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Speed decreasing - 11/8/2015 8:49:54 AM   
DmitryZ

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/24/2011
Status: offline 		Sometimes, TF ordered to go at full speed, going with half of speed, instead of double. Fuel and operation points are not a reason. Could be very annoying, if you need to pursuit or retreat really quickly. Sorry for my english.
Post #: 1
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/8/2015 10:15:49 AM   
DmitryZ

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/24/2011
Status: offline 		And, to avoid creating multiply thread, what could be done for maximise struggle against fire on japanese CV in port? My Zuikaku managed to arrive in port after battle, but can not to stop the fire on deck. It was not significant after battle, something about 15 and other damage was not greate, and I moved it at cuiser speed for better repair chance, but anyway fire spread and in the moment of arriving to port become 34(and system damage was increased to 70). Well, I'm ready to long repair of system damage, but would port helps with fire?

(in reply to DmitryZ)
Post #: 2
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/8/2015 6:26:39 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DmitryZ

Sometimes, TF ordered to go at full speed, going with half of speed, instead of double. Fuel and operation points are not a reason. Could be very annoying, if you need to pursuit or retreat really quickly. Sorry for my english.


1. Full speed does not mean double cruise speed.

2. For many ship classes, in practical terms full speed is the same or almost the same, as cruise speed.

Almost certain that you are not experiencing a bug. You need to provide relevant screen shots so that we can point out where you are mistaken.

Alfred

(in reply to DmitryZ)
Post #: 3
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/8/2015 6:30:03 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DmitryZ

And, to avoid creating multiply thread, what could be done for maximise struggle against fire on japanese CV in port? My Zuikaku managed to arrive in port after battle, but can not to stop the fire on deck. It was not significant after battle, something about 15 and other damage was not greate, and I moved it at cuiser speed for better repair chance, but anyway fire spread and in the moment of arriving to port become 34(and system damage was increased to 70). Well, I'm ready to long repair of system damage, but would port helps with fire?


This is clearly not a bug and should therefore be posted in the main AE thread. It is always better to have multiple threads each with a single issue rather than multiple issues in a single thread.

Read my post in this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3794030&mpage=1&key=fire%2Cfighting�

for the factors that are taken into account in dousing ship fires.

Alfred

(in reply to DmitryZ)
Post #: 4
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/8/2015 8:36:19 PM   
DmitryZ

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/24/2011
Status: offline 		Thanks a lot! Perfect repair guide!
I didn't mean that's bug with fire, just expected some advices to increase poor Zuikaku chances.
But as for full speed, I think this is a code issue. I saw it several times, for carriers(I suppose, Zuikaku met cruisers and was inflicted by fire in this way), cruisers and destroyers. I expected from TF, for example, 16 hex movement per turn at flank speed(8 per each movement phase), but it goes only 4 hexes. Half instead of double.
Screenshot:

You see, carrier was ordered to run away at flank and had enough speed to avoid surface combat TF, but it didn't. Got a couple hits, I didn't thought that is important(something alike 12-15 fires and 35 system), but fire spread during 5 turns till ship arrives at Rabaul and don't put off in port despite the 700 Naval support(again, I don't think this is bug with fire, just bad luck, but something wrong with speed)




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Post #: 5
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/8/2015 10:51:30 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Often, putting your carrier force at flank speed will run the escorts out of fuel because they have much less. The TF will then have to stop and refuel the escorts, which uses up the operations points that would otherwise be spent on movement.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 6
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/9/2015 5:04:09 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DmitryZ

Thanks a lot! Perfect repair guide!
I didn't mean that's bug with fire, just expected some advices to increase poor Zuikaku chances.
But as for full speed, I think this is a code issue. I saw it several times, for carriers(I suppose, Zuikaku met cruisers and was inflicted by fire in this way), cruisers and destroyers. I expected from TF, for example, 16 hex movement per turn at flank speed(8 per each movement phase), but it goes only 4 hexes. Half instead of double.
Screenshot:

You see, carrier was ordered to run away at flank and had enough speed to avoid surface combat TF, but it didn't. Got a couple hits, I didn't thought that is important(something alike 12-15 fires and 35 system), but fire spread during 5 turns till ship arrives at Rabaul and don't put off in port despite the 700 Naval support(again, I don't think this is bug with fire, just bad luck, but something wrong with speed)





This is not a bug.

