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Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in fir... - 10/4/2015 10:12:45 PM

billcorr

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OK, I'm new here. How does a player conduct an amphibious invasion? I can't seem to get my Italians to be able to invade Greece on the first turn. Nor are my Soviets able to invade Northern Turkey. I've read the manual and watched the excellent YouTube videos. But alas, my Italians and Soviets are stuck on their transports. (I'm trying to learn the rules in preparation to play 1 week straight with a friend, but at this pace, I might recommend for us to pay $8 on a Steam sale and purchase a similar WW2 grand strategy game. We could play that instead). OK, kvetching aside, how can I get the Italians and Soviets onto dry land?

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/4/2015 10:28:32 PM

paulderynck

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Each turn has several impulses. There's a special rule for the first impulse of the first turn of SO39 that only Germany can declare war (DoW). On the second impulse (= first Allied impulse), France and CW must DoW Germany, no other DoWs allowed on those first two impulses. Also are you playing with the Amphib optional rule? The SCS transport optional rule? These affect what size units can invade. there are also action limits that affect how many naval, air and land moves you can make, depending on the action "type" you choose for an impulse. There's also a pretty severe political effect to Russia DoWing Turkey. It means Germany can break the Nazi-Soviet pact whenever it likes. That is usually a very bad thing for Russia.

So:

For Italy, is it impulse 3 or after of the first turn and did you DoW Greece? For Russia, is it impulse 4 or after and did you DoW Turkey? Both countries are neutral until at war with a major power (minors like Turkey and Greece don't count). Countries that are neutral can only take Combined actions, so you might not have enough naval or land moves to do what you want.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/4/2015 11:29:28 PM >

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/4/2015 10:37:33 PM

palne

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Quick hints:

1. Make sure you are at war with the country being invaded.
2. Make sure you have available land moves with with to use when invading. (Land action= ulimited, but Soviets are likely to be able to only take combined; Combined = limited land moves...so don't use them up before the "invasion" phase of land movement. Air and Naval actions have no land moves, so no land invasions either...).
3. You can't invade Greece during the first IMPULSE, but may in subsequent impulses of the first turm---why? Because during the first impulse, GE declares on Poland, and France & UK declare on GE; and NO OTHER declarations can be made....just FYI.
4. not that this was asked for, but both of these strategies seem deeply flawed. Having Italy invade Greece without GE help can allow Allies to support Greece and probably Yugo when the time comes to invade that. Best to have Yugo conquered or at least rendered combat-ineffective before declaring war on Greece. Turkey is even less likely to be a good move as it will align with GE and allow GE easy access to both the middle east and Russia oil....But hey, I learn new things all the time....
5. If you want to get crazy have Russia declare on Romania and invade the port hex while they are lined up on the border...then swoop to capital or oil fields....either are devastating to GE if France has not fallen yet.
6. Have Italy invade Gibraltar or Malta. Both are much more likely to succeed and will cause considerable trouble to the UK... Use the GE O-chit and GE land units on the Italian amph and naval forces for another hint...! Happy hunting.

(in reply to billcorr)

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 12:02:40 AM

billcorr

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The quick responses are impressive and appreciated. It looks like the Soviets have their ducks in a row as far as I can tell. USSR is at war with Turkey. It is the 3d impulse with a 4-3 inf Army (xxxx) in the Black Sea in a 2 box plus a Soviet battleship in the 4 box to provide shore bombardment against the notional Turkish defense unit. The weather is clear. The optional amphibious rule and the SCS optional rules are not on. Is it a supply issue? There is a black dot (asterisk) located by the at-sea Infantry Army (xxxx). I tried moving the 4-3 inf unit off the ship during the conduct movement phase (also tried invading during the naval portion just to see what would happen).

Similarly, the Italians are at war with the Greeks. The Italians have a 3-3 Inf corps (XXX) off the Greek coast. An Italian battleship is afloat in the 4 box to provide fire support. I tried moving the 3-3 inf unit off the ship during the conduct movement phase (also tried invading during the naval portion just to see what would happen). The mysterious black asterisk (dot) haunts the Italian at-sea 3-3 Inf corps. The Italians are wondering (as am I), "What is this black dot that follows us at sea?"

(Palne, great hints. Very useful. At this phase, I'm just playing with my Legos to see how this game works. WiF PC game is 90% self explanatory, but the other 10% (like amphib landings) have stymied me. I just want to successfully land on hostile shores, brag to my wife "I invaded Turkey and Greece" and hope she says, "Good boy. Have a cookie!")

< Message edited by billcorr -- 10/5/2015 1:03:55 AM >

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 12:10:41 AM

brian brian

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The Italians can cause more mayhem early in the game with the SCS Transport option, so can the Russians for that matter. Then each can invade with divisions. The Unlimited Divisions option unique to MWiF would obviously help some for that, but isn't totally necessary. To get more divisions for each Major Power at set-up, Corps sized units availble from the set-up totals can be broken down into divisions before being placed on the map.

