well as making pockets harder to reduce.
2 Notional combat value in an empty enemy hex or ZOC (this would allow the possibility of reserve activations in areas where no units were place) only Mobile units Cav, Tank & Mech would be able to do this
3 Moral: why should the Axis or Soviet player be penalised over moral if he/she is doing better than historically.
4. Rail movement: allow rail movement between cities & towns that have bean cut eg when the rail line to Sevastopol has been cut no rail movement is possible at all in the Crimea which seems rather silly to me.
5 better C & C what is the point of the Higher HQ's they don't appear to me to serve any real purpose for example you can send part of Panzergruppe Guderian down into the Ukraine with no real penalties for doing so One suggestion would be to allow units that are in reserve at Armee / Front HQ's to be able to activate in any combat applicable to the Armee / Front.

I have more suggestions but I thought I would just throw these out to see what the response might be.
Manstein63


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RE: WitE 2 - 10/14/2015 11:46:07 AM   
Manstein63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

2 Notional combat value in an empty enemy hex or ZOC (this would allow the possibility of reserve activations in areas where no units were place) only Mobile units Cav, Tank & Mech would be able to do this



Sorry I meant to say that only Mobile units Cav,Tank & Mech that were in reserve mode would be able to activate

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Post #: 72
RE: WitE 2 - 10/14/2015 12:47:56 PM   
Commanderski


Posts: 927
Joined: 12/12/2010
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I think that due to both sides avoiding historical mass losses you will end up with larger than historical forces on both sides, no matter what you do. I haven't seen this type of argument on WITW, so maybe with the WITW combat engine the combat losses could be historically correct but you still may end up with a larger army on both sides.

I also think that with the updated logistics system that will limit any overwhelming by either side. Their forces may be larger but the available resources will be historical and that will limit the size and scope of any massive Front or Group attacks.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/14/2015 6:34:03 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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From: Bozotown
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quote:

5 better C & C what is the point of the Higher HQ's they don't appear to me to serve any real purpose for example you can send part of Panzergruppe Guderian down into the Ukraine with no real penalties for doing so One suggestion would be to allow units that are in reserve at Armee / Front HQ's to be able to activate in any combat applicable to the Armee / Front.


This is an extremely good suggestion I have been considering for a long time myself. When you play the Alt-CV campaign you notice how very little CV is effected by HHQs. There should be a massive CV penalty for all units out of command range.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/14/2015 7:19:42 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		Red Lancer- the additional code effect that can be added to the game to increase losses and vary them more is a mobility factor added to the combat results/calculations.

Its also a major combat factor that is currently missing from how combat results are calculated.

I made several suggestions on how this could be coded in my post so take it or leave it but to say no real solutions were offered is a cop out.

Thats the simple answer despite all the sidebars.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/15/2015 12:23:46 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

This has become way too personal. I don't know why I'm surprised. Lucky for some I'm not a Mod on this forum.

I foolishly thought that I could get some constructive suggestions which might be implementable in the game code to mitigate a perceived issue in WitE's code. The code needs to be workable using the data set we have.

Simply saying we want more losses is pointless. It's like saying I want world peace and riches for all. It's how you achieve it that is important otherwise it's a pipe dream.

If you want to influence a change you need to get off your hobby horses, stop bickering and be constructive in a realistic manner.


We simply would like loses to be historical.

This has been a major bitch from before release and shortly after publicly.

In my game vs Chaos even when I win as Germany the ratio is 1 to 1 or 1.5 to 1

That's Middle Earth as I have posted historical loses in 43.

The ratio should be 3 .5 to 1, Russia lost almost 3 million men the 3rd quarter of 43 aka during Kursk.

Loses can be tweaked with the current code, as morveal has been doing patch after patch.

This will be a major bitch really the central bitch from the player base as it has been for yrs.

Ignoring its will not make it go away.

Simply have morveal tweak retreat loses.

This is not that hard to fix, the fact that its never been fixed is amazing to me.



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RE: WitE 2 - 10/15/2015 12:36:17 AM   
Peltonx


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Status: offline 		basicly for yrs 2by3 has tried to control the tempo of the game by the logistics model when the issue has always been combat loses to both sides.

The massive Russian loses suffered attacking in 43 was what stopped the major operations not fuel and in some cases the same for Germany in 41 and much more so in 42.



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RE: WitE 2 - 10/15/2015 10:07:51 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
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From: UK
Status: offline 		Pelton

You complain that 2by3 don't listen....all you have done is reset to your original premise despite all I have said. You are wasting your time in that regard.

