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RE: WitE 2 - 12/27/2016 10:55:02 PM   
tortugapower

 

Posts: 264
Joined: 12/17/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RoflCopter4
The most recent answer to this that I've seen is a polite but firm no. As with every dev since the ancient Romans invented the early internet, the official line is that it will be done when it's done.


That's fine if that's the official line. There are many games which put tentative ETAs at least, but I get your point. I also wish there was a way to get an unofficial date (like the one a person working on a project creates in his or her own head), without people throwing it back in the developer's face (which is how we got into this mess to begin with, I guess).

Nonetheless, I'd love a sticky on this forum which will make updating myself a lot easier... and it'd be especially useful if there's not even a very muddy timeline for coming back and checking on its progress.

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Post #: 1231
RE: WitE 2 - 12/28/2016 12:15:14 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		WitE Released Dec 2010
WitW Released Dec 2014
WitE2 Release ??

Maybe the start of a trend, although I can assure you one that's unintentional. There is a post somewhere in here where I went into a little more detail about why it might take more or less than 4 years, but really in the final analysis the "it's done when it's done" pretty much sums up where we're at. When we're alpha testing the full war (right now just testing 1941 other than AI vs AI tests), that will be a major milestone. When we're beta testing instead of alpha testing, that will be another major milestone. We do appreciate the interest and I wish I could give you a better idea of the timing.

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Post #: 1232
RE: WitE 2 - 12/28/2016 8:42:47 AM   
tortugapower

 

Posts: 264
Joined: 12/17/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

WitE Released Dec 2010
WitW Released Dec 2014
WitE2 Release ??

Maybe the start of a trend, although I can assure you one that's unintentional. There is a post somewhere in here where I went into a little more detail about why it might take more or less than 4 years, but really in the final analysis the "it's done when it's done" pretty much sums up where we're at. When we're alpha testing the full war (right now just testing 1941 other than AI vs AI tests), that will be a major milestone. When we're beta testing instead of alpha testing, that will be another major milestone. We do appreciate the interest and I wish I could give you a better idea of the timing.



Thanks Joel.

What you said is almost exactly what I was asking for -- nothing official, just a very rough approximate. (Put in statistical terms, the expectation value or mean, even if the variation is years large.)

And, still, if a sticky happened to be made to make future searching for this content a bit easier...
But perhaps its intentionally hidden for now. I'm no marketing expert.

Keep up the great work, gentlemen.


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Matrix Games video tutorials:
Distant Worlds Universe
Advanced Tactics Gold

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Post #: 1233
RE: WitE 2 - 12/28/2016 8:52:28 AM   
No idea

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline 		One thingn, in WITE resources (the lack of them, especially crude) isnt that important simply because both sides get more than enough of them. This makes real life operations like the german 1942 ones pointless, as there is no real reason to take the Caucasus olidfields, when irl their taking would have posed problems to the allies war effort, as more shipping would have been needed to carry crude to the SU in order to keep the soviet war machine at the historical speed, so, overall, either the soviets would have been hampered or the west allies would have been (due to less shipping available for their ops).

In the game nothing of this happens. It may be a bit late to twaek the resource system to make resources play a significant role in the game, but at least giving the oilfields more victory points (to reflect their importance) would give some reason for the german player to concentrate his efforts during 1942 in the Caucasus instead of Moscow (if it hasnt fallen).

(in reply to tortugapower)
Post #: 1234
RE: WitE 2 - 12/28/2016 9:27:46 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

but at least giving the oilfields more victory points (to reflect their importance) would give some reason for the german player to concentrate his efforts during 1942 in the Caucasus instead of Moscow (if it hasnt fallen).

I've long been of the same opinion. VPs in the deep south should be balanced so that if the whole lot are taken you can limp over the 260 line without having to take Moscow. Some of those VPs should be in the Crimea too.
Something like this. +3 for Baku oilfield. +1 for every other oilfield. +3 for Sevastopol. +1 for Simferopol and +1 for Kerch. That's +12 in total.

