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RE: WitE 2 - 1/9/2018 7:07:15 AM

Stelteck

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I sometimes play with the idea of something like that :
- German morale do not go down, but the german army have no replacement, or really, really little. (Not taking into account of course Hiwi, returning for disabled, etc..).

If the german army want replacement, they have to pay it with national morale points... (Price to be discussed. Maybe 1 points for 100K or 200K men).

(in reply to uw06670)

Post #: 1441

RE: WitE 2 - 1/9/2018 7:13:10 AM

No idea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

No one official or unofficial commented on my suggestion. Either everyone thinks it was totally dumb, or (my preference), everyone agrees it is totally awesome.

"I wish there was some way to modify morale adjustment, for achieving certain objectives, rather than the blanket "its 1942, so your morale goes down".

For example, if Germany had captured Moscow and Leningrad in 41, would their morale sink the same in 1942 as it did? Right now WITE has hard coded results REGARDLESS of how good or bad you are doing relative to history. Wish that could change in WITE2."

The problem with this are snowball effects. The more you conquer, the easier is to keep on conquering.

I think conquering important places should come with its own, real effects. Getting Moscow should disrupt soviet communication lines (and perhaps halving APs gain for a while?). Getting the south all the way to the Caucasus should give you resources which should be very needed for the germans (currently you dont have any problems with resources as Germany. Even the soviets should run into some fuel problems if they lose the Caucasus. They got a good % of its crude production from the Caucasus, after all).

(in reply to Wheat)

Post #: 1442

RE: WitE 2 - 1/9/2018 9:03:24 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

No one official or unofficial commented on my suggestion. Either everyone thinks it was totally dumb, or (my preference), everyone agrees it is totally awesome.

"I wish there was some way to modify morale adjustment, for achieving certain objectives, rather than the blanket "its 1942, so your morale goes down".

For example, if Germany had captured Moscow and Leningrad in 41, would their morale sink the same in 1942 as it did? Right now WITE has hard coded results REGARDLESS of how good or bad you are doing relative to history. Wish that could change in WITE2."

well its been made clear the game is still in alpha, so I doubt that much has been absolutely ruled in/out.

Beyond that, I think there are two problems with this.

First, and this affects WiTE as well NM is probably mislabelled. Its meant to reflect base training etc as much as some concept of morale as such. So essentially Germany is pulling in more and more people not best suited to roles in combat infantry and training them less and less as the war goes on. Now if their version of Barbarossa had any basis in reality this wouldn't have mattered as the collapse the Soviet Union would have enabled a much reduced military commitment simply to hold down the conquered territory. On the other side the Soviets are able to offer better training than their approach in late 1941 of essentially chucking fresh recruits into a formation and committing it to combat (plus also relearning their own doctrines etc). Again, of course, this depended on actually holding the line in 1941.

Second, I suspect is the issue of modelling and balance. The problem would be that you identify a set of locations/period of time ... its not that hard to imagine the more 'results-focussed' players then distorting game play to achieve precisely those affects.

So I agree the hard wired shifts are frustrating - though I think the title NM doesn't help here - but not so easily convinced that the alternatives would actually work either

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

I sometimes play with the idea of something like that :
- German morale do not go down, but the german army have no replacement, or really, really little. (Not taking into account of course Hiwi, returning for disabled, etc..).

If the german army want replacement, they have to pay it with national morale points... (Price to be discussed. Maybe 1 points for 100K or 200K men).

Worth noting that WiTE2 will have events. No idea how far this could be pushed but it maybe feasible to create an event along these lines, but that would be a matter of modding the base game?

< Message edited by loki100 -- 1/9/2018 9:06:14 AM >

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Post #: 1443

RE: WitE 2 - 1/9/2018 3:22:33 PM

RedLancer

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NM is no longer hard coded and can be adjusted in the editor. I'd like NM linked to available manpower but even I don't get all I'd like.

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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 1444

RE: WitE 2 - 1/10/2018 7:08:05 AM

No idea

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Any chance we get DDs (developer diaries) anytime soon?