I have clearly stated that if you want the issue considered you need to make constructive criticism to change things based upon using the data in the game (morale, experience, leader ratings etc). Furthermore despite saying time and again that WitE2 is being developed from WitW and that the code is different you are talking about morvael tweaking the code like he has in WitE. It is not the same.

Your approach to those who will make the changes is to ignore what I say and get feisty with Helpless. We care a lot about the game and are willing to put thousands of hours into the effort to produce the best we can. This is not about pandering to one player's opinions but please do not perpetuate the myth that 2by3 don't listen.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/15/2015 10:38:59 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

Pelton

You complain that 2by3 don't listen....all you have done is reset to your original premise despite all I have said. You are wasting your time in that regard.

I have clearly stated that if you want the issue considered you need to make constructive criticism to change things based upon using the data in the game (morale, experience, leader ratings etc). Furthermore despite saying time and again that WitE2 is being developed from WitW and that the code is different you are talking about morvael tweaking the code like he has in WitE. It is not the same.

Your approach to those who will make the changes is to ignore what I say and get feisty with Helpless. We care a lot about the game and are willing to put thousands of hours into the effort to produce the best we can. This is not about pandering to one player's opinions but please do not perpetuate the myth that 2by3 don't listen.


I always post allot of data to support my positions which are generally opposite of 95% of most, but generally the data has proven me to be right time after time.

Generally what I post is off hand rejected by most with out looking at whats wrong.

I have played both games and see very little difference between the combat systems as the generally so the same results on the bottom line.

WitW is a far slower game on the ground, less MP's over all per turn, costs more MP's to move into enemy terrain and its easyer to defend hexes. Now the air game is different and helps ground forces more.

.05 changes have killed the game 43-45 based 100% on the combat results from my last few turns. The tweaks to combat results has made ratios Middle Earth from what I am seeing alrdy.

As far as personal issue go most people are heavly pro Allies and super pro Russian so any historical fact that's negative toward Russia is a hot button issue- so its basicly not PC to do anything other then want Russia to win in summer 44, which after playing a few turns in 43 seems to be the case. But the player base will have to show data for 6 months to prove this.

Now the fact is the combat ratio is way off plain and simply I can not code stuff but simply keep putting piles and piles of data and hope its not ignored.

As with all the other issues in the past.

Generally speaking if I put up a good idea on how to fix it, that be the last thing 2by3 does, which is the track record.

I will simply keep posting data for months and yrs if need be until its fixed or so players can see the issue and stop playing because of clear imbalances or help me prove the point.





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RE: WitE 2 - 10/15/2015 12:49:55 PM   
Denniss

 

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From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		Withdraw losses should be influenced by leader abilities (admin or morale check?), experience should play a key role, morale not that high. Exhausted fuel should play a role for motorized units.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/15/2015 1:05:02 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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quote:

I always post allot of data to support my positions


I have never seen any real data from you in this forum. Where is this data?

In the past I have looked at numerous battles on resolution level 7 just to see what is going on under the hood. It takes forever and is not really that informative. Planes are dropping bombs, artillery is firing, tanks are shooting, rifle squads are firing all the way down to hand grenades and satchel charges etc. The problem is all this has very little effect on combat losses. The losses during combat are very low. The weapons mostly hit nothing. After combat, I guess, CV is calculated, the winner is determined and the loser retreats and at this moment most of the losses occur. But to me it is totally obscure how this is calculate and why it has to be this way. Shouldn't the combat losses be higher than the retreat losses. Is it historical that retreat losses are higher than combat losses?

I would also like to point out that the combat odds seem to have absolutely no effect on the battle results. Why? If a Panzer division attacks an NKVD Regiment with 99:1 odds the result is most often a normal retreat with 100+ men lost. This makes no sense to me. In a case like this the regiment should always shatter. Maybe there is a way to use the combat odds to increase losses? And maybe the combat odds could be used to determine when a unit should route or shatter?



< Message edited by Bozo_the_Clown -- 10/15/2015 2:22:24 PM >

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/15/2015 2:00:42 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


Posts: 890
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From: Bozotown
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quote:

Withdraw losses should be influenced by leader abilities (admin or morale check?), experience should play a key role, morale not that high. Exhausted fuel should play a role for motorized units.


Excellent suggestions. How are withdraw losses calculated right now?

