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RE: WitE 2 - 7/15/2016 8:21:19 PM

RoflCopter4

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

It took 4 years from WitE to WitW. It's been 1.5 years since WitW. We needed to spend more time post-release on WitE than WitW, so that is a plus for WitE2, however Gary is also spending some time on the tactical game in development so that is a minus (but Pavel is fully on WitE2). In some ways development of WitE2 should be easier than WitW was, but on the other hand it's a longer game that is harder to test and balance. However there's a lot of experience with unique WitE needs due to the WitE1 experience. We are in alpha, and will be for at least the rest of this year. Does that give you an answer?

I know it's rather ludicrously late to reply to this, but I don't check this forum often and I forgot to, so my apologies. Thank you for the very candid and helpful response, I appreciate it. You guys do excellent work.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 961

RE: WitE 2 - 7/18/2016 10:41:35 PM

SeriousCatNZ

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From: Auckland, New Zealand
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I apologise if this has been asked before. I promise I did read through the entire thread.

Will you be able to attack the enemy's logistics networks directly?

For example, German encirclement of enemy forces during Operation Barbarossa depended heavily on cutting off Soviet units from supply depots in reality, as opposed to complete encirclement in WITE before units become isolated. Since WITE is using a version of the WITW logistics system, if you cut off all sources of supply but one railhead for an entire pocket, will Soviet resupply be limited by the capacity of that railhead, therefore leaving some or all divisions undersupplied?

How will motorised divisions be modelled?

Motorised troops were very good on the defensive, being able to quickly mass infantry and towed artillery, which was why they tended to follow behind the panzer spearhead. However, they're soft targets. Yet in WITE they're almost like pocket panzer divisions. Is this modelled by motor pool attrition?

< Message edited by SeriousCat -- 7/18/2016 10:48:28 PM >

(in reply to RoflCopter4)

Post #: 962

RE: WitE 2 - 7/19/2016 8:13:14 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeriousCat

I apologise if this has been asked before. I promise I did read through the entire thread.

Will you be able to attack the enemy's logistics networks directly?

For example, German encirclement of enemy forces during Operation Barbarossa depended heavily on cutting off Soviet units from supply depots in reality, as opposed to complete encirclement in WITE before units become isolated. Since WITE is using a version of the WITW logistics system, if you cut off all sources of supply but one railhead for an entire pocket, will Soviet resupply be limited by the capacity of that railhead, therefore leaving some or all divisions undersupplied?

The massive flaw in WiTE that a rail line can support entire fronts/army groups/all 4 Pzr Armies is gone. At the moment there are two types of rail line - dual and single track. The normal capacity of a dual line is 5000 units of freight and of single line is 2000 units.

You can exceed this up to about 15,000 (that was the WiTW rule anyway) for a dual track line (and I guess to 10,000 for single track). But what you do is then start burning off more of your rail stock. This means that you can move less supply/troops elsewhere so its not a great game. Also this rail cap is also needed to move up combat units etc.

Once freight arrives at a depot it is broken down into replacement manpower/fuel/supply and ammunition and then allocated out to the combat HQs in range (by truck). Depots come in 4 sizes and a small one can't process much supply in any case.

So yes a single track line rail running to a small depot will really not support very much combat operations. It is likely that units will be under-supplied.

You can control this by playing around with the supply priority of the Corps/Army HQs. So a #1 will just about get enough to enable the unit to function defensively if not attacked. #2 is fine if you want to defend and are not facing regular attacks, #3 gives you attack supply and #4 prioritises that formation.

But remember that these priorities simply determine who gets the supply that is available - so a #4 priority command in an area of poor supply will probably still not get enough for its own purposes and will strangle the supply given to everyone else.

You can test this in WiTW - give an allied corps in the Vosges/Belfort sector level #4 - you'll see it probably is still short but any other corps in that region will really struggle.

All this is making control of key clusters of potential depots and the double track rails key to play in WiTE2. Far more realistic than the WiTE situation - and I suspect is going to be a bit of a shock to some players who only play the axis side and exploit the current logistical rules.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeriousCat

How will motorised divisions be modelled?

Motorised troops were very good on the defensive, being able to quickly mass infantry and towed artillery, which was why they tended to follow behind the panzer spearhead. However, they're soft targets. Yet in WITE they're almost like pocket panzer divisions. Is this modelled by motor pool attrition?

Those doing the detailed OOB work will be better placed to comment. Overall trucks are scarce for both sides - and due to the supply changes above, they are more important for resupply work than they are in WiTE. From my current PBEM with the axis for T5 I have 210k/220k of the trucks needed in units, 81k in the pool and 60k/150k of those needed for the supply operation. I'd suspect this might change but it means that any serious losses in my motorised divisions will really hurt.

