RE: WitE exploit going to be removed from 2.0?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: WitE exploit going to be removed from 2.0?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: WitE exploit going to be removed from 2.0?

Page: << < prev 34 35 [36] 37 38 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: WitE exploit going to be removed from 2.0? - 9/20/2016 8:29:03 AM

cardolan

Posts: 26
Joined: 9/19/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rrbill

Would be quite nice to have some variability in map, opening positions (both sides,) and reinforcement schedules. Not a lot, but enough to affect "booked" openings, moves, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Maybe one turn previous to the current start for the soviet and the german with all units fixed except some few "strategic reserves" that the player may be able to move where he want.

It could be interesting also to have a grand campaign that start at turn 3, with all historical initial movement and encerclement done and panzers low on fuel (but ready to HQBU and resume offensive operation on turn 4).

There is a similar scenario in WITP-AE and it is very interesting to decrease the importance of the "opening move", which seems to be quite an art on WITE but maybe not the core of the game.

The opening is really important in the game. Some people train/experiment to create the "perfect opening". Others copy the opening using AAR. As most experienced people do "perfect opening", the game is balanced around it, and people who fail their opening fail the game.

I think the opening is too important and is a huge issue for beginner trying to play in multi. A campaign that start "after" the opening will avoid this problem.

After that, the opening is only one turn.

Thats exactly the reason I got burned playing WitE and eventualy quit playing it.

In WitE, as the Germans, you make a perfect first turn or you are toast for the rest of the campaign. Diving through the forums looking for the perfect movements and repeating them again and again... that was not fun.

Please, add some variability in the campaign. Also, variable victory conditions unknown to the players before they start the game would be great (maybe make this optional) For example:

One game could be:
+100 VP for GHC if Smolensk taken before turn 6, +300 VP for the SHC if smolensk taken in turn 6 or later for the SHC
+200 VP for GHC if Smolensk taken before turn 5, +200 VP for the SHC if Smolensk taken in turn 5 or later
+300 VP for GHC if Smolensk taken before turn 4, +100 VP for the SHC if Smolensk taken in turn 4 or later
+300 VP for GHC if crosses the Daugava with a tank division before turn 2
+300 VP for SHC if 100.000 or more German KIA in soviet counterattacks before turn 10

This way, no game will be the same.

< Message edited by cardolan -- 9/20/2016 8:31:26 AM >

(in reply to Stelteck)

Post #: 1051

RE: WitE exploit going to be removed from 2.0? - 9/20/2016 12:06:00 PM

MechFO

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
Blizzard: We have only just (this week!) added the first elements of this code. I don't want to get into specifics as things will no doubt change. Current rules include additional costs for truck movement, a reduction in Axis rail capability and frostbite rules to damage Axis ground elements and aircraft (reduced by terrain and fort levels). My view is that with increased losses the need to impose draconian blizzard rules is less to achieve historical parity.

Very good ideas. I would also add in a scaling element from unit supply. High unit supply stock reduces attrition, low supply sharply increases it. Idea would be that in forts/high supply/static situation a unit doesn't notice much, but suffers greatly from a sustained fight in the open. This also incentives the Soviet player to make that kind of fight happen i.e. attack over wide fronts during Blizzard to drive up attrition.

Regarding SU's. The Brigading addition is welcome, the rest I'd keep as it is. The problem is really GUI and management. My suggestion would be to create something like the CR overview for air units in WITW. All squadrons belonging to the different HQ units are visible and sorted according to HQ hierarchy.

This would provide a nice overview of what HQ has how many/which SU's. It would be very nice if the SU's command could be changed here as well, without having to go into the SU window.

Also support randomizing the Soviets if German player is human. I don't think it matters much vice versa. Would it be possible to have 3-5 different setups of which one is chosen randomly.

< Message edited by MechFO -- 9/20/2016 12:11:03 PM >

(in reply to RedLancer)

Post #: 1052

RE: WitE exploit going to be removed from 2.0? - 9/20/2016 12:24:59 PM

timmyab

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline

It would be nice if Soviet divisions could directly attach a single support unit of certain types (maybe only up to battalion strength).

Has any thought been given to introducing NKVD blocking units as support units? A rule for this could be that you would need 3:1 for a retreat against a unit with a blocking unit attached, but casualties would be higher for the defending unit.

