SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand

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SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 11/22/2015 3:26:15 PM

kneecaps

Posts: 135
Joined: 12/27/2006
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Hello folks,
Give me subs, Russian sea launched cruise missiles, sunburns and sandboxes any day... I would take on all of this a million times rather than have to deal with an SA-20 or similar modern VERY good SAM.

So how do you like to deal with these? In particular I've struggled to deal with the SA-20 in Iron Hand. I had intended to deal with it using the SS-26 but cannot get a 0.1 fix to allow it to fire. This kind of long range option out of the question, how do you deal with the advanced long range SAM threat without heavy losses?

I've found them a tough nut to crack.

Post #: 1

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 11/22/2015 4:12:53 PM

Tailhook

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Joined: 1/18/2015
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I narrowed the position down with an ELINT plane initially. Afterwards I sent Fullbacks low over the Caspian armed with ARMs with a jammer behind them. I kept them low to the horizon until they detected the radars from the site. Note that this is well within range for both systems, so it's risky. They popped up to minimum firing altitude, fired all missiles, then dove back down at full burner to dodge the inbound missiles. One of my ARMS made it through. If I had fired at max range I know it wouldn't have.

(in reply to kneecaps)

Post #: 2

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 11/23/2015 10:24:45 AM

wild_Willie2

Posts: 2934
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From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
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That AS-20 is tricky as it's by far the best SAM system in this scenario.

There are several ways of doing this and all of them involve recon, heavy jamming and/or nap of the earth flying.
Remember that during this scenario hostilities do not commence until you fire or penetrate the enemy airspace. So you have plenty of time to use your ELINT planes to scout out the enemy SAM positions without having the risk of them being shot down. Once you have established the location of this site, you can either target it with your initial large volley of ASM missiles and Iskanders or you can first knock out all the other SAM/radar sites with ASM and harm like missiles (supported by your jammers, (you can also base a jammer in Armenia to jam from the west)) and then use nap of the earth flying to launch 4-6 anti-radiation missiles at it once in range.

So you generally destroy this system with your very first or very last volley.

_____________________________

In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

(in reply to Tailhook)

Post #: 3

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 11/23/2015 7:00:07 PM

kneecaps

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Joined: 12/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

That AS-20 is tricky as it's by far the best SAM system in this scenario.

There are several ways of doing this and all of them involve recon, heavy jamming and/or nap of the earth flying.
Remember that during this scenario hostilities do not commence until you fire or penetrate the enemy airspace. So you have plenty of time to use your ELINT planes to scout out the enemy SAM positions without having the risk of them being shot down. Once you have established the location of this site, you can either target it with your initial large volley of ASM missiles and Iskanders or you can first knock out all the other SAM/radar sites with ASM and harm like missiles (supported by your jammers, (you can also base a jammer in Armenia to jam from the west)) and then use nap of the earth flying to launch 4-6 anti-radiation missiles at it once in range.

So you generally destroy this system with your very first or very last volley.

I had my ELINT platform orbit for 6+ hours on the edge of engagement range and it wasn't able to resolve better than 0.3NM preventing me using Iskanders.

However I think the answer I'm getting is there is no certain way to deal with an advanced SAM like the SA-20 :D. No magic bullet so to speak.

I will go back and take a look as I must have overlooked a jammer aircraft. That would have bee useful :D

(in reply to wild_Willie2)

Post #: 4

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 11/24/2015 4:46:10 AM

wild_Willie2

Posts: 2934
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From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
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You have two Su24 jammers and without them this scenario is tough, but with them you can finish this scenario with zero losses (although 1-2 losses is common for me as I tend to get sloppy near the end and tend to unnecessary loose some AC to fighters).

One of my my favorite tactics is the use of these two jammers to mask my long range missile volleys launches from my strategic bombers. If the Azerbaijani detect you opening hostilities by launching cruise missiles, their fighters will scramble immediately and these will shoot down many of these cruise missiles before they reach their targets. But if you launch behind jammers, the cruise missiles will have reached low altitude before they can be detected and will thus get much closer to their targets before they are detected and the Azerbaijani CAP scrambles to intercept them. This also means that you can only launch your kitchens/iskanders after the Azerbaijani CAP scrambles, as these missiles are so much faster than their much more numerous cousins that they will also be detected much earlier.

Also arm your su34's with adders and have them destroy the Azerbaijani mig's from low altitude and standoff range once their supporting surface radars have been neutralized.

_____________________________

In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

(in reply to kneecaps)

Post #: 5

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 11/24/2015 9:36:30 AM

MR_BURNS2

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I usually swarm the SA-20 with 6-8 AS-17 with ECM support (as always, make sure the missiles fly between the Jammer and the target) or at least 12 without ECM.
Fly in low until in range, popup, fire and get out of there.

Also bear in mind that you have a variety of ARM and other loadout options for your SU-24M2 at Akhtubinsk, some people overlook these.