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Post #: 1445

RE: WitE 2 - 1/10/2018 9:24:09 AM

RedLancer

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I don't think any of us has the time to write a diary otherwise we'll be adding another year to development. We are making progress on a number of fronts as Joel wrote not so long ago. One recent change that might interest people is that we have increased the cost to move through Heavy Woods (Forest) depending on the road value of the hex. This mainly effects the terrain approaching Leningrad and north of V Luki. This means we have to show roads a bit better. Here's a screenshot I just happened to have close to hand but we still have a bit more work to do. Hope you like the new look swamps too.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Red Lancer -- 1/10/2018 9:31:11 AM >

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John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 1446

RE: WitE 2 - 1/10/2018 11:22:03 AM

No idea

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Interesting thing about roads (altough I agree there should be a way to make them more clear at a glance. Perhaps a new "road map" mode?). I assume taking roads will increase movement in all kinds of terrain and not just heavy woods? (Or you will have you movement decreased in case you dont take one)

Ps. The new swamps look better. And the double and single rail lanes look good too.

Ps 2. I assume the increased cost of movement though heavy woods depending on the road that is taken will also affect supply. Am I right?

< Message edited by No idea -- 1/10/2018 11:24:36 AM >

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Post #: 1447

RE: WitE 2 - 1/10/2018 11:32:18 AM

SparkleyTits

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That looks really nice & I like the idea of roads adding another layer onto existing strategems

The landbridge is also looking like a much more deadly obstacle in the right hands now

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Post #: 1448

RE: WitE 2 - 1/10/2018 12:07:12 PM

RedLancer

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There is a new road map mode that highlights the roads but it is likely to change from hex shading to a more distinct version of the road art.

The additional costs for hexes with poorer roads only comes into play with weather and dense terrain (forest, sand and mountain). This means that we now have mountain passes that are separate from rail lines. The costs do effect supply so advancing beyond the Volkhov river is challenging and the hook around the bottom of Lake Ilmen with armour is nigh on impossible. There is also a new administrative road movement rule where units moving in rear areas get reductions in movement costs if there are roads to mimic moving in convoy rather than a tactical advance.

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John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to SparkleyTits)

Post #: 1449

RE: WitE 2 - 1/10/2018 7:40:35 PM

uw06670

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Is it weird for me to get excited about virtual roads?

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Post #: 1450

RE: WitE 2 - 1/18/2018 3:21:56 AM

uw06670

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Want to throw this issue out, with an eye towards 2.0

Was playing Soviet vs. human a while back (v 1.9 i think) and one of the things I did was put all my long range bombers in the Crimea and bomb the hell out of Bucharest oil or fuel facilities every turn (Polesti has too much AA). Eventually the % damage was getting quite high and probably there were a few casualties. My opponent never mentioned it (positive or negative) and didn't put more AA or aircraft in the area.

In game terms, it probably didn't make any impact to him, (and he might not have even noticed). If this is the case, then I suggest the game is flawed. True the fuel might not be a big deal short term, but shouldn't there be a "cost" politically for this city getting 100s of bombers attacking it every week? Wouldn't the Romanian leadership suffer and shouldn't national morale go down?

In 2.0 how would this play out? I know air war itself is different, but thinking more of the ramifications for this type of attack.

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Post #: 1451

RE: WitE 2 - 1/18/2018 7:14:28 AM

martinsmit

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Thank you for giving us at least some information about the game. The new map will be beautiful!

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Post #: 1452

RE: WitE 2 - 1/18/2018 8:35:53 AM

Denniss

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Fuel is not really an issue in WitE1 as both sides usually swim in an ocean of fuel. It's hard to fix as one may easily break smaller scenarios.
In WitW the fuel situation is already more criticial and will be so in WitE2.

If you were the general taking away long range bombers from supplying partisans to useless bombing of distant cities Stalin may have ordered to arrest and kill you. Political issues are always on both sides.