The South is such a tough nut to crack that Moscow would still be the prefered option for most Axis players, but it would become a reasonable alternative. At the moment I feel that Case Blue is only a realistic option if the game is virtually won already. In fact attemping it might turn a virtually won game into a draw or worse.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 12/28/2016 9:28:55 AM >

(in reply to No idea)
Post #: 1235
RE: WitE 2 - 12/28/2016 11:36:55 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Bitter End is a campaign with VP and it has majority of targets in the south (though of course North and Center contains two biggest prizes).

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 1236
RE: WitE 2 - 12/28/2016 1:59:55 PM   
comte


Posts: 2358
Joined: 2/4/2009
From: Be'eri, Hadarom, Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tortugapower


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

WitE Released Dec 2010
WitW Released Dec 2014
WitE2 Release ??

Maybe the start of a trend, although I can assure you one that's unintentional. There is a post somewhere in here where I went into a little more detail about why it might take more or less than 4 years, but really in the final analysis the "it's done when it's done" pretty much sums up where we're at. When we're alpha testing the full war (right now just testing 1941 other than AI vs AI tests), that will be a major milestone. When we're beta testing instead of alpha testing, that will be another major milestone. We do appreciate the interest and I wish I could give you a better idea of the timing.



Thanks Joel.

What you said is almost exactly what I was asking for -- nothing official, just a very rough approximate. (Put in statistical terms, the expectation value or mean, even if the variation is years large.)

And, still, if a sticky happened to be made to make future searching for this content a bit easier...
But perhaps its intentionally hidden for now. I'm no marketing expert.

Keep up the great work, gentlemen.



Hi Tortuga I am a fan of your Youtube video's Are you going to start a GG WITE lets play?

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(in reply to tortugapower)
Post #: 1237
RE: WitE 2 - 12/29/2016 11:47:04 PM   
tortugapower

 

Posts: 264
Joined: 12/17/2015
Status: offline 		Hi Aces,

Yes, this is indeed the idea/hope.

Cheers,
Tortuga

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Post #: 1238
RE: WitE 2 - 12/30/2016 2:35:38 PM   
No idea

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Bitter End is a campaign with VP and it has majority of targets in the south (though of course North and Center contains two biggest prizes).


Yes, but that only partially solves the issue of resources not having any importance due to its plentyness,, when it was the whole point for Hitler to invade the SU (and to start the whole war, lebensraum wasnt just more land, but land with enough important resources so that the reich could carve its place in the global world)

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Post #: 1239
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 1:36:21 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline 		Forgive me if someone posted something similar.

"Morale gain and loss National Level"

War is a Political act with a political purpose. To achieve this goal a military strategist would have to devise the best way to defeat a foe. The two ways to defeat a foe is to attack their “means” (i.e. resources) or their “will” to fight (i.e. morale). The Germans has a resource means disparity with the Soviet Union although the Germans do possess a quality edge and will (high morale). Just as a physicist uses the equation E=mc2 as the most important equation for everything they do. A Military strategist uses the following equation; “Power of Resistance = (means) X (will) “ (read this as power of resistance equals means times will). If at any time the “means” or the “will” side of this equation goes to zero the side surrenders.

Thus, you can attack the “means” side of this equation by attacking the resources or the “will” side of this equation by attacking morale. Unfortunately, the game allows unlimited attacking of the “means” side of this equation. The “will” side of the equation you can’t do anything about (I’m not talking about unit morale but national morale). Not to mention will (morale) is hard coded into the game with too many static events pertaining to a factual calendar of events of what we know has transpired in our past of WW2. When in actuality events should change based on the “players” movements in the current game and not hard coded to go up or down on a specific date of our factual history of WW2.

I truly believe WiTE2 needs to initiate a way to regulate the “will” side of this equation that comes from the American War College. The game can have certain cities worth so many Morale points so if you take a city your morale will go up and the other side morale down (could be for a specified number of turns). Gain Morale/subtract morale based on large battles (over 100k for instance) and/or after so many lost or won battles. The hard coding of the morale going up for Russians and Down for Germans should be tied to actual events that are playing out in the game being played. Not by a factual calendar of events of what we know transpired and totally unrelated to the game being played.


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Post #: 1240
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 7:24:09 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Something like that would be a good idea but difficult to balance. There is already a lot of snowball mecanism in the game.