If playing without the Amphibious option, it also helps 1939/1940 invasion ideas to scrap many older TRS units so you can more likely draw the fastest ones. The TRS with greater speed can reach a higher sea-box, making invasions more likely to be successful.

(in reply to billcorr)

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 3:54:33 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: billcorr

The quick responses are impressive and appreciated. It looks like the Soviets have their ducks in a row as far as I can tell. USSR is at war with Turkey. It is the 3d impulse with a 4-3 inf Army (xxxx) in the Black Sea in a 2 box plus a Soviet battleship in the 4 box to provide shore bombardment against the notional Turkish defense unit. The weather is clear. The optional amphibious rule and the SCS optional rules are not on. Is it a supply issue? There is a black dot (asterisk) located by the at-sea Infantry Army (xxxx). I tried moving the 4-3 inf unit off the ship during the conduct movement phase (also tried invading during the naval portion just to see what would happen).

Similarly, the Italians are at war with the Greeks. The Italians have a 3-3 Inf corps (XXX) off the Greek coast. An Italian battleship is afloat in the 4 box to provide fire support. I tried moving the 3-3 inf unit off the ship during the conduct movement phase (also tried invading during the naval portion just to see what would happen). The mysterious black asterisk (dot) haunts the Italian at-sea 3-3 Inf corps. The Italians are wondering (as am I), "What is this black dot that follows us at sea?"

(Palne, great hints. Very useful. At this phase, I'm just playing with my Legos to see how this game works. WiF PC game is 90% self explanatory, but the other 10% (like amphib landings) have stymied me. I just want to successfully land on hostile shores, brag to my wife "I invaded Turkey and Greece" and hope she says, "Good boy. Have a cookie!")

There is a separate invasion step after land movement and after air transport and debark units at sea (to friendly hexes, that is) and before paradrops. MWiF religiously follows the sequence of play.

The invasion of Turkey won't be great odds. The notional gets a bonus if invaders are below the 3-box, and invading units are halved.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 3:57:06 AM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

To get more divisions for each Major Power at set-up, Corps sized units availble from the set-up totals can be broken down into divisions before being placed on the map.

Actually that's one thing MWiF doesn't offer during or after setting up. You have to wait until the end of the first turn.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 4:45:38 AM

billcorr

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Just trying to figure out how to invade a beach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

There is a separate invasion step after land movement

Sounds good. I'm just trying to unlock this mythical separate invasion step. I've heard of it. I've read about it. And my poor Italians are giving it their best shot. They just want to vacation on the beaches of Greece, no matter the tactical situation. But they can't. It is an interesting riddle to which there is an answer, I'm sure.

< Message edited by billcorr -- 10/5/2015 6:00:23 AM >

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 7:04:11 AM

Joseignacio

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Well, I read all kinda fast but...

... most people play with the optional amphibious rule of WIF. I don't have the game at hand but if it exists in MWIF and is activated...

From RAW:

quote:

22.4.12 Amphibious units (option 26)
Amphibious units (AMPH) form a new force pool. They count against ship gearing limits.
AMPHs are much like TRS units. If you are not playing with the amphibious option, you treat them as more expensive TRS.
If you are playing with the amphibious option, you can�t transport HQ-A, ARM, MECH, aircraft, or artillery units on AMPHs.
MAR and divisions can still invade from TRS units (or SCS if using option 25 ~ see 11.4.5) but other land units can only invade from AMPHs.

It means you wouldn't be able to invade with an HQ except from an amph, and I guess you don't have it by that moment.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 7:18:47 AM

Jagdtiger14

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Palne: Your #5: Its been quite common in our group for the USSR to DOW Bulgaria ("Bulgarian Gambit") early on. That creates all kinds of problems for the Axis...Romania, but also Yugoslavia.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 9:25:03 AM

billcorr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The TRS with greater speed can reach a higher sea-box, making invasions more likely to be successful.

Two possible explanations why my Italians or Soviets are not able to invade Greece or Turkey on impulse 3 or 4 on the first turn.

1. The infantry units at sea are disorganized? Perhaps that is what the black asterisk is signifying.

2. They invading units are in a too low of sea box (1 or 2). I'm not too sure about the connection between sea box and invasion success.

All, thanks for your continued input on this.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 10:02:54 AM

michaelbaldur

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deleted

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 10/5/2015 11:04:31 AM >

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 5:46:41 PM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: billcorr

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The TRS with greater speed can reach a higher sea-box, making invasions more likely to be successful.

Two possible explanations why my Italians or Soviets are not able to invade Greece or Turkey on impulse 3 or 4 on the first turn.