Look at the numbers in red next to "fuel" in the screenshot. The red means you do not have sufficient fuel. Because you have ordered the task force to move at flank speed, you will consume the equivalent of "61" hexes at cruise speed in fuel. You lack the fuel to do the complete trip at this speed.

Every time your destroyer drops below 70% fuel capacity the task force will stop to refuel the destroyer . Even though the destroyer has barely enough fuel to get to the waypoint (which is why the number "14" is in green) it will be well below the automatic 70% threshold.

As to the "fire" question the thread I provided identifies what can be done to put out the fires.

Alfred

(in reply to DmitryZ)
Post #: 7
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/9/2015 6:31:24 AM   
DmitryZ

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/24/2011
Status: offline 		No, 14 is range to destination, not to waypoint, and the green number means, TF had enough fuel to reach destination. Red 65 is total distance to destination and to home base after that. TF had not fuel for returning ro base on full speed, of course. Red 34 shows how long distance TF can go at flank speed.
As for destroyer, look at screenshot, if I detache Kasumi in the same situation and order it to go alone at flank speed, destroyer itself has fuel for 22 hexes of maximal speed, so, it didn't need refuel after 14. And I set homeport Koumac for this TF for all numbers would be green.





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Post #: 8
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/9/2015 6:43:42 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		If Kasumi had fuel for 22 hexes and would expend 14 hexes worth, it would be left with only about 35% fuel. If routing was "Normal" and the captain was not very aggressive, he would abort the mission and head to port for fuel before he got to the target. Ship captains get really nervous when fuel drops below 50%.
Try sending your carrier on the high speed run without any small escorts.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to DmitryZ)
Post #: 9
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/9/2015 7:06:52 AM   
DmitryZ

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/24/2011
Status: offline 		Screenshot from the real game is the first. The second I made to demonstrate that destroyer has enough fuel for one turn. Anyway TF meet enemies cruisers after 1 hex moving and finished the turn, moving only 4 hexes. And I cheked, Kasumi is not refueled.
This is not only situation, than TF does not complete order about full speed, having enouth fuel and operational points. I've seen it several times.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 10
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/9/2015 9:13:36 AM   
urtel


Posts: 125
Joined: 9/6/2013
Status: offline
Ye but u also change home port for second TF to Koumac, which mean destroyer will have enough fuel to come back to home port after full speed run.. In first screen shoot ur TF have home port KW Isl. and with that order u give them they calculate they will be out of fuel (to reach home port) on turn end (numbers in red) so i guess wise commander decide not to do that..

If u want KB make full dash set they home port to Koumac...

(in reply to DmitryZ)
Post #: 11
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/9/2015 9:33:35 AM   
DmitryZ

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/24/2011
Status: offline 		Well, may be commander decided not to go flank, but why he didn't go at mission speed at least? I suspend, that somethere in the code is formula "speed divide on 2" instead of "speed multiplicated on 2", which is necessary. It happens not in all cases, but it seems to me, combination of full speed and waypoints often gives this bug.

(in reply to urtel)
Post #: 12
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/9/2015 10:42:40 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DmitryZ

Well, may be commander decided not to go flank, but why he didn't go at mission speed at least? I suspend, that somethere in the code is formula "speed divide on 2" instead of "speed multiplicated on 2", which is necessary. It happens not in all cases, but it seems to me, combination of full speed and waypoints often gives this bug.


It is not a bug. You just don't understand how it works.