I suspect there won't be special rules for any unit but given the new supply game and the importance of the truck (for both sides), you are going to have be cautious over the deployment of the Mot divisions. But I suspect they will remain as they are in WiTE - a good substitute for a Pzr division where you perhaps need mobility more than raw combat power.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 7/19/2016 8:16:51 AM >

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Post #: 963

RE: WitE 2 - 7/19/2016 6:22:44 PM

RedLancer

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One planned difference for WitE2 from WitW will be the ability to locate/see enemy depots and attack them from the air.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 964

RE: WitE 2 - 7/20/2016 3:02:12 AM

SeriousCatNZ

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From: Auckland, New Zealand
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Two things that have always struck me as super ridiculous in WITE:

(1) Pockets supplied through one hex.

Pockets can be adequately supplied in any circumstance that doesn't involve a total encirclement for at least one turn Ten of my divisions are almost completely surrounded, with a one friendly hex opening but is in an enemy ZOC. My units are three clear hexes and one river away from a railhead, yet all 10 of my divisions in the pocket will be adequately supplied for the week and can even attack at full strength.

(2) Never�ending re�pocketing and pocket supply (e.g. maybe tree bark soup?)

Pockets can be isolated during one player's turn, yet the pocket is broken in the opposing players turn, resulting in the entire pocket being in full supply. Which then requires re�pocketing the enemy, which once again magically becomes in�supply during their turn.

Will these be possible in WITE 2?

(in reply to RedLancer)

Post #: 965

RE: WitE 2 - 7/20/2016 5:58:07 AM

SigUp

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I think you misunderstood something about the WitE system. If a pocket's broken the units in there will not be in full supply. They are back in supply, but since the logistics phase has already passed they have not been resupplied. If they are pocketed again he next turn, they once again won't be supplied.

Now, in WitE the weakness is that supplies status hardly affect CV, which is not the case in WitW. In WitW undersupplied units take a massive hit on their CVs, which should also apply to WitE2.

(in reply to SeriousCatNZ)

Post #: 966

RE: WitE 2 - 7/20/2016 7:10:00 AM

LiquidSky

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

I think you misunderstood something about the WitE system. If a pocket's broken the units in there will not be in full supply. They are back in supply, but since the logistics phase has already passed they have not been resupplied. If they are pocketed again he next turn, they once again won't be supplied.

Now, in WitE the weakness is that supplies status hardly affect CV, which is not the case in WitW. In WitW undersupplied units take a massive hit on their CVs, which should also apply to WitE2.

This is not quite true. Units in WiTW take a hit when they expend ammo. They also wont take a hit until their internal supplies runs out. Which means they can fight/move in their pocket (with a slight reduced isolation penalty) with their internal supplies.

If you surround a German panzer division with full supplies, he is probably going to kick your ass on the way out.

_____________________________

�My logisticians are a humorless lot � they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.� � Alexander the Great

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Post #: 967

RE: WitE 2 - 7/20/2016 7:15:09 AM

SigUp

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I grouped ammo and fuel under supplies.

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Post #: 968

RE: WitE 2 - 7/20/2016 8:11:18 AM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeriousCat

(1) Pockets supplied through one hex.

(2) Never�ending re�pocketing and pocket supply (e.g. maybe tree bark soup?)

Maybe the effects are not strong enough, but:
1) I don't think rail supply can go through a hex in ZOC. And road supply will be reduced by higher MP cost to move via ZOC.
2) Pockets isolated at the end of your turn are not getting any supplies or replacements during enemy logistics phase. Their morale and supply level will drop, fatigue will remain high, and damaged elements will be kept. The main penalty to CV in WitE1 is "isolation" status though, and this is removed once pocket is reopened (non-isolated units rout out of pockets, so you need to have them isolated at start of turn to begin destruction). So it's still better to close the pocked than not, even if it will be reopened, but for sure it's not that good as full isolation.

(in reply to SeriousCatNZ)

Post #: 969

RE: WitE 2 - 7/20/2016 12:13:10 PM

robinsa

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From: North Carolina
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeriousCat

Two things that have always struck me as super ridiculous in WITE:

(1) Pockets supplied through one hex.
[
Pockets can be adequately supplied in any circumstance that doesn't involve a total encirclement for at least one turn Ten of my divisions are almost completely surrounded, with a one friendly hex opening but is in an enemy ZOC. My units are three clear hexes and one river away from a railhead, yet all 10 of my divisions in the pocket will be adequately supplied for the week and can even attack at full strength.

(2) Never�ending re�pocketing and pocket supply (e.g. maybe tree bark soup?)

Pockets can be isolated during one player's turn, yet the pocket is broken in the opposing players turn, resulting in the entire pocket being in full supply. Which then requires re�pocketing the enemy, which once again magically becomes in�supply during their turn.

Will these be possible in WITE 2?

