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Editor question or two - 11/22/2015 6:14:33 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Since searching the forums and reading the manual didn't yield results...

1. The Plane Guided Missile type under devices, is this an Air to ground or Air to air setting? I'm assuming air to ground, but you never know.

2. If checked, does it actually work?

3. Is there a hard-coded 'start date' that will prevent the device from being available until that date has passed?



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Post #: 1
RE: Editor question or two - 11/22/2015 8:30:06 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Were you able to retrieve this 2012 thread?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3198297&mpage=1&key=missile&#3200490

The thread has a lot of discussion between you and others re your attempts to get missiles to work.  Perhaps more significantly is post #5 from me which provides a link back to a 2010 thread where JuanG discusses his success in getting a PGM to work as an air to ground weapon system.  That second thread (JuanG's) also has embedded links back to other important threads.

The key consideration seems to be to

  • treat it as similar to an Okha (from a game coding POV)
  • and to make the device front facing

I don't have the editor open before me at the moment but if there is a hard coded start date for use of Okha, then probably the same would apply to your PGM.  But I doubt that the Okha start date is hard coded.

Also bear in mind that Tim Tom said many years ago that an aircraft equipped with 8x or 10x missiles would be too powerful.  You can find his post in one of the embedded threads.


Alfred

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 2
RE: Editor question or two - 11/23/2015 2:51:33 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Thanks Alfred, the search function did not return that thread, so I'll take a look through it again. 2012. Sadly I don't even remember having the conversation, but that was a long time ago. But after re-reading, I remember. Man I was a hot-head back then, no wonder I took such a long break from the game and forum. I was really a jerk back then. Funny how things that were so important at the time they happened are really nothing in hind-sight.

Anyway, thanks for all the info, and just FYI what I had in mind was putting a US missile in that was used at least one time historically near the end of the war.

2 missiles per plane and only on the single aircraft type that historically used it. PB4Y Privateer carrying 2x Bat (Later known as ASM-N-2). Put too many missiles in game and throw the balance so far off it would be unplayable end-game. I really want to make it no more than a fun 'toy' to use now and then. If I could actually figure out a way to limit the number available (like the sea mines) that wouldn't be a bad thing either.

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Post #: 3
RE: Editor question or two - 11/23/2015 7:13:49 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Don't forget the option of assigning alternate bomb loads.  Read my posts #21 and #41 in particular, and the link I provide, in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3712728&mpage=1&key=alternate&#3713741

Might be a work around for limiting their availability.

Another approach would be to set up a new dedicated aircraft model equipped with your PGM (either as the primary weapon suite or as an alternate weapon suite).  Aircraft production would be limited and determining availability start date would be up to you.

Alfred

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 4
RE: Editor question or two - 11/23/2015 7:26:44 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Don't forget the option of assigning alternate bomb loads.  Read my posts #21 and #41 in particular, and the link I provide, in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3712728&mpage=1&key=alternate�

Might be a work around for limiting their availability.

Another approach would be to set up a new dedicated aircraft model equipped with your PGM (either as the primary weapon suite or as an alternate weapon suite).  Aircraft production would be limited and determining availability start date would be up to you.

Alfred


I actually went with the filter option, making the Bat a secondary choice for naval attack. Haven't tested it yet, but I'm hoping that it will select the secondary load-out now and then, but usually use the primary load-out (which I simply left as is from the stock scenario). But after re-reading the filters thread, I may need to rethink that idea.

That seemed to be a good compromise to me at least.

It's amazing how much you forget when you step away from something for an extended time.

Anyway, I've attached a screen shot of it set up in the editor. If you see any glaring mistakes there, feel free to point them out.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Shark7 -- 11/23/2015 8:30:21 AM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Editor question or two - 11/23/2015 7:47:00 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Nothing immediately comes to mind as being untoward but I'd have to go back and reread the editor manual etc to be certain. 

The alternate bomb loadout filters are very finicky.  That is where most modders come unstuck.  Possible to get screenshots of them?  You need to address both weapon slots 1-10 and 11-20 keeping the same order on both pages.  Remember that once you do use alternate bomb loadouts, you can't use any generic "filters" as they will "override" your intentions.

Alfred 

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 6
RE: Editor question or two - 11/23/2015 6:15:47 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Thanks again Alfred.