AS-11, AS-17 and AS-18 all have a 60NM range, quite handy in the standoff battles that you wanna fight here.

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(in reply to wild_Willie2)

Post #: 6

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 11/24/2015 10:20:51 PM

kneecaps

Posts: 135
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MR_BURNS2

I usually swarm the SA-20 with 6-8 AS-17 with ECM support (as always, make sure the missiles fly between the Jammer and the target) or at least 12 without ECM.
Fly in low until in range, popup, fire and get out of there.

Also bear in mind that you have a variety of ARM and other loadout options for your SU-24M2 at Akhtubinsk, some people overlook these.

AS-11, AS-17 and AS-18 all have a 60NM range, quite handy in the standoff battles that you wanna fight here.

Thanks folks! Yes I think i've missed the OECM and other loadouts here. I was wondering why I didn't seem to have an OECM capability, I figured this was part of making the scenario harder :D. I was going to move on but I'm going to have another crack at this :D

(in reply to MR_BURNS2)

Post #: 7

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 12/29/2015 6:57:11 PM

SeaQueen

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From: Washington D.C.
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One solution I've considered is the Bear and Blackjack bombers with their long range air launched cruise missiles. Once you locate the SA-20 system you can destroy it using the cruise missiles without ever getting anywhere near the missile system.

The thing is, within the context of the scenario, you only get points for SA-5, SA-4 and SA-10 systems. The SA-20 is a distraction of you ask me, and it's best to just put a "No Navigation" zone around as much of the area it controls as possible and concentrate on the targets that give you points.

(in reply to kneecaps)

Post #: 8

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 2/5/2016 8:23:49 PM

PaulCharl

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You sure SeaQueen? I'm pretty sure I earn victory points when I knock it out. I'm using the 1.09 version.

(in reply to SeaQueen)

Post #: 9

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 2/21/2016 12:20:16 AM

Cyrano dX

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I just bought this game a couple of weeks ago and this Iron Hand is the most complicated scenario I've played so far.

I started by attacking the Eastern part installations near BAKU airbase. I first went for the two Radars. Should I ignore the radars and go straight for the SAM sites instead ?

Thanks

(in reply to PaulCharl)

Post #: 10

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 2/21/2016 8:22:29 AM

wild_Willie2

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Take out the known long range SAM's with your land based Iskanders as soon as your heavy bomber cruise missiles swarm gets detected (enemy fighters go on an intercept course) while having your cruise missiles already target the remaining SAM's and radars. With effective jamming about half of your cruise missiles can get through the just alerted air defenses to hit their targets. My most effective initial strike took out 80% of the air defenses and radars while normally you'll take out about half.

_____________________________

In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

(in reply to Cyrano dX)

Post #: 11

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 2/21/2016 9:00:14 AM

Aivlis

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Taking out the long range radars will let you start your attack runs closer without the patrolling MiG-29s being vectored onto you, so I'd say it's a good idea to deal with them sooner rather than later; although ideally the first salvo that takes the out should also knock out some of the SAMs sites.

In my playthrough I went with a wavetop level approach with my SEAD planes while baiting the SA-20 at long range, and it worked just fine; once it's damaged enough and the EW radars are out it's threat envelope reduces substantially. To be honest I found the MiG patrols much more annoying, as they can and will shoot down your cruise missiles en masse.

If you want to add some challenge, open the scenario in editor mode and improve the patrol missions with prosecutions zones (the scenario predates that mechanic); or order some of the SAM sites to keep their radars off while the radar installations near them still work (easy to script with Lua).

(in reply to Cyrano dX)

Post #: 12

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/25/2017 2:52:46 AM

Lanzfeld

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I am loving this scenario!

I wish it was remade with

1. Random starting positions for the SAMs

2. Not have all the SAMs emit at the start.

(in reply to Aivlis)

Post #: 13

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/25/2017 5:27:43 PM

cns180784

Posts: 447
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Hi i started this scenario a few weeks back and was scratching my head about that SA-20 and in the end i just left it but want to come back and give it a proper go. After discovering this SA-20 i decided to do some experimenting in the editor with a Battalion of Iskanders and the SA-20 (same ones in the scenario). Found that a salvo of 4 Iskanders (well not exactly a salvo as theirs about a minute i think in between each launch) without jamming did the job on the SA-20 but taking into account it had no other defenses nearby such as the Migs that are in Iron Hand. I also experimented using the same Su-24 a/c with the ELINT pod and found that couldnt get an accurate enough fix on the SA-20 (so had to make it auto detectable to launch the Iskanders) same as someone else pointed out could only get a rough location within 0.3nm.

I found it odd that this scenario has an SA-20 as it doesnt mention it in the briefing, i've detected numerous SA-5's and the 4's that are mobile further South, but have yet to detect the SA-10...is there an SA-10 there? i was wondering if this was a typo error by the author and that they meant to write SA-20 instead.