This is a bi-product of the week long turns and the IGOUGO system. It`s not very likely opposing force would sit still for a week while being surrounded. Without daily turns and a WEGO system, which is not about to happen, surrounds depleting all supply right away would be very unfair as it essentially means that any breakthrough would go unanswered. This might be true in 41 and 45 but not in between. The way I see it is that if the opponent is able to re-open the pocket it was never closed in the first place (or maybe closed just for a few hours).

(in reply to SeriousCatNZ)

Post #: 970

RE: WitE 2 - 7/21/2016 6:17:18 AM

SeriousCatNZ

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Whilst it's perfectly understandable for infantry divisions to fight on using dwindling internal stocks, how is a panzer division capable of satisfying the voracious fuel requirements without a solid logistics tail linking the front to the zone of the interior? Panzers without fuel can't fight or move.

(in reply to robinsa)

Post #: 971

RE: WitE 2 - 7/21/2016 11:29:55 AM

robinsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeriousCat

Whilst it's perfectly understandable for infantry divisions to fight on using dwindling internal stocks, how is a panzer division capable of satisfying the voracious fuel requirements without a solid logistics tail linking the front to the zone of the interior? Panzers without fuel can't fight or move.

I may have misunderstood the initial post.

If there is a land route that is safe for transportation I don't see why it wouldn't be used. That being said I agree that it would likely result in a substantial bottleneck and that eventually supplies would run out. I wonder will the new supply system take these kinds of bottlenecks into consideration or is it only "proximity" to an ammunition/fuel/supply dump that counts? I know the rail system accounts for bottlenecks but what about the road system?

(in reply to SeriousCatNZ)

Post #: 972

RE: WitE 2 - 7/22/2016 2:47:45 PM

NotOneStepBack

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Has there been any update on when the new round of beta testers get to join ? :)

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Post #: 973

RE: WitE 2 - 7/22/2016 7:42:58 PM

Joel Billings

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Thanks for your interest. We are in alpha, not beta, so there is no open call for testers. Periodically we add in a few experienced players/testers to help us with our early alpha testing. We don't expect to be adding a lot of testers for many months. If you're an experienced War in the West and War in the East player and have an interest in early testing, you can mention it here so we can take note, but we will only be adding a few testers at most in the next few months. We need to get more things done first before it will make sense to manage more testers.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to NotOneStepBack)

Post #: 974

RE: WitE 2 - 7/26/2016 6:38:04 AM

Icier

Posts: 564
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From: a sunny beach nsw
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What is needed is a decent A1.
WITE is a killer for solo players who want to play to till the end...almost 1-2 hours for moves in 42 & onwards. I for one almost
gave the game away.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 975

RE: WitE 2 - 7/26/2016 6:48:20 AM

charlie0311

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Hi,

ai very, very slow, but only when it "thinks" it has the initiative. Show it who's boss, a good winter 42/43 offensive will do it. That will speed it right up to only a few minutes per turn, it's fast at arranging its defenses. hehe

(in reply to Icier)

Post #: 976

RE: WitE 2 - 7/26/2016 7:28:23 PM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ice

What is needed is a decent A1.
WITE is a killer for solo players who want to play to till the end...almost 1-2 hours for moves in 42 & onwards. I for one almost
gave the game away.

Are you playing using the enhanced CV calculations/display? If you do, the first thing I would do is use normal CV displays.

Otherwise try upgrading from what must be East German surplus computers (which I mean as a funny)

I am very happy with the AI at custom settings I have honed over time. Very realistic war it gives me until late 44.

_____________________________

Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
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(in reply to Icier)

Post #: 977

RE: WitE 2 - 7/26/2016 8:12:21 PM

NotOneStepBack

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What are those customized settings?

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RE: WitE 2 - 7/26/2016 9:55:15 PM

Icier

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From: a sunny beach nsw
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sorry duplicated

< Message edited by Ice -- 7/26/2016 10:04:08 PM >

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Post #: 979

RE: WitE 2 - 7/26/2016 10:03:00 PM

Icier

Posts: 564
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What settings are you using, I have never got past 43 & are you 1.09?
As for computers..I am using an Atari 69..runs well, only problem is that the tape gets stuck
in the drive & I have to bang on it a couple times to get it running!

(in reply to heliodorus04)

Post #: 980

RE: WitE 2 - 7/27/2016 4:38:45 AM

robinsa

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From: North Carolina
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I guess this is why I have never experienced the problem of slow ai..

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Post #: 981

RE: WitE 2 - 8/3/2016 11:59:59 AM

MechFO

Posts: 669
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Some quality of life ideas for WITE2.

Please allow batch orders for air group mission settings. With the current air fatigue rule in WITW, units mission settings have to frequently change, and the clicks add up very quickly.

For the east/west box:

allow batch setting of refit state for the different unit types in the box. I like to put the artillery/flak on refit in the quiet months and that's many, many clicks.