I would also like anti tank support units to kill a few more tanks than they do in WITE. The same applies to on map AT brigades.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 9/20/2016 12:28:54 PM >

(in reply to cardolan)

Post #: 1053

RE: WitE exploit going to be removed from 2.0? - 9/20/2016 12:44:06 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

It would be nice if Soviet divisions could directly attach a single support unit of certain types (maybe only up to battalion strength).

....

you'll be able to do this. Add on with tank brigades purely as off-map and rifle brigades either on or off map, it will make sense to use the late 41/mid-42 typical Soviet shock army OOB - ie 5-6 divisions, a number of brigades plus extra SUs.

With prep pts and an attached brigade, you should be able to get a stack with around 20-25 attack cv (say 10-12 on the defense or after you have attacked once), add on the possibility of extra brigades being added from the HQ and you have a one-off (you'll lose the prep pts post attack) force capable of taking out most defensive positions.

edit: Also with the AT brigades possibly off map, I think they become more useful. Easier to assign to a sector where you think the Pzrs will be and they won't be that obvious to the axis player till they attack. I tend to find the current WiTE AT brigades essentially useless in that they take up a stacking slot far better used for another division.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 9/20/2016 12:47:51 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to timmyab)

Post #: 1054

RE: WitE exploit going to be removed from 2.0? - 9/20/2016 1:07:53 PM

timmyab

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline

That all sounds sensible to me.
Actually the on map AT and tank brigades are pretty useful but not in a realistic way. More in an asymmetric warfare kind of way :)

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 1055

RE: WitE exploit going to be removed from 2.0? - 9/23/2016 11:09:22 AM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer
Many of the anomalies in the WitW system did not become visible until applied to the longer distances of the East Front.

Once again I have to highlight that WitW and WitE2 systems, though similar, are not the same.

In WitW a single depot, with sufficient freight, can supply an entire front using 10,000+ trucks. When you consider that the Red Ball Express had about 6000 trucks at its peak then you can see the problem. In WitE2 there are now limits on the amount of trucks a depot can handle.

Whilst agree that the behaviour of trucks is very very similar there are still some fundamental differences such as a WitE truck carring 1T and a WitW truck carrying 2.5T. Many of the anomalies in the WitW system did not become visible until applied to the longer distances of the East Front.

No surprises here, many systems exhibit this behaviour, they work well unless taken into extreme, where some shortages or
restrictions start to apply.

The anomalies in the WitW system were VERY easy to see as I pointed out in the DEV area before alpha even started for
WitE 2.0. Nice to see you "found" some of them over a year later.

The basic logistical theory behind WitW/WitE/2.0 are all the same. The mechanics are different but they all play the same
music if you know how.

Just guessing with 2.0 of course

< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/23/2016 11:11:33 AM >

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 1056

RE: WitE 2 - 9/23/2016 5:14:59 PM

Grubwurm

Posts: 41
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Tampa, FL USA
Status: offline

I am going to get WitW with typhoon next month prob waiting for changes to my budget to work out to get a good idea of spending money.

If it is better then WitE as it is now - I really like the Sicily campaign and Africa - not so much the west front (just mass over quality ad infinitum). I read somewhere that for every front line combat soldier there was 72men in support.

Really Germany didn't stand a chance in the ground war with total air superiority. Hitler would have been better off just getting a good defensive line in depth and keep the superior units in the east. It would have delayed the end a little bit longer IMO. He had to go for the hail mary play tho.

WitE 2.0 is still at least 5yrs away correct?

< Message edited by Grubwurm -- 9/23/2016 5:18:55 PM >

(in reply to HMSWarspite)

Post #: 1057

RE: WitE exploit going to be removed from 2.0? - 9/23/2016 10:32:15 PM

Icier

Posts: 564
Joined: 7/15/2014
From: a sunny beach nsw
Status: offline

Please, add some variability in the campaign. Also, variable victory conditions unknown to the players before they start the game would be great (maybe make this optional) For example:

One game could be:
+100 VP for GHC if Smolensk taken before turn 6, +300 VP for the SHC if smolensk taken in turn 6 or later for the SHC
+200 VP for GHC if Smolensk taken before turn 5, +200 VP for the SHC if Smolensk taken in turn 5 or later
+300 VP for GHC if Smolensk taken before turn 4, +100 VP for the SHC if Smolensk taken in turn 4 or later
+300 VP for GHC if crosses the Daugava with a tank division before turn 2
+300 VP for SHC if 100.000 or more German KIA in soviet counterattacks before turn 10

This way, no game will be the same.

[/quote]

Also doing something like this could alter Soviet tactics, so instead of seeing how quick the
Red army can retreat, maybe it would force them to stand & counter attack.