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Post #: 1453

RE: WitE 2 - 1/21/2018 1:10:02 PM

martinsmit

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In WitE2 whether it will be possible to switch to the metric system? all these miles, feet, inches, not very comfortable

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Post #: 1454

RE: WitE 2 - 1/21/2018 1:20:45 PM

Capitaine

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Isn't the map scale 1 hex = 10 miles? How would you propose that be changed?

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Post #: 1455

RE: WitE 2 - 1/21/2018 1:23:31 PM

Telemecus

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1 hex = 16.1 kilometres?

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Post #: 1456

RE: WitE 2 - 1/21/2018 5:20:48 PM

Capitaine

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Not a very round number. Not very intuitive to Americans.

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RE: WitE 2 - 1/21/2018 6:33:23 PM

Tejszd

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It�s good to hear that NM can be changed in the editor. It would be good to move all values out of the exe and to a config text file.

NM needs to link to more things.
- The date/duration of the war is a good variable and should gradually change instead of it being a specific date. Germans, in and out of the military, had started to expect a lightning war win and the civilians were asked to endure more hardships (ex. Less goods, longer shifts, etc.). Russian morale over time is a more interesting thing to debate. Should it go up or down with time? What were the expectations of the military/population? If they expected to win easily then time is negative but if they expected to lose then time is a positive....
- Losses/manpower as previously mentioned makes sense even though there is a snowball risk
- Taking key cities as previously mentioned makes sense even though there is a snowball risk. Though I guess the longer it takes the less impact it should have.

< Message edited by Tejszd -- 2/1/2018 6:04:52 AM >

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Post #: 1458

RE: WitE 2 - 1/31/2018 9:35:25 PM

821Bobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: martinsmit

In WitE2 whether it will be possible to switch to the metric system? all these miles, feet, inches, not very comfortable

Easily moddable

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Not a very round number. Not very intuitive to Americans.

True but on the other side both, Axis and Soviets were using metric system. For historical accuracy it makes more sense.

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Post #: 1459

RE: WitE 2 - 2/1/2018 7:58:14 AM

821Bobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

quote:

ORIGINAL: martinsmit

In WitE2 whether it will be possible to switch to the metric system? all these miles, feet, inches, not very comfortable

Easily moddable

Actually seems to be not true. In future I will rather keep my mouth shut.

(in reply to 821Bobo)

Post #: 1460

RE: WitE 2 - 2/1/2018 3:42:44 PM

lastkozak

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It is wonderful, that WITE2 will be created and as a result updated to the new technical methods of WITW1. I too love the idea of being able to interconnect both WITW1 with WITE2, although I have yet to hear that indeed this is the case, from a designer (such raises a lot of issues, of people wishing to create a unique strategy; War in Europe from SPI, had that flexibility; invade Italy and take the desert from them the moment Italy activates).

There are a lot of rumours on the forum, and I am unsure if their statements are paraphrased things they were told by those involved in the development of WITE2, or just their assumptions. However, it seems more and more people are sitting in anticipation, and no longer playing WITE1, and speaking of WITE1 as if it is an old program from a Commodore 64!

I can understand the need to hear from potential buyers of this new game, and create a dialogue so that people will know why it was designed the way it was, hear what things the designers should contemplate from their buyers, and the need to create hype. It would seem however, that such could result in a decrease in enthusiasm for playing WITE1, and purchasing the game.

All that said, and from what I have read on the forum, there are always going to be people who think this should be done, or this should be allowed to happen, or that is not historical, or that is way too gamey! Myself, I often see both sides to many of these discussions, and often feel that perhaps such changes could be left to the players, by having more options to choose before playing a game.

As an example; extra victory points if the Soviets or Germans try to waste units/lives, making some move, airborne and or amphib, that has no hope of doing anything other than running around and ripping up a few rail lines, or damaging a city. I know there are many more such tweaks; the invasion of Hungary, what right mind Slav would invade Hungary when they know they are isolated etc.; however the invasion of Hungary in 1941, reminds the axis to clean up behind their lines, and do not leave the opportunity open for the Soviets to do such. Again an opportunity for players to click on or off on an option; however if Soviets soldiers went into the mountains to avoid capture, could they then become partisans, where the soviet player can click to make them turn into such, or disband them in Hungary and it is assumed the troops have all deserted, but the Germans get no VPs for their loss.