Flak assignment to cities:

Have the unit and city columns sortable. Looking for a specific location of a unit type is rather tedious at the moment.

(in reply to robinsa)

Post #: 982

RE: WitE 2 - 8/3/2016 12:21:19 PM

RedLancer

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Things are already changing which may help....

- We now have Air Divisions. The best way to describe these are that they are units with HQ tendencies. You can assign Air Groups to an Air Division for easier control.
- We don't have a West Front Box. We have a number of Theatre Boxes - Balkans, Western Europe, North Africa etc.

I understand your wish to reduce clicks and we will look at what we can do but I can't promise anything.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to MechFO)

Post #: 983

RE: WitE 2 - 8/3/2016 1:09:40 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

I think you misunderstood something about the WitE system. If a pocket's broken the units in there will not be in full supply. They are back in supply, but since the logistics phase has already passed they have not been resupplied. If they are pocketed again he next turn, they once again won't be supplied.

Now, in WitE the weakness is that supplies status hardly affect CV, which is not the case in WitW. In WitW undersupplied units take a massive hit on their CVs, which should also apply to WitE2.

This is not quite true. Units in WiTW take a hit when they expend ammo. They also wont take a hit until their
internal supplies runs out. Which means they can fight/move in their pocket (with a slight reduced isolation penalty) with their internal supplies.

If you surround a German panzer division with full supplies, he is probably going to kick your ass on the way out.

I do like the WitW isolation rules in general better then 1.0, you can try to reopen the pocket from the inside out wasting allot of
supplies or sit tight and survive a little longer then 1.0. + supply drops.

Seems more realistic

< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/3/2016 1:10:51 PM >

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Post #: 984

RE: WitE 2 - 8/3/2016 1:15:58 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

Things are already changing which may help....

- We now have Air Divisions. The best way to describe these are that they are units with HQ tendencies. You can assign Air Groups to an Air Division for easier control.
- We don't have a West Front Box. We have a number of Theatre Boxes - Balkans, Western Europe, North Africa etc.

I understand your wish to reduce clicks and we will look at what we can do but I can't promise anything.

Will there be an option like WitW so we can ignore the boxes?

Personally it seemed like a general pain in the ass and time sink tring to guess CV with each changing turn of weather/supplies/ungrades ect ect

I know a few guys liked it, but seemed like 80% of the AAR's were no-box games.

_____________________________

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Post #: 985

RE: WitE 2 - 8/3/2016 1:50:00 PM

RedLancer

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I'm not sure whether that decision has been made but I have always assumed that there would be a no box option. I would like to hope that playing with the boxes is the preferred option.

I will observe that in wider game terms the relative impact of the EF Box on WitW will probably be much greater than the TBs on WitE2. The new systems being added are much more nuanced. One of the Boxes is an Axis Reserve Box. This is where shell units appear and where you can place units requiring recuperation as it has a greater call on ground elements. As part of our improvements to the production system units created after Jun 1941 appear as shells and they will need to draw their share of production. This has allowed us to set better production rates and we no longer need to factor in units arriving at a set TOE with equipment already assigned.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 986

RE: WitE 2 - 8/3/2016 2:01:33 PM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

I'm not sure whether that decision has been made but I have always assumed that there would be a no box option.
I would like to hope that playing with the boxes is the preferred option.

I will observe that in wider game terms the relative impact of the EF Box on WitW will probably be much greater than the TBs on WitE2.
The new systems being added are much more nuanced. One of the Boxes is an Axis Reserve Box.
This is where shell units appear and where you can place units requiring recuperation as it has a greater call on ground elements.
As part of our improvements to the production system units created after Jun 1941 appear as shells and they will need to draw
their share of production. This has allowed us to set better production rates and we no longer need to factor in units arriving
at a set TOE with equipment already assigned.

I will give the boxes a second chance.

WoW great improvement with the Reserve Box.

This for both sides?

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

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Post #: 987

RE: WitE 2 - 8/3/2016 3:30:59 PM

RedLancer

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Yes - the Soviets have TBs too. Reserve, Far East etc.

_____________________________

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WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 988

RE: WitE 2 - 8/3/2016 8:45:00 PM

Denniss

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I hope there will be no option to disable the boxes - in WitW this causes more problems than it's worth (lots of duplicate units for germany, some on-map units but mostly support and air units; main causes are historical renames, reforming or regrouping onto larger formatiosn)

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Post #: 989

RE: WitE 2 - 8/3/2016 9:26:04 PM

Joel Billings

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There is no plan to disable the boxes. However, we are planning setting up the ability to choose to automate movement of units between the boxes, so that the units flow historically as they did between the different fronts. This is one area where we'd expect new players would leave things automated at first, but later might be interested in taking control.

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(in reply to Denniss)

Post #: 990