< Message edited by Ice -- 9/23/2016 10:37:18 PM >

_____________________________

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

(in reply to cardolan)

Post #: 1058

RE: WitE 2 - 9/23/2016 10:39:29 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grubwurm

WitE 2.0 is still at least 5yrs away correct?

I sure hope not. The original WitE and WitW each took about 4 years of development time. We're almost 2 years in already on WitE2.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Grubwurm)

Post #: 1059

RE: WitE 2 - 9/24/2016 4:52:42 AM

Grubwurm

Posts: 41
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Tampa, FL USA
Status: offline

AWESOME I am glad to be corrected.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 1060

RE: WitE 2 - 9/25/2016 2:13:17 AM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grubwurm

WitE 2.0 is still at least 5yrs away correct?

I sure hope not. The original WitE and WitW each took about 4 years of development time. We're almost 2 years in already on WitE2.

really?

You being completely honest about this?

just asking

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 1061

RE: WitE 2 - 9/25/2016 2:23:00 AM

Peltonx

Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0c3d7QgZr7g

_____________________________

Beta Tester WitW & WitE

(in reply to Peltonx)

Post #: 1062

RE: WitE 2 - 9/25/2016 7:04:33 PM

No idea

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grubwurm

WitE 2.0 is still at least 5yrs away correct?

I sure hope not. The original WitE and WitW each took about 4 years of development time. We're almost 2 years in already on WitE2.

So, if wite 2 takes you 3 years (given that a part of the work is already made in wite and witw) and you already have 2 years of work in wite 2 then that means that we can hope wite 2 late during next year? Perhaps for Christmas? Yes, I will bet for 2017 Christmas.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 1063

RE: WitE 2 - 9/26/2016 10:24:21 PM

Icier

Posts: 564
Joined: 7/15/2014
From: a sunny beach nsw
Status: offline

What will be helpful is when a Corps HQ is forced to move for any reason the move is listed in the logistics log.

_____________________________

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

(in reply to No idea)

Post #: 1064

RE: WitE 2 - 9/27/2016 2:02:19 AM

Icier

Posts: 564
Joined: 7/15/2014
From: a sunny beach nsw
Status: offline

Instead of having an arbitrary moral figure imposed on each side for each year & month, what about
a method to earn it. Say something like..every 5 battles drawn or won an increase by 1 point & every
battle lost 1/5 pt lost & this applies throughout 41-45.
now this is only an idea.. so input would be appreciated, but if you think it through & not just
jump in, you may understand what I am envisioning, what the armies on both sides would look like.

_____________________________

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

(in reply to Icier)

Post #: 1065

RE: WitE 2 - 9/27/2016 7:50:43 AM

Stelteck

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline

Maybe something relative to captured objective instead of win/loss ratio.
Win/loss ratio would produced weird results such as unwilliness to fight if not sure to win.

We select a list of objective. (As example, Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov).

4 times a year, a morale adjustment is done with the following rule :

- Starting from 1942, soviet gain one morale point for each objective still hold.
- Starting from 1943, german loose one morale point for each objective NOT hold.
- Starting from 1944, each side loose an additional morale point (war exaustion).
- Starting from 1945, each side loose 2 additional morale points.

Of course everything need balance (number of adjustment per year, gain/loss amount, numbers of objectives, etc.....).

But i think it could be interesting.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 9/27/2016 7:51:35 AM >

(in reply to Icier)

Post #: 1066

RE: WitE 2 - 9/27/2016 10:49:47 AM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

Morale should be tied to the relative success or failure of the war at that point in time IMO. If Germany is is still holding the Volga line in 1943 why should there moral go down and the Soviet up?

_____________________________

(in reply to Stelteck)

Post #: 1067

RE: WitE 2 - 9/27/2016 11:55:27 AM

Stelteck

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline

I would answer you with 3 points :

- All side shall suffer by long never ending war by exhaustion.
- German side shall suffer the most as the attack on russia was expected and planned as a short, victorious war.
- For german, the war in the east is not the only front and as time go on, germany also have issues at home. (Allied bombing, others fronts, lack of raw materials, etc....). It affect the eastern front of course.