1. The infantry units at sea are disorganized? Perhaps that is what the black asterisk is signifying.

2. They invading units are in a too low of sea box (1 or 2). I'm not too sure about the connection between sea box and invasion success.

All, thanks for your continued input on this.

1. An orange dot mid way along the top of a unit indicates disorganization. Use the Help menu to bring up an explanation of all the status dots.

2. You can invade from any box except the zero-box, albeit with greater and greater combat penalties.

My money is on action limits. Italy can only take a Combined if neutral, which means if you've already moved two land units, the invasion step will be skipped because invading requires a land move for each unit that invades.

Edit: a CTRL-O will bring up the list of all the optional rules and which ones you have "on", so you can ensure you are not using the Amphib option. The list of all the CTRL-letter commands is included in the handy-dandy help form that shows the status dots.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/5/2015 6:50:17 PM >

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 6:43:37 PM

billcorr

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Follow up: On impulse 3 of the 2d turn, the Italians were finally permitted to conduct an amphibious invasion on Greece. Here's what I think went on: At each impulse at sea, a d10 is rolled. If the roll is equal or less than the invading unit sea box, the unit (infantry) is allowed to invade. But. I could not find that in the rules.

RECOMMENDATION 1: Describe the randomness of invasion (e.g. permitted on a certain die roll) in the rules. Perhaps they are there. But not in the Invasion section as far as I could tell. There probably is a game mechanic reason to have random invasions.

RECOMMENDATION 2 (preferred by this customer): Amphibious invasions go off as ordered. I'd prefer more certainty. The weather offers sufficient randomness when it comes to permitting invasions, recreating the D-Day'esque uncertainty.

Commentary (ok, you can call it complaining...why don't we just agree to call it editorializing): WiF for the PC is sometimes is a very mysterious game. These secret rules make other games (a global strategy WW2 game at $8 per pop during this week's Steam sale) seem more attractive.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 7:07:14 PM

paulderynck

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How'd you ever guess? It's hidden in the wording of the example under Figure IV, page 397 of the player's manual.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 7:30:34 PM

billcorr

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Hi Paul, thank you for your quick response. I looked in my very slick and professionally done hardbound rulebooks for page 397. No page 397. So, I looked at the 397th page of the online .pdf rulebook. No luck there, either. Not discouraged, I did a alt-f to find "Figure IV." Hmmm. No. I'll get the hang of it, I'm sure. Is there perhaps an alternate rule set? Again, I am grateful to you and the online community to help a newbie get through this labyrinth.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 7:42:58 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: billcorr

Follow up: On impulse 3 of the 2d turn, the Italians were finally permitted to conduct an amphibious invasion on Greece. Here's what I think went on: At each impulse at sea, a d10 is rolled. If the roll is equal or less than the invading unit sea box, the unit (infantry) is allowed to invade. But. I could not find that in the rules.

RECOMMENDATION 1: Describe the randomness of invasion (e.g. permitted on a certain die roll) in the rules. Perhaps they are there. But not in the Invasion section as far as I could tell. There probably is a game mechanic reason to have random invasions.

RECOMMENDATION 2 (preferred by this customer): Amphibious invasions go off as ordered. I'd prefer more certainty. The weather offers sufficient randomness when it comes to permitting invasions, recreating the D-Day'esque uncertainty.

Commentary (ok, you can call it complaining...why don't we just agree to call it editorializing): WiF for the PC is sometimes is a very mysterious game. These secret rules make other games (a global strategy WW2 game at $8 per pop during this week's Steam sale) seem more attractive.

There is no randomness associated with the ability of units to ATTEMPT an invasion. Whether the invasion succeeds or not depends on the land combat die roll.

Almost certainly the problem is with Action Limits for the USSR and Italy. In order to invade, you must have 1 Land Move available for each invading unit. You must also have 1 Land Attack/Combat available for each invasion (may involve multiple units).

To see the Activities available, look at the red panel in the Main form. Clicking on it will bring up more details as to what is currently available for all major powers on the phasing side.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/5/2015 9:12:59 PM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: billcorr

Hi Paul, thank you for your quick response. I looked in my very slick and professionally done hardbound rulebooks for page 397. No page 397. So, I looked at the 397th page of the online .pdf rulebook. No luck there, either. Not discouraged, I did a alt-f to find "Figure IV." Hmmm. No. I'll get the hang of it, I'm sure. Is there perhaps an alternate rule set? Again, I am grateful to you and the online community to help a newbie get through this labyrinth.

Sorry for wasting your time. After I read what you wrote, I figured you just had to be joking. So I was doing a little kidding of my own.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/6/2015 5:38:20 PM

billcorr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Almost certainly the problem is with Action Limits for the USSR and Italy. In order to invade, you must have 1 Land Move available for each invading unit. You must also have 1 Land Attack/Combat available for each invasion (may involve multiple units).