Maybe the decay of german morale could be a little mitigated by holding some geographical objectives, and same thing for the raise of soviet morale.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 1241
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 7:24:48 AM   
RoflCopter4

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 4/19/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Forgive me if someone posted something similar.

"Morale gain and loss National Level"

War is a Political act with a political purpose. To achieve this goal a military strategist would have to devise the best way to defeat a foe. The two ways to defeat a foe is to attack their “means” (i.e. resources) or their “will” to fight (i.e. morale). The Germans has a resource means disparity with the Soviet Union although the Germans do possess a quality edge and will (high morale). Just as a physicist uses the equation E=mc2 as the most important equation for everything they do. A Military strategist uses the following equation; “Power of Resistance = (means) X (will) “ (read this as power of resistance equals means times will). If at any time the “means” or the “will” side of this equation goes to zero the side surrenders.

Thus, you can attack the “means” side of this equation by attacking the resources or the “will” side of this equation by attacking morale. Unfortunately, the game allows unlimited attacking of the “means” side of this equation. The “will” side of the equation you can’t do anything about (I’m not talking about unit morale but national morale). Not to mention will (morale) is hard coded into the game with too many static events pertaining to a factual calendar of events of what we know has transpired in our past of WW2. When in actuality events should change based on the “players” movements in the current game and not hard coded to go up or down on a specific date of our factual history of WW2.

I truly believe WiTE2 needs to initiate a way to regulate the “will” side of this equation that comes from the American War College. The game can have certain cities worth so many Morale points so if you take a city your morale will go up and the other side morale down (could be for a specified number of turns). Gain Morale/subtract morale based on large battles (over 100k for instance) and/or after so many lost or won battles. The hard coding of the morale going up for Russians and Down for Germans should be tied to actual events that are playing out in the game being played. Not by a factual calendar of events of what we know transpired and totally unrelated to the game being played.



National morale in the game does not represent "morale" as it is usually understood, but rather more like a doctrinal standard of training and quality for new recruits before they are sent to the front. Hence why experience is capped at morale. Germany's national morale degrades because they started recruiting literally everyone who could more or less hold a gun, whereas the Soviets increased their quality as the war went on.

Given this, I have no idea why newly reformed units start at such a low morale and experience. Seems inconsistent.

< Message edited by RoflCopter4 -- 1/5/2017 7:25:15 AM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 1242
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 7:29:31 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Actual frontline experience is what matters most, not training experience.

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Post #: 1243
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 10:17:29 AM   
No idea

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Something like that would be a good idea but difficult to balance. There is already a lot of snowball mecanism in the game.

Maybe the decay of german morale could be a little mitigated by holding some geographical objectives, and same thing for the raise of soviet morale.


I agree with this post

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Post #: 1244
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 10:28:02 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RoflCopter4

...

National morale in the game does not represent "morale" as it is usually understood, but rather more like a doctrinal standard of training and quality for new recruits before they are sent to the front. Hence why experience is capped at morale. Germany's national morale degrades because they started recruiting literally everyone who could more or less hold a gun, whereas the Soviets increased their quality as the war went on.

Given this, I have no idea why newly reformed units start at such a low morale and experience. Seems inconsistent.


I'd agree with your first statementm that NM in the game is not just morale but a mixture of factors. Not sure this is true:

quote:

whereas the Soviets increased their quality as the war went on


Plenty of records suggest that many Soviet formations resorted to 'local' recruitment to fill out their ranks - look at the way the southern Ukrainian Fronts strengthened between the end of the 43-44 battles and the August 44 invasion of Romania. Given they were recruiting from an area that had been fought over twice, under axis rule for over 2 years etc, they took anybody they could. The only advantage they had was the ability to spend some time on training and to integrate these new 'recruits' into relatively experienced units.

More generally, there is a view in WiTE, created by Pelton and often repeated, that morale is the key variable. I'd agree its important (and think its too important and too blunt but that is a different issue). If you play WiTW you'll start to see that more factors are equally important (supply has a much more important role as does fatigue than they do in WiTE) and WiTE2 is developing other key issues (see the earlier discussions in this thread about preparation points). In effect, NM is going to be less dominant in any case, so the current rather messy model may well work better as you'll need to think about far more than just racking up wins or avoiding defeats as the game develops. The depot system for supply and the need to rest for an offensive produce very different conceptions of what is critical and this changes as the game develops.