I found out one of the finicky things about the alternate load-outs. If you add 50 kg GPs on as a secondary to a bigger GP as the main, then filter them, in game the 50 kgs turn into 15 kg GPs for some reason. And it is consistant. And it is just the 50 kg GPs that are affected. So if you wanted a 250 kg GP and 2 50 kg GPs as loadout 32, and 3 100 kg GPs for the 02 loadout, the 50s turn into 15s every time. Take off the filter and you get the load-out you want.

Basically it seems that some things are best left alone, lol.

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Post #: 7
RE: Editor question or two - 11/24/2015 2:26:34 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		That looks very much you were trying 2x slots in 1-10 but only 1x slot in 11-20.  That will fail as I said you need to keep the same order.

Alfred

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 8
RE: Editor question or two - 11/24/2015 2:34:28 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		My uncle George Sortwell was killed by a German plane guided missile while enroute thru the Mediterranean to Bombay. He served with the 322nd Fighter Control Squadron as a RADAR operator with the 14th AF.
They were aboard a really filthy, inferior Indian ship called the RMS Rhona.
It was hit in convoy by a missile carried by a HE-177.
These were very effective weapons and later, the Germans launched them against the Italian battleships which the Italian Navy was trying to surrender at Malta.
One of those BB's sunk, IIRC.
The sinking of the Rhona was the greatest loss of American lives on one single ship, with only the exception of the Arizona, but it was kept secret until the eighties, supposedly because the allies did not with to reveal to the Germans how effective it was, (as if the German aircrew did not already know it).

Commenting purely to show the accuracy and potential.

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Post #: 9
RE: Editor question or two - 11/24/2015 8:58:49 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

That looks very much you were trying 2x slots in 1-10 but only 1x slot in 11-20.  That will fail as I said you need to keep the same order.

Alfred


OK, I see what you are saying so I set up a little test. Here is the in game result when I set both the 1-10 and 11-20 weapons slots exactly the same. I've double checked everything, and still I get this result. I'm going to guess that device slot 1879 must have something hard coded that is causing this, as I can see no difference between this device and any of the other devices on the list.

Could that be it?




Attachment (1)

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Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 10
RE: Editor question or two - 11/24/2015 9:02:53 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

My uncle George Sortwell was killed by a German plane guided missile while enroute thru the Mediterranean to Bombay. He served with the 322nd Fighter Control Squadron as a RADAR operator with the 14th AF.
They were aboard a really filthy, inferior Indian ship called the RMS Rhona.
It was hit in convoy by a missile carried by a HE-177.
These were very effective weapons and later, the Germans launched them against the Italian battleships which the Italian Navy was trying to surrender at Malta.
One of those BB's sunk, IIRC.
The sinking of the Rhona was the greatest loss of American lives on one single ship, with only the exception of the Arizona, but it was kept secret until the eighties, supposedly because the allies did not with to reveal to the Germans how effective it was, (as if the German aircrew did not already know it).

Commenting purely to show the accuracy and potential.



Sorry to hear about your uncle m10bob.

I googled the ship and read the story. Quite a bit of controversy there from what I read.

And always feel free to comment in my threads.

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Post #: 11
RE: Editor question or two - 11/24/2015 9:53:46 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

That looks very much you were trying 2x slots in 1-10 but only 1x slot in 11-20.  That will fail as I said you need to keep the same order.

Alfred


OK, I see what you are saying so I set up a little test. Here is the in game result when I set both the 1-10 and 11-20 weapons slots exactly the same. I've double checked everything, and still I get this result. I'm going to guess that device slot 1879 must have something hard coded that is causing this, as I can see no difference between this device and any of the other devices on the list.

Could that be it?





Not the screenshot I had in mind.

The relevant one is the Potez from the editor stats, showing both the 1-10 and 11-20 loadouts.

Alfred

Edit: Probably of no impact but I notice you haven't provided any manoeuvre ratings for the last 2 bands. Obviously not because your Potez can't fly that high but in the official scenarios fighters and fighter bombers are still given manoeuvre ratings in bands which they can't reach. IIRC the code has a slight fudge around the edge of altitude ceilings to prevent a player just always flying 1k above the enemys CAP or flak ceiling in order to be totally immune from interception.

< Message edited by Alfred -- 11/24/2015 10:59:33 PM >

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 12
RE: Editor question or two - 11/25/2015 12:26:29 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		OK, this is the view in the editor, cropped down to the pertinent stuff. As you can see, both weapons slot banks are exactly the same. So unless its some other setting I've managed to get wrong (not outside the possibilities) then I just have no answer to it.