Nowhere in the manual are there any words to even suggest "speed divide on 2" or "multiplicated on 2". That you keep on saying it demonstrates you don't read closely exactly what I say.

The commander cannot go at mission speed because you have specifically told him not to. He is under your orders to go only at full speed and he will continue to do so until he cannot either because he has run out of fuel or has to stop, as I said before, to top up any ships which fall below 70% of their fuel capacity.

There are many reasons why you using waypoints creates additional problems for you. None of these problems are code bugs but they reflect your mistakes. Specifying waypoints usually increases the number of hexes between point A and point B. Running at full speed, when there is no good reason for doing so, with ships whose endurance is limited, and then to make it worse ordering them to remain on station, is going to create fuel problems. Japan does not have so much fuel that it can be profligate with it.

Alfred

(in reply to DmitryZ)
Post #: 13
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/9/2015 12:04:09 PM   
DmitryZ

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/24/2011
Status: offline 		This was situation after carriers battle. I've just sink Enterprise, some cruisers and destroers and heavily damaged Saratoga(she sinks at night, but I could not know about it before the turn). It costs to me Shokaku and light damage to four other carriers. Order means run away from enemy surface forces at night movement phase and return to south for sinking crippled Saratoga at day phase. I need to use flank speed, because I expected opponents cruisers and destroyers would attack at night at flank speed(so they did) and I need waypoints and destination for that march-counter-march maneuver. Speed reflects at TF screen as these white numbers 9/9 and that means capacity to move at 9 hexes at night and at 9 hexes at day phase. But TF moved to 4 hexes only, meet enemy cruisers at the next hex at night and at two hexes at day phase and Kasumi was not refuelled(and didn't need, she had about 60 % fuel). Zuikaku got some 5-6 inch shells, all to the superstructure and small fire burns, but crew could not to stop it even at cruise speed and the port with 700 Naval support could not too. That's all sad story.
As for manual, look paragraphes 6.2.3; 6.2.5; 6.2.7 I had some strong reasons to expect my order would be completed.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 14
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/9/2015 1:38:31 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		As Alfred said, waypoints cause problems with overall movement. In my experience, going to a waypoint causes the TF to pause until the end of that movement phase, and then continue movement in the next phase. I have never been able to get a TF to pass through three waypoints in a single day.

Then you have the issue of contact with the enemy. If the enemy TF was in that area before the turn and you happened to run in to it, the CV TF will attempt to run away from it rather than continue your orders. In fact, most of the time when a TF gets into a surface combat with the enemy it will abort its mission and try to return to base. It would be helpful to see a screenshot of the carrier TF just after the turn in question, rather than the one that shows what you wanted it to do before the turn ran.

In your description of the fire problem you dismiss the system damage too quickly. Having 35 points of system damage greatly increases the chances of the fire spreading because over 1/3 of the CV firefighting equipment is unserviceable. And once a fire gets over 50% on a Japanese CV early in the game it is likely to be unstoppable. Again, pictures of the ship's damage state after the battle and when it arrived in port would help us understand how that situation progressed.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to DmitryZ)
Post #: 15
RE: Speed decreasing - 11/9/2015 2:39:32 PM   
DmitryZ

 

Posts: 33
Joined: 10/24/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you! If reaching of waypoint cause ending of movement phase, that is the explanation. But I'm hesitating if it is really so. I often use waipoints to mistificate subs by TFs with high detection level. Order TF to move to waipoint at one hex and then change direction. Didn't notice that I lose all night movement phase using this trick. I've noticed some issues with retreat/pursuit TF's which goes flank with waipoints. But if waypoint may to stop movement phase, than it becomes clear.
And I didn't ignore fire threat really. I ordered TF to move to port at cruise speed and prepared port, what could I do else? Just expected that ship or port rather manage to stop fire than otherwise, 35 system and 15 fires don't look very dangerous and 700+ naval support seems much enough. But fate of wargamer is cruel Godness

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 16
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