Shannon, I think you hit the nail on the head. Thanks! In hindsight, it is so obvious. I feel a bit small given this revelation about how to conduct invasions.

Paul, your insights and humor delightfully add to the tone of this thread. I'm pleased that you saw the light-heartened nature of my comments and not the lament. It was not snarkiness, but a wish for a smooth running PC game. A lot of good folks have put a lot of time into making this a good game. I think I read somewhere, "Perfection is elusive." May their reach exceed their grasp, or what's a heaven for?

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/6/2015 6:37:55 PM

Orm

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quote:

OK, I'm new here.

Welcome billcorr.

----

I am glad that your troubles with the invasions are solved.

----

If you need any assistance in the future, it might help to get a faster answer to your question if you post a picture of your troubles or a (zipped) saved game.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/6/2015 10:44:55 PM

etsadler

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

To get more divisions for each Major Power at set-up, Corps sized units availble from the set-up totals can be broken down into divisions before being placed on the map.

Actually that's one thing MWiF doesn't offer during or after setting up. You have to wait until the end of the first turn.

Yes it does.

1) Place land unit on map
2) Right click land unit
3) Under Land Units, select Breakdown Unit
4) Select appropriate units
5) Move newly broken down units on the map as desired

NOTE: I always play with Unlimited Breakdowns, so I can't guarantee the same results if that optional is not chosen.

(in reply to paulderynck)

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/7/2015 1:56:31 AM

paulderynck

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could be - have not set up with that option

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/7/2015 3:08:03 AM >

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/7/2015 3:56:58 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

To get more divisions for each Major Power at set-up, Corps sized units availble from the set-up totals can be broken down into divisions before being placed on the map.

Actually that's one thing MWiF doesn't offer during or after setting up. You have to wait until the end of the first turn.

Yes it does.

1) Place land unit on map
2) Right click land unit
3) Under Land Units, select Breakdown Unit
4) Select appropriate units
5) Move newly broken down units on the map as desired

NOTE: I always play with Unlimited Breakdowns, so I can't guarantee the same results if that optional is not chosen.

It works the same way with or without the optional rule. However, without Unlimited Breakdowns, you are restricted by the available divisions which can severely limit which and how many units you can breakdown.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/18/2015 11:37:38 AM

billcorr

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No response required, this follow up is for documentation purposes. I have not yet been able to conduct an amphibious invasion (save once for some odd reason out of approximately 20 attempts). Italy vs Greece and USSR vs Turkey. I've paid special attention to action limits. Also, in the case of Greece, I've even experimented with having Italy declare war vs the UK (the power that controlled Greece), thinking that the rules did not allow me to amphib-invade Greece because the hex now belonged to the UK, and not Greece. All other invasion criteria were fulfilled: good weather, infantry unit on transport, etc.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/18/2015 1:11:00 PM

alexvand

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If you include a save game I'm sure that someone will figure out why for you.

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/31/2015 2:19:36 PM

Zorachus99

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My suspicion is this:

You are using the amphibious optional rule.

While using this rule, you are restricted to invading from transports with Marines, Marine Divisions, and all other non-motorized infantry divisions. SCS transport optional rules allows non-motorized divisions to load and invade from Surface Combat Ships! An Infantry unit cannot invade unless is is being transported by a Amphib naval transport.

Typically my invasion of Greece involves mainly German divisions loaded on Italian ships. Italy does a naval, Germany does a land, and all is good for activity limits.

Finally, there are several modifiers to invasions.

Invading a city increases the notional strength by 1
Invading during suprize decreases the notional strength by 1
Invading an out of supply hex decreases the notional strength by 1
Invading into ZOC increases notional strength by 1
Increases notional defense by 1 for each unit Invading from the '2' box to the same hex.
Increases notional defense by 2 for each unit Invading from the '1' box to the same hex.
The asterisk in the box is for weather and shore bombardment, as in bad weather, the invasion penalty is increased by 1.

And, you cannot invade, in Snow, Storm, or Blizzard.

Many of these rules except the ones pertaining to sea-boxes also apply to para-drops.

Good luck!

There are a few other edge cases, all of which should be covered in the section about invasions.

< Message edited by Zorachus99 -- 10/31/2015 3:23:51 PM >

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RE: Stuck. How can Italy amphibiously invade Greece in... - 10/31/2015 4:46:23 PM

paulderynck

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Here's another point that may not have been mentioned so far. Not every hex is invadeable. It must have an all-sea hexside and it must border the sea zone where the invaders transporting ships are (i.e. no blue sea zone border intervening).

The rule itself has always suffered from difficult wording and been subject to misunderstanding, but in MWiF you can hover over any coastal hex and the main form will tell you if it can be invaded and where from.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/31/2015 5:47:51 PM >

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