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Post #: 1245
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 10:55:43 AM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		There has been quite a lot of debate on this in the WitE2 Dev Forum.

You may also have seen this thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4170950


_____________________________

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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 1246
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 12:01:03 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RoflCopter4

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Forgive me if someone posted something similar.

"Morale gain and loss National Level"

War is a Political act with a political purpose. To achieve this goal a military strategist would have to devise the best way to defeat a foe. The two ways to defeat a foe is to attack their “means” (i.e. resources) or their “will” to fight (i.e. morale). The Germans has a resource means disparity with the Soviet Union although the Germans do possess a quality edge and will (high morale). Just as a physicist uses the equation E=mc2 as the most important equation for everything they do. A Military strategist uses the following equation; “Power of Resistance = (means) X (will) “ (read this as power of resistance equals means times will). If at any time the “means” or the “will” side of this equation goes to zero the side surrenders.

Thus, you can attack the “means” side of this equation by attacking the resources or the “will” side of this equation by attacking morale. Unfortunately, the game allows unlimited attacking of the “means” side of this equation. The “will” side of the equation you can’t do anything about (I’m not talking about unit morale but national morale). Not to mention will (morale) is hard coded into the game with too many static events pertaining to a factual calendar of events of what we know has transpired in our past of WW2. When in actuality events should change based on the “players” movements in the current game and not hard coded to go up or down on a specific date of our factual history of WW2.

I truly believe WiTE2 needs to initiate a way to regulate the “will” side of this equation that comes from the American War College. The game can have certain cities worth so many Morale points so if you take a city your morale will go up and the other side morale down (could be for a specified number of turns). Gain Morale/subtract morale based on large battles (over 100k for instance) and/or after so many lost or won battles. The hard coding of the morale going up for Russians and Down for Germans should be tied to actual events that are playing out in the game being played. Not by a factual calendar of events of what we know transpired and totally unrelated to the game being played.



National morale in the game does not represent "morale" as it is usually understood, but rather more like a doctrinal standard of training and quality for new recruits before they are sent to the front. Hence why experience is capped at morale. Germany's national morale degrades because they started recruiting literally everyone who could more or less hold a gun, whereas the Soviets increased their quality as the war went on.

Given this, I have no idea why newly reformed units start at such a low morale and experience. Seems inconsistent.



The underlying question is the following, "How do you model the "will" side of the equation in this game of WiTE “Power of Resistance = (means) X (will)"? Besides an ad hoc VP condition there currently isnt a way to win by "will" nor are there pros or cons for such acts for either side.

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Post #: 1247
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 12:01:56 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: RoflCopter4

...

National morale in the game does not represent "morale" as it is usually understood, but rather more like a doctrinal standard of training and quality for new recruits before they are sent to the front. Hence why experience is capped at morale. Germany's national morale degrades because they started recruiting literally everyone who could more or less hold a gun, whereas the Soviets increased their quality as the war went on.

Given this, I have no idea why newly reformed units start at such a low morale and experience. Seems inconsistent.


I'd agree with your first statementm that NM in the game is not just morale but a mixture of factors. Not sure this is true:

quote:

whereas the Soviets increased their quality as the war went on


Plenty of records suggest that many Soviet formations resorted to 'local' recruitment to fill out their ranks - look at the way the southern Ukrainian Fronts strengthened between the end of the 43-44 battles and the August 44 invasion of Romania. Given they were recruiting from an area that had been fought over twice, under axis rule for over 2 years etc, they took anybody they could. The only advantage they had was the ability to spend some time on training and to integrate these new 'recruits' into relatively experienced units.

More generally, there is a view in WiTE, created by Pelton and often repeated, that morale is the key variable. I'd agree its important (and think its too important and too blunt but that is a different issue). If you play WiTW you'll start to see that more factors are equally important (supply has a much more important role as does fatigue than they do in WiTE) and WiTE2 is developing other key issues (see the earlier discussions in this thread about preparation points). In effect, NM is going to be less dominant in any case, so the current rather messy model may well work better as you'll need to think about far more than just racking up wins or avoiding defeats as the game develops. The depot system for supply and the need to rest for an offensive produce very different conceptions of what is critical and this changes as the game develops.