But i agree that german shall be able to mitigate morale loss if german own enough objective.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 9/27/2016 11:59:36 AM >

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 1068

RE: WitE 2 - 9/27/2016 12:31:10 PM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

Beware of snowball effects, where strong gets stronger and weak gets weaker. IMHO hardwired morale changes are better than snowballing morale changes... The ideal of getting meaningful yet non-snowballing changes is hard to achieve. In the end you should achieve something akin to hardwired morale tables, and the effort would be best spent elsewhere. The only incentive that doesn't actually alter balance in the game itself (units do not become weaker or stronger), is victory points. This is what should be used to steer the course of the war/behavior of players in right direction.

(in reply to Stelteck)

Post #: 1069

RE: WitE 2 - 9/27/2016 9:20:26 PM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline

Better player should win. I am not worried about a snowball. Sand boxing and hard wired or fabricated results I don't like.

I guess there are two schools of thought. Those who want the game to go in to 1945 regardless of player capabilities and those like myself who are happy for the game to end early if one side dominates the other.

It's nonsense to suggest that German morale would be the same if we were to compare two situations where in one Germany held a line along the Volga in 1943 with no military disasters and another situation where they were back at the Dnepr after being rolled badly mid 1943.

It should be addressed in WITE 2.0.

_____________________________

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 1070

RE: WitE 2 - 9/27/2016 10:00:19 PM

charlie0311

Posts: 941
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline

With thier cities being bombed to rubble, wouldn't make a whit of difference where the front line was.

And, hehe, those who want the game to go to '45 v Micheal, no matter skill level, pls speak up. hehe

< Message edited by charlie0311 -- 9/27/2016 10:03:14 PM >

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 1071

RE: WitE 2 - 9/27/2016 10:56:17 PM

Icier

Posts: 564
Joined: 7/15/2014
From: a sunny beach nsw
Status: offline

I have never favored victory points as they are usually tied to accomplishing a specific object, which forces both sides to "NARROW" their game and not test out different things.
as "Stelteck" stated a little earlier
Win/loss ratio would produced weird results such as unwilliness to fight if not sure to win.
& although he was arguing against the idea, I would contend that this is what really happened
& no matter how good of a general you may be, you cant win battles if the units dont want to fight.
In fact you may become abetter general, as you would want to win/draw your battles, so you would
want to incorporate all available elements available to win.

< Message edited by Ice -- 9/27/2016 10:57:03 PM >

_____________________________

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 1072

RE: WitE 2 - 9/28/2016 12:54:32 AM

EwaldvonKleist

Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline

It was already discussed some time ago, but WITE really needs a separation of experience, national morale, unit morale and nationwide combat efficiency. The way it is now mixes things up which are in fact very different.
My idea:
1) Combat efficiency: General level of tactics/doctrinal skill, low level leadership, communication equipment etc.
2) National morale: The nations will to fight.
3) Unit Morale: The will to fight of the troops of a single unit.
4) Experience: The average experience of the troops of a single unit or how much war have they already seen?

So how are they influenced?
1) Generic multiplier based on the year/month. Axis improves slowly because the combat efficiency was already very good 6/1941 while Soviets start from a low level, catch up over the years and in 1945 they wont be that far behind the Germans. Obviously this is a long term thing.
2) To be discussed, but related to % of the area captured, cities captured/lost, men/equipment losses. Mid to long term effect.
3) Individual unit morale gravitates to the national morale, but is strongly influenced by what the unit does: Winning battles and capturing territory/cities improves it. A unit doing a successful counterattack can have a high unit morale, even though the nations as a whole is close to the collapse and reverse. Mid to short term effect.
4) Experience is gained from everything a unit can do, but with different influence of course: fighting>marching>doing nothing.
If the unit gets replacements, the experience drops a notable amount. Mid and short term effect.
Example: Unit exp: 80. Strength: 10 000. Replacements exp: 40. Losses: 2000. New experience if unit is brought back to 10 000 is (8 000*80+2000*40)/10 000=72. If we assume the veterans teach the replacements something, we could modify the formula in a way that the new morale is around 75 or so. Germans loose less morale through replacements because they had a better system to integrate them into the units. Experience above a certain level can't be reached through training, but only through combat.