Obviously many things are probably harder to do. Not sure if there has been a Topic created, to have a proper discussion of different possibilities. As I mentioned above if the games become a WIE game, I would love to play it, from the perspective of the generals, stuck following the Schickle-groobers' insane strategies, but also from the perspective that I am the Schickle-groober, and decide what gets done, what gets built, when to go to total war, and how many tanks to build versus Infantry etc.. I do suppose adding those aspects would probably result in a release date of 2025-2030?

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Post #: 1461

RE: WitE 2 - 2/1/2018 5:54:43 PM

thedoctorking

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I understand that in the current game, destroyed USSR units can turn into partisan cadres. This shouldn't be up to the player to decide, though. It depends on the unit's cadre and on luck and should be a random event.

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Post #: 1462

RE: WitE 2 - 2/1/2018 6:14:25 PM

lastkozak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

I understand that in the current game, destroyed USSR units can turn into partisan cadres. This shouldn't be up to the player to decide, though. It depends on the unit's cadre and on luck and should be a random event.

Yes, I saw that in the rule book, but it does not say how that works; if you lose a lot of units, one should have more partisans, but I have never noticed any difference in the game I play!

I am not so sure the Soviet player should not have that option, since the soviets set up many of the partisan units, supplied them and directed them when they could. The Soviet player should have the option of disbanding units in a foreign country in rough rural areas, as most likely then soldiers did all desert.

As for disbanding and forming a partisan unit; perhaps a control factor on morale; that is I could see a guard unit, going native in the woods with no real second thoughts, or an airborne cadre, whereas a bunch of recruits with pitty ass morale, would probably tell the commissar where he can put that hammer and sickle(thereby resulting in an execution)! Thus even poor morale troops would obey, but probably not be as effective.

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Post #: 1463

RE: WitE 2 - 2/17/2018 1:34:53 PM

Capitaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

I don't think any of us has the time to write a diary otherwise we'll be adding another year to development. We are making progress on a number of fronts as Joel wrote not so long ago. One recent change that might interest people is that we have increased the cost to move through Heavy Woods (Forest) depending on the road value of the hex. This mainly effects the terrain approaching Leningrad and north of V Luki. This means we have to show roads a bit better. Here's a screenshot I just happened to have close to hand but we still have a bit more work to do. Hope you like the new look swamps too.

I just wanted to commend the team for including some roads in WitE2. Even at this scale I feel like they are material to the simulation. Note that games like GMT's "Ukraine '43" are at the same ground scale and also include the road net. To me, they make a big difference in terms of moving military units vice pushing counters. So kudos for that (now watch them be dropped from the design after all).

I don't know if the road graphics are final or not, but one recommendation: Redo the road tiles that have a large singular "bump" or "hump" in the path of the road: It creates a "wallpaper pattern" effect when more than one such tile is placed consecutively. For example, see the East-West dashed road under the blue "Dnepr" label in the screenshot. Small and more regular deviations in the straight path of a road work much better and do not give rise to the obvious wallpaper tiling effect. And I assume that disguising the tiling of terrain effects IS something we want to avoid as much as possible.

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Post #: 1464

RE: WitE 2 - 2/17/2018 3:22:06 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

One recent change that might interest people is that we have increased the cost to move through Heavy Woods (Forest) depending on the road value of the hex. This mainly effects the terrain approaching Leningrad and north of V Luki.

I can attest to the fact that heavy woods is downright brutal to try and get through. Mind you that is without even an enemy unit to further impede that movement. Proper planning ahead is a must when confronted with Heavy Woods in the wake of your offensive operations.

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Post #: 1465

RE: WitE 2 - 2/17/2018 3:38:28 PM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

The landbridge is also looking like a much more deadly obstacle in the right hands now

Others on the forums had different opinions than mine but I have found that the Land Bridge not to be the "deadly obstacle" as in WITE 1.0. Why? Because the Germans aren't limited to an extreme North route for their RR or extreme south route. They can actually project threat now in the middle with their RR and opens up many avenues of advance(i.e. through Kiev and Bryansk for instance). Time will tell though if I am wrong or not.