Attachment (1)

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Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 13
RE: Editor question or two - 11/25/2015 12:42:55 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Well after going back through, believe I found the issue. BTW, this is a screen-shot of the unmodified device list from Scenario 1. So this is in the stock game like this.

So is this an actual data base error or is it working as intended?

Also, the 100kg below it has its upgrade set one slot prior (to the 50kg). The rest of them upgrade to themselves.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Shark7 -- 11/25/2015 1:44:43 AM >

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Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 14
RE: Editor question or two - 11/25/2015 12:56:37 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

My uncle George Sortwell was killed by a German plane guided missile while enroute thru the Mediterranean to Bombay. He served with the 322nd Fighter Control Squadron as a RADAR operator with the 14th AF.
They were aboard a really filthy, inferior Indian ship called the RMS Rhona.
It was hit in convoy by a missile carried by a HE-177.
These were very effective weapons and later, the Germans launched them against the Italian battleships which the Italian Navy was trying to surrender at Malta.
One of those BB's sunk, IIRC.
The sinking of the Rhona was the greatest loss of American lives on one single ship, with only the exception of the Arizona, but it was kept secret until the eighties, supposedly because the allies did not with to reveal to the Germans how effective it was, (as if the German aircrew did not already know it).

Commenting purely to show the accuracy and potential.


Wikipedia has an article on the ship:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMT_Rohna

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Post #: 15
RE: Editor question or two - 11/25/2015 12:15:31 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Shark7,

Those look like 'oops' to me, but the likelihood of a data patch at this point is pretty remote.
I want to bring up one more thing if you are playing with this: many of these devices have alternative defined (like GP/SP) in the device record that you cannot see in the editor, you have to use the csv file.
When you start using the aircraft loadout logics, you must be careful not to cross any of the device upgrades, or you will get some very unpleasant results.

Good luck!

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Pax

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Post #: 16
RE: Editor question or two - 11/25/2015 6:17:56 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Shark7,

Those look like 'oops' to me, but the likelihood of a data patch at this point is pretty remote.
I want to bring up one more thing if you are playing with this: many of these devices have alternative defined (like GP/SP) in the device record that you cannot see in the editor, you have to use the csv file.
When you start using the aircraft loadout logics, you must be careful not to cross any of the device upgrades, or you will get some very unpleasant results.

Good luck!



Trust me, I'm rediscovering all this game's little quirks one at a time.

Naturally I'll fix this in my own scenario, but as you know the stock scenarios are off limits. I'll also take a look at the .csv files in Excel to look for more potential issues for my own little mod.

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Post #: 17
RE: Editor question or two - 11/25/2015 10:24:59 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Shark7 shouldn't your 100kg bombs have also a filter?


Another thing:
A solution for dissimilar slots in 1-10 and 11-20 needs to be a dummy bomb or an empty slot with appropriate filter is enough?

Example:

1-10
Wpn 4 2x250 filter 2
Wpn 5 dummy or empty? filter 2 ?

11-20
Wpn 14 2x100 filter 2
Wpn 15 2x50 filter 2

< Message edited by Dili -- 11/25/2015 11:25:47 PM >

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 18
RE: Editor question or two - 11/25/2015 11:00:47 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Blanks have always worked for me ... you don't want to have a non-aligned device though.

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Post #: 19
RE: Editor question or two - 11/26/2015 2:18:47 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Thx Pax
Blanks in the whole slot? Wpn 5 "no weapon /filter 0" or "no weapon /filter 2" ?

By non aligned you mean what more precisely? I listed the example(s) above. With wpn4 corresponding to wpn 14 and so on in filter ID , is that what you are saying?

Sorry to be a pest but this needs to be very precise.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 20
RE: Editor question or two - 11/26/2015 2:30:04 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		Filter 0 means that device will be carried by default on all missions. In this case, the 100kg (which I do need to move to centerline) is carried on any mission, but the defined missions will carry the other ordnance as a secondary weapon.

Examples: AF attack you will get 1x100kg and 2x50kg, while on a ground attack mission you get 1x100kg and 6x12kg.

I have already tested that part, and it works fine.

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Post #: 21
RE: Editor question or two - 11/26/2015 9:20:15 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks Shark7

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 22
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