Advantages:
-clear separation of long term and mid term/short term changes. A unit slowly getting better because of national doctrines improvements can have a bad morale because of a few recent losses, but still good experience because it consists of veterans and hasn't gotten a lot of replacements.
-no single "unlimited power" multiplier
-with notable (unlike in WITE 1) experience drop through replacements, the player is even more forced to have a plan for refitting and a real incentive to keep his elite veterans for really important fights and leave the meat grinders to the standard units (at the moment, one just need to all replacements into the elite units and let them do all the fighting, this is only partially realistic)

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 9/28/2016 12:59:10 AM >

(in reply to Icier)

Post #: 1073

RE: WitE 2 - 9/28/2016 3:07:25 AM

Sammy5IsAlive

Posts: 514
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline

Removed

< Message edited by Sammy5IsAlive -- 9/28/2016 9:33:43 AM >

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 1074

RE: WitE 2 - 9/29/2016 11:40:45 PM

EwaldvonKleist

Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline

By way the historical war was a perfect example of snowballing, why shouldn't the game be the same?
If the simulation is good and the soviets do not completely mess up, the germans will never be able to take as much territory as shown in some WITE 1 AARs because they don't have the logistic capabilites to push to the Kubyshew Stalingrad Baku line (what means supplying an all out attack with the whole army). So the snowballing should not be as severe as in WITE regarding the axis progress.

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)

Post #: 1075

RE: WitE 2 - 9/30/2016 12:43:30 PM

robinsa

Posts: 183
Joined: 7/24/2013
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

I agree. Snowballing is not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion either. A good player gaining an advantage through good play should also have an advantage going in to the next stage of the game.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)

Post #: 1076

RE: WitE 2 - 9/30/2016 1:05:33 PM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

However, in real wars snowballing might be prevented by exhaustion of both participants. Some games have an elegant mechanics for that (the clock till complete exhaustion is ticking, and various actions are able to slow it down or make it run quicker, but there is no way to stop it completely or move it back, and after a time a participant may find himself in a situation in which he must cease hostilities). This means the weakening effect of prolonged war is telling on winner nearly the same as on loser. Winner might be so gutted by his victories that he can't achieve decisive results, giving the defender some respite. IMHO these games are a bit lacking in this department (sure you can exhaust your hardcoded resource production, and morale changes are hardcoded to show a decline for the Axis in late war), but to make a game respond to ahistorical situations the mechanics for that must be more generic and able to adapt, yet they should contain the idea of exhaustion, in order to prevent excessive snowballing.

(in reply to robinsa)

Post #: 1077

RE: WitE 2 - 9/30/2016 2:42:15 PM

Stelteck

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline

Good point about exhaustion.

Maybe unit's fatigue shall display that more. Fatigue could be rebalanced to be more the results of combat (and especially offensive combat) than the results of movement, and to be more difficult to clear, and to have more influence in combat value especially on offensive.

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 1078

RE: WitE 2 - 10/1/2016 10:04:24 PM

EwaldvonKleist

Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline

Morveal, there is some truth in your comment but exhaustion is not that important here.
There are two kinds of exhaustion:
Physical: The country has no manpower, tanks, steel etc. left.
Psychological: The troops lose the will to fight and revolt, the population loses it and starts a strike or the politicians lose the will to fight it out and surrender.
The physical exhaustion is included in every game with production (like WITE 1, WITW and WITE 2). Late war the germans run out of stuff, if the soviets lost too much they do so too.
Psychological: Something like this happened multiple times in history, but WW2 was a total war. There was no way that Stalin and Hitler can make peace, especially because Hitler was determined to wipe out the "jewish bolshevistic plot to overtake the world". On the other side, Stalin would have never accepted an unconditional surrender, which was the only thing which could have satisfied Hitler.
My point is: Political exhaustion is close to impossible in this case. Psychological attrition of the armed forces/civilians is possible, but both Hitler and Stalin had established a system of fear and total control. A nationwide uprising in the soviet union was very very unlikely, for germany we have evidence that the Hitler system worked until the end (in both cases a "black swan" event could of course change things, but if we base the game on what actually happened we have to assume uprisings as unlikely).

What you say Morvael is true for napoleonic battles but not for Hitler vs. Stalin in my opinion.

The thing preventing too much snowballing is the logistics side: Every advance speed is limited by rail conversion speed and rail capacity/truck capacity, therefore the defender gets some time to prepare the next stand.

(in reply to Stelteck)

Post #: 1079

RE: WitE 2 - 10/1/2016 10:19:55 PM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

I was thinking of another type of exhaustion, something between the two, where all your soldiers have PTSD, but you cannot replace them, because you lack manpower. So this isn't short term fatigue (that exists in WitE as "FAT") nor the global war exhaustion (that exists in WitE as hardcoded morale change), but something that makes your units worn out without the ability to fully rest them, unless you remove them from battle for half a year or more. The troops are resigned to their fate, some get mad and kill themselves, some go berserk and die etc. Guess such units of near-zombies are less effective than fresh ones.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)

Post #: 1080