Plus the map, to me, has been superbly done with detail. I love it :)

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Post #: 1466

RE: WitE 2 - 4/28/2018 12:58:22 PM

MagicMissile

Posts: 1629
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From: Stockholm, Sweden
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Hello,
So it�s been 2 months any small update? Can�t wait for it to be done. Patience is a virtue I know but it�s hard :)

/MM

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Post #: 1467

RE: WitE 2 - 4/28/2018 5:07:02 PM

RedLancer

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The big reason we've not posted is that we have all been busy. There is still a fair bit to do before we get to beta but we have recently added the new campaign victory conditions and been refining the new events system.

Here's a brief explanation of the new victory rules but as always these have yet to be balanced so are very likely to change so please don�t ask me questions on the nitty gritty details.....

In game some locations are marked as victory locations and each of these places is given a base victory point value that you score on capturing it. You can also gain bonus points by capturing locations earlier than history. The earlier the better. If you are late you score less. Bonus points are never lost, but the base points are lost when the city is lost. Cities never ever taken by the Axis get maximum bonus points if captured.

Still with me? Now it gets a bit more complex.

We have also added the concept of strategic initiative which sets who scores the points. Just like history at some point the initiative will change if an early victory hasn�t occurred. There is an Axis High Water Mark score calculated against history. Initiative will switch to the Soviets between 1 Oct 1942 and 1st July 1943 if the German score is 10% or more below the Axis HWM and will certainly do so on 1st July 1943. Once initiative switches, it never switches back. At the time that the initiative changes, the Axis score is frozen, and the Soviets begin to score points (in the same way the Germans have been scoring).

To put it another way all points in the early part of the game are scored by the Germans. Any positive scoring by the Soviets become negative German points, and any negative Soviet points become positive German points. Later in the war when initiative changes, only the Soviets score points and any Axis points are given as inverse points to the Soviets.

Soviet capture bonuses can be earned when the Axis have initiative if the Soviets recapture a city. When the initiative switchover occurs, Soviet cities never taken by the Germans are considered recaptured by the Soviets at the time of the Initiative switchover for determining Soviet bonus points (further encouraging Soviet player to reach switchover early, and German to delay switchover if possible).

Finally a sudden victory check is made on the first turn of every quarter with the player with initiative gaining a sudden Decisive Victory if their current point score exceeds the points required at that time.

Finally I attach a screenshot which shows location points and the bonus points available on that turn if captured.

Attachment (1)

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WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 1468

RE: WitE 2 - 4/28/2018 11:47:29 PM

Capitaine

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Sounds very good Red Lancer. Thanks a lot for the update. Really looking forward to this.

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Post #: 1469

RE: WitE 2 - 4/29/2018 8:53:55 AM

mktours

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Thanks for briefing the new game. Is it possible to add engineer units or engineer points which could build bridges over big rivers? In Wite 1.0, the mechanized troops cross the big river in a very unrealistic way, I would like to see that players could build big bridges over big rivers at suitable crossing sites, while severely increase the cross Mp cost for mechanize units & logistics if there is no bridge or the bridge is damaged & destroyed. This could also be a automatic process, if some historical crossing sites being given a bridge facility, which could be damaged, destroyed, repaired, built, by assigned engineers points to, either manually by players or automatically by AI.
The bridge system would make the game much more realistic than Wite 1.0, I think.
In 1.0, the tank troops could cross the Dnepr River at any hex, that is unrealistic, the tanks could only cross at particular locations of the river and have to rely on the help from engineers. I really hope this bug could get fixed in 2.0.
Regarding engineer points, we could add some engineer SU under the command of HQ, which could be automatically assign to suitable crossing sites of big & small river after the site have been captured and under friendly control, and then they will build & repair the bridge facility at the hex in the logistic phase.

< Message edited by mktours -- 4/29/2018 9:37:30 AM >

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Post #: 1470