Same question as I posted above

The underlying question is the following, "How do you model the "will" side of the equation in this game of WiTE “Power of Resistance = (means) X (will)"? Besides an ad hoc VP condition there currently isnt a way to win by "will" nor are there pros or cons for such acts for either side.

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Post #: 1248
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 12:02:48 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

There has been quite a lot of debate on this in the WitE2 Dev Forum.

You may also have seen this thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4170950



Thank you Red Lancer, I will go and check this out now.

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Post #: 1249
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 1:43:47 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		I love the WITP AE system for pilots. You have a small number of trained pilots each month. But if you want more, you can but quality of pilots decrease a lot.

We could imagine a system when national moral go down only when new recruits are needed for replacement, at least for germany.

German player start the war with the current army, but very, very little replacements. If he need more, he have to pay it with permanent national moral points. As example (only example, the proper number have to be carefully examined) one point for 100K new recruits.
At any time the player could choose to pay to get new replacements. Or chose not to and get nearly nothing.

Maybe the cost for new replacements have to increase with time as increasing men are required to work in the factories with time to rise the prodution.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 1/5/2017 1:50:02 PM >

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Post #: 1250
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 4:57:32 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

I love the WITP AE system for pilots. You have a small number of trained pilots each month. But if you want more, you can but quality of pilots decrease a lot.


WitW and WitE2 has a similar system

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

We could imagine a system when national moral go down only when new recruits are needed for replacement, at least for germany.

German player start the war with the current army, but very, very little replacements. If he need more, he have to pay it with permanent national moral points. As example (only example, the proper number have to be carefully examined) one point for 100K new recruits.
At any time the player could choose to pay to get new replacements. Or chose not to and get nearly nothing.

Maybe the cost for new replacements have to increase with time as increasing men are required to work in the factories with time to rise the prodution.


This is exactly what I have been advocating.


_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 1251
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 5:35:32 PM   
No idea

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 6/24/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

I love the WITP AE system for pilots. You have a small number of trained pilots each month. But if you want more, you can but quality of pilots decrease a lot.

We could imagine a system when national moral go down only when new recruits are needed for replacement, at least for germany.

German player start the war with the current army, but very, very little replacements. If he need more, he have to pay it with permanent national moral points. As example (only example, the proper number have to be carefully examined) one point for 100K new recruits.
At any time the player could choose to pay to get new replacements. Or chose not to and get nearly nothing.

Maybe the cost for new replacements have to increase with time as increasing men are required to work in the factories with time to rise the prodution.


It seems a good idea. But instead of 1 point for every 100k casualties, I think the werhmatch should also get some bodies per month (lets say 5000). If you dont lose more than 5000 no problem, if you suffer more than 5000, the casualties above 5000 start counting towards the morale loss.

Ps. All are made up numbers given so that I can explain the example.

Ps 2. The soviets should get different magnitudes for loss of morale per casualties or they would end at very low morale soon.

< Message edited by No idea -- 1/5/2017 5:37:08 PM >

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Post #: 1252
RE: WitE 2 - 1/5/2017 11:41:34 PM   
robinsa


Posts: 183
Joined: 7/24/2013
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

I love the WITP AE system for pilots. You have a small number of trained pilots each month. But if you want more, you can but quality of pilots decrease a lot.

We could imagine a system when national moral go down only when new recruits are needed for replacement, at least for germany.

German player start the war with the current army, but very, very little replacements. If he need more, he have to pay it with permanent national moral points. As example (only example, the proper number have to be carefully examined) one point for 100K new recruits.
At any time the player could choose to pay to get new replacements. Or chose not to and get nearly nothing.

Maybe the cost for new replacements have to increase with time as increasing men are required to work in the factories with time to rise the prodution.

I think this sounds like a good game system that gives the player interesting options. From a historical perspective I think its the casualties that should lover morale, not the reinforcements. If anything reinforcing with new men should boost frontline morale. The quality of the troops is however something that should decrease when new men are called in as they lack experience and are of lower "quality" (young able men are drafted first etc).