What i thought of doing was having my Su-24 with the ELINT pod to break off from its support mission which is to patrol just outside the max range of the SA-20 to the N,NE and E out over the Caspian which was initially to hopefully get an accurate fix on its location but i now know thats not possible. Instead i could have that with its SLAR and recon camera to fly low and close over the Caspian to get eyes on the SA-20 and then launch the Iskanders behind a jammer but the problem here is will it engage any contact not ID'd as friendly? or will the Migs scramble on contacts unidentified that are over the Caspian once they get so close?

I dont want any spoilers but thought i'd put this idea out. Its possible if its outside the prosecution zone of the Migs and their ROE is set to tight...but i doubt it. I'd imagine they are set to tight but the Migs i'm sure will scramble. My other idea was when their Migs do scramble have my Flankers take long range shots at them to make them hopefully go defensive before they can engage my Su-24 and have my Su-24 get in and out quickly with loitering for a brief few seconds to get eyes on the SA-20.

Hmmm.

(in reply to Lanzfeld)

Post #: 14

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/25/2017 5:28:58 PM

cns180784

Posts: 447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanzfeld

I am loving this scenario!

I wish it was remade with

1. Random starting positions for the SAMs

2. Not have all the SAMs emit at the start.

Its funny how some of the best scenarios are the original standalones- like Canarys Cage which still is my favourite scenario.

< Message edited by cns180784 -- 5/25/2017 5:29:09 PM >

(in reply to Lanzfeld)

Post #: 15

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/26/2017 8:45:57 PM

cns180784

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

One solution I've considered is the Bear and Blackjack bombers with their long range air launched cruise missiles. Once you locate the SA-20 system you can destroy it using the cruise missiles without ever getting anywhere near the missile system.

The thing is, within the context of the scenario, you only get points for SA-5, SA-4 and SA-10 systems. The SA-20 is a distraction of you ask me, and it's best to just put a "No Navigation" zone around as much of the area it controls as possible and concentrate on the targets that give you points.

How did you properly locate the SA-20? because as you say this is required to fire the Iskanders or other cruise missiles (except the Kitchens) and the only way to properly locate the SA-20 is with the SU24 recon a/c getting in low and close which i've just found is suicidal.

I noticed at Akhtubinsk there are two different types of emitter locators on the magazine..but theres' no a/c that can load it. If this were possible then this can get a firm precise fix on the SA-20's location but i'm stuck in that regard. Seems to me the only way to take out the SA-20 is to launch a load of ARMS at the EW radars/ SAMs near the SA-20 with jamming to be used as a screen, to be followed by the 4 AS-4 Kitchens that the Backfires have targeting the SA-20.

Are points awarded for destroying the SA-20? if not then it would just be worth suppressing it by destroying the Tombstone.

< Message edited by cns180784 -- 5/26/2017 8:46:57 PM >

(in reply to SeaQueen)

Post #: 16

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/27/2017 12:18:09 AM

mikmykWS

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Hi Guys

I've updated this scenario a bit. Russians now have Dagestan with Kalibr, IL-22PP and a few more ready aircraft. Azerbaijan AI slightly improved behaviors thanks to WRA and proficiency.

Magazine Alamo A issues should also be resolved.

You can grab the scenario and ini in this post but will update our master set.

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 5/27/2017 1:42:54 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/27/2017 1:29:07 AM

tjhkkr

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Thank you!

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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 18

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/27/2017 1:36:33 PM

Lanzfeld

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Wow!
You gave us three more jamming aircraft and a ship?
I fear the scenario is going to be too easy now

(in reply to tjhkkr)

Post #: 19

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/27/2017 1:44:06 PM

mikmykWS

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Hi

Further updates to mags. Thanks Eggstor!

MIke

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 5/27/2017 11:55:23 PM >

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Post #: 20

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/27/2017 6:43:07 PM

Lanzfeld

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The SCEN file and the config file in the zip you just gave us have two different names.

Iron hand 2014 and iron hand.

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 21

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/27/2017 7:33:15 PM

mikmykWS

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ok I'll look later. The scenario is updated to the latest DB so you don't need the config file just yet.

Scenario files don't need the ini's with them to work. The ini is just used when you want to update

Mike

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Post #: 22

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/27/2017 7:42:24 PM

cns180784

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Seems fine to me and have decided to start the scenario again with the update, thanks Mikmyk. I like the extra jammers especially the more modern one, and those extra juicy cruise missiles on the Frigate.

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 23

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/27/2017 11:12:19 PM

Eggstor

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A name mismatch between a scenario file and its ini file is fine...as long as, when the scenario is rebuilt, the rebuilder remembers what the ini file is called. At least at this point, when it's time to apply the ini file, the scenario editor will always ask what file to apply.

(in reply to cns180784)

Post #: 24

RE: SA-20 Gargoyle - Iron Hand - 5/27/2017 11:55:41 PM

mikmykWS

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Another version with the ini renamed.

Thanks