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/15/2015 3:48:07 PM   
VigaBrand

 

Posts: 303
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From: Germany
Status: offline 		Bring in an organisation Level.
Idea: 10.
After each combat, everybody losses his "odds". Means after a battle I win with 4:1, I loss 1 organization and the other side losses 4. If the defender has 0, he will retreat. The attacker should be only allow to attack if he had at least 4.
If you had odds 10:1 you get it after the first attack else you must attack multiply times.
This will adds combat losses.
If active, you can change some MP for organisation. This means you couldn't endless attack with your troops.
After some combats you need a break.
For sure, the attack cost must be lower. You had than four attacks for a succesfull break.

Alternativ:
If everybody feels, that the casualties are too low, lets made two combat "rounds". You will double the casualties with this.

Alternativ II: Give the soviets the special ability that they didn't lost Moral for unsuccesfull attacks (like the old special soviet attack doctrine, maybe from 41-43). This will allow the soviet, if they wish, to attack every turn and so adds more losses for both sides. That can simulate the soviet attacks.
So the soviet player can decide to attack every time he wishes and so reduce the manpower pools from booth sides.


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RE: WitE 2 - 10/15/2015 3:49:35 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
.05 changes have killed the game 43-45 based 100% on the combat results from my last few turns. The tweaks to combat results has made ratios Middle Earth from what I am seeing alrdy.


As you do a bit too frequently, you aren't backing up your claims with anything. You may have a completely valid point, but if you don't support it with screenshots at least, you are not likely going to get the support you are looking for on the forums.

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RE: WitE 2 - 10/15/2015 5:42:20 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		basicly for yrs 2by3 has tried to control the tempo of the game by the logistics model when the issue has always been combat loses to both sides.

The logistics of WitE remains fundamentally the same, I look forward to a better model in WitE 2. That said, combat losses ARE undeniably ONE OF A NUMBER of issues which detract from realism. To slow operational mobility by reduced supply throughput will undoubtedly make the game worse if the combat model and other things- leadership evolution for just one example- is not overhauled concurrently. Losses are too low, and Pelton is not the only person to have noticed this. Less operational mobility= less combat= less losses. To make the game work, a new, realistic supply throughput only makes addressing the low losses problem more urgent.



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RE: WitE 2 - 10/16/2015 7:05:01 AM   
invernomuto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

basicly for yrs 2by3 has tried to control the tempo of the game by the logistics model when the issue has always been combat loses to both sides.

The logistics of WitE remains fundamentally the same, I look forward to a better model in WitE 2. That said, combat losses ARE undeniably ONE OF A NUMBER of issues which detract from realism. To slow operational mobility by reduced supply throughput will undoubtedly make the game worse if the combat model and other things- leadership evolution for just one example- is not overhauled concurrently. Losses are too low, and Pelton is not the only person to have noticed this. Less operational mobility= less combat= less losses. To make the game work, a new, realistic supply throughput only makes addressing the low losses problem more urgent.




+1



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RE: WitE 2 - 10/16/2015 11:20:09 AM   
swkuh

 

Posts: 1034
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Status: offline 		@RedLancer:

Playing your "WIN42-43" scenario now. I'd ask for more but respect your time. KUDOS

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Post #: 87
RE: WitE 2 - 10/17/2015 5:51:20 PM   
cardolan


Posts: 26
Joined: 9/19/2010
Status: offline 		Now it is official the next game will be Wite2... will new features be introduced or it will be just like Wite plus the logistic and air system of WitW.

We know the 10 mile weekly turns IGOUGO will be kept, but are new ideas coming?

I know it is early development but come on, give us something while waiting to the fanboys wars of Wite2

< Message edited by cardolan -- 10/17/2015 6:51:52 PM >

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Post #: 88
RE: WitE 2 - 10/17/2015 7:18:09 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
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Status: offline 		I just hope 2 by 3 will take the trouble to go through the 20+ pages of the game suggestions thread with the attention they deserve.

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Post #: 89
RE: WitE 2 - 10/17/2015 9:34:00 PM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
.05 changes have killed the game 43-45 based 100% on the combat results from my last few turns. The tweaks to combat results has made ratios Middle Earth from what I am seeing alrdy.


As you do a bit too frequently, you aren't backing up your claims with anything. You may have a completely valid point, but if you don't support it with screenshots at least, you are not likely going to get the support you are looking for on the forums.



I have started a thread alrdy and now I am seeing that 42 ratio is 1.7 to 1 also when they were 3 to 1 some time 4 when u won.

and why is it I have to prove my point when I am write over and over and 2by3 does not have, when they are wrong more times then write?

Both combat engine give the same results that's a give as they know


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