(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 1253
RE: WitE 2 - 1/8/2017 6:04:01 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Interesting thoughts on National Morale and recruit quality. Isn't that just part of the equation, however?

I agree National Morale and Combat Efficiency are basically mean the same thing. German Morale should decline, not just because the Germans were lowering their recruiting standards as the war went on, but also because the leadership cadre were becoming diluted. German small unit leadership was still strong, but eroded as the war went on and guys got killed off. The other factor for the Wehrmacht is that they began inducting alot of recruits from conquered areas that had much less ardor for the Nazi cause.

On the Russian side, just ditching the political commissars no doubt increased unit efficiency (i.e. "Morale" in game terms). In addition, the Soviets ditched pre-war doctrines that were dumb, and developed new, effective ones.

US Army basically had the same quality recruits the whole war, what improved was leadership and doctrine as US army learned trial by fire, and appropriately US Army morale increased to a 1945 peak

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Post #: 1254
RE: WitE 2 - 1/9/2017 9:49:27 PM   
BletchleyGeek


Posts: 4713
Joined: 11/26/2009
From: Living in the fair city of Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

I love the WITP AE system for pilots. You have a small number of trained pilots each month. But if you want more, you can but quality of pilots decrease a lot.


WitW and WitE2 has a similar system

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

We could imagine a system when national moral go down only when new recruits are needed for replacement, at least for germany.

German player start the war with the current army, but very, very little replacements. If he need more, he have to pay it with permanent national moral points. As example (only example, the proper number have to be carefully examined) one point for 100K new recruits.
At any time the player could choose to pay to get new replacements. Or chose not to and get nearly nothing.

Maybe the cost for new replacements have to increase with time as increasing men are required to work in the factories with time to rise the prodution.


This is exactly what I have been advocating.



Such a system neeeds to take into account that the resilience of the German Army is explained by the existence of the Ersatzheer and the Feldersatz units. No other military in WW2 had a system like that (I think). Here there's a nice summary about the role that organisation played, with plenty of references for double checking:

http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations/145-germany-heer/heer-unsorted/4338-the-german-replacement-army-1939-to-1945

This system totally broke down in the Autumn of 1944, as the post July 20th purge and the massive gaps created by the disasters suffered by the German army both in the West and East effectively killed the Ersatzheer, and the notion of Feldersatz Bn was abandoned, so field training fell under the responsibility of combat units. Training standards were very high up until then.

If you go for the "1 to 3" proportion mentioned in one of the quotations above, that would mean that a pool of relatively well trained 700,000 soldiers available for the OstHeer alone, throughout 1941 to 1944. Which does sound like a lot, until one considers that the estimates for German casualties in the Eastern front hover around the 6 million, counting KIA, MIA & POW and WIA.


_____________________________


(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 1255
RE: WitE 2 - 1/11/2017 4:57:38 AM   
robinsa


Posts: 183
Joined: 7/24/2013
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		It would be interesting if the recruits drafted were distributed like, I don't know, maybe a normal distribution (?) and the more you draw the lower the quality of the mean will be. Then the player would be allowed to set units requested reinforcement quality to "Low, Normal or High" and the recruits would be divided out according to this. Perhaps there could be two options for "reinforcements priority" (numbers) and another for "quality" to allow the player to customize what units get effective recruits and which units simply get the leftovers. That way the player could better customize where he wants to focus his strength.

An allocation system like this could be constructed similar to the research system in rule the waves.

... Then again this might just be another cumbersome interface without much added value.

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 1256
RE: WitE 2 - 1/15/2017 10:27:23 PM   
Tejszd

 

Posts: 3437
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		Has there been any discussion about an events/news pop up at the start of each turn to make things easier (especially for new players)?

Example usage;
- HQ/units activating and or appearing
- HQ/units that will be withdrawn in the coming week. Clicking on the unit name takes you to the unit.
- start of production of new model/plane/tank/etc. So players could set a unit to refit.

Edit: I guess there is the event log already, I just need to develop the habit of going to it each turn...


< Message edited by Tejszd -- 1/16/2017 5:08:26 AM >

(in reply to robinsa)
Post #: 1257
RE: WitE 2 - 1/25/2017 4:08:52 PM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline 		I've only read about a fifth of this long thread to date, so sorry if I'm repetitive.

I would echo those who hope that something will be done to prevent the large Lvov pocket.

More generally, playability could be increased if something would block the Axis player from calculating, recalculating, and refining the initial move to the nth degree. There could be some variability in strength of some individual Soviet units behind the lines. Alternately, there could be a very limited Russian pre-move. For instance, most Soviet unit would be categorically frozen but some of the front line reserves could be "eligible" to move. Each "eligible" unit could have a 2/3's chance of being frozen and otherwise receive a fraction of its MPs. Just enough variability that the Axis player faced some of the normal constraints in working out a move and couldn't follow an identical script each game.

WITW has made cut-off units stronger and more durable. That's all to the good. Chaos pointed out a different issue indirectly which I bring up with trepidation. On the Russian front, particularly in the first year, a substantial fraction of the cut-off personnel eventually returned to Soviet control (1/10, 1/5??). One wouldn't want to add this in in a way that threw off play balance, and it may be modelled indirectly in the way Soviet manpower develops, anyway. Whether a refinement here would be good would depend on how other elements of the combat develop - e.g., is the casualty rate in lost battles increased? One might balance off with increased losses to routed units, whether that was dependent on the mobility or remaining movement points of the victors or not.

The comments on ground support by air are interesting. There seems a great deal of support for the idea that air power is too effective at kills on armored targets. You can't go too far in nerfing air power, though. It seems clear that the presence or absence of air power was huge, including immobilizing mobile divisions. Air power was enough to guard Patton's flanks the tanks don't run or fight without ammo and gas, and the change of weather seems to have been huge in the Ardennes campaign. Perhaps one needs fewer kills and more disablements of AFVs by air power as well as more attrition of the internal supplies and MPs of the fighting unit, particularly on interdiction assaults on moving units. I suspect that a lot of the breakdowns of German tanks were caused directly or indirectly by air power.

(in reply to Tejszd)
Post #: 1258
RE: WitE 2 - 1/25/2017 4:55:23 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Regarding Air Power: More later, but: There was not that much air Power on the eastern front. Even when concentrated for major battles, not comparable to Normandy.
Nobody doubts the many effects of air power, but the story of aircraft as flying anti tank guns.

(in reply to wpurdom)
Post #: 1259
RE: WitE 2 - 1/25/2017 5:11:06 PM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline 		I'm all in favor of avoiding snowballing. The game engine overestimates the value of experience in combat after initial exposure. (But gamers love this because success makes better units so they can improve their units by cleverness). A well-trained soldier picks up most of the advantage of experience in actual combat in the first couple of weeks or so of being under fire. There certainly is some support that many units also had a initial sub-par (short) period - look at the 79th and 90th divisions in Normandy. Not much evidence of pick-up thereafter for the individual or individual unit, and at the individual level combat fatigue is going to limit effectiveness after a while. And success is not a block to combat fatigue. (Clear-cut defeat, I'm sure, can add to combat fatigue).

Some examples to think about: in the Civil War fresh units were often more effective than experienced ones on attack, during the 1864 both armies in the East became combat ineffective for offensive operations. Does anybody think the Stonewall brigade was better man for man in July 1863 than they were in the Valley campaign?

Much of the advantage in experience goes to the units that aren't actually in combat. Think of the 104th Timberwolf division - it started out as a superior division on its first day of combat because it absorbed the lessons of those before it. The 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th Marine Divisions didn't need experience to excel either.

More specific to the Germans, if they want to have a higher morale, they need to draft fewer people in 1944. They were scraping the bottom of the barrel. there is no real evidence that the Germans lost morale to anything other than combat fatigue, they diluted their officer corps, had inferior training as compared to before, and were scraping the bottom going with oldersters, youngsters, and foriegners - older folk just aren't as good on the front line - at Guadalcanal, for instance, some of the best Marines, certainly the most experienced, over 25-30 just couldn't handle the physical and mental strain. If there were to be any variable input into national morale it should not be "success" or casualties inflicted, but only overall theater casualties incurred.

< Message edited by wpurdom -- 1/25/2017 5:24:19 PM >

(in reply to wpurdom)
Post #: 1260
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