Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paavel

Hello guys, I've reading the forum since December 2012 and it's nice to write my first post here. Coincidence between my first PBEM game (also first in my life, I had never played WitP before, even against AI) and first visit on forum is something obvious. Learning through playing seems to be painful, but quite effective.

After almost 3 years we had beginning of April 1943, I need to describe the situation:

- Borneo and Sumatra are Japanese, Java is still in Allied hands, well fortified, fullfilled with heavy bombers and fighters (nearly 600 planes on whole island).
- Collapse of Japanese oil industry, Palembang is burned to the ground, Balikpapan, Tarakan and other too, only on NW Sumatra there is a few of it. Opponent sails really economically and as he said - he cannot has active all factories in the same time.
- Massive Imperial (one with rising sun of course) offensive on Indian - Burmese border, stalemate on Ceylon (50k+ Japanese troops but without artillery and armoured vehicles, many of them were sunk on transport ships)
- Eastern New Guinea (retaken from Japan on January 1943) with Trobriands are in Allied hands
- Massacre on sea - something about 1200 Allied ships and warships sunk, Japanese - ~150
- From CVs only Saratoga, Hornet and freshly arrived British one are alive, CVEs - three, Japan hasn't lost any
- Dangerous sea routes - minimini-KB or few cruisers raided convoys even between USA and PH or on the east from New Zealand
- Better situation in the air - I've advantage on "shot down airplanes" about 1300+ planes
- Manchuria is in Soviet hands (suddenly USSR was activated, short month - lenght war and truce)

You may ask me - why I'm replacing war reporter on the War Room?

I've got problems with proper use of Allied submarines. I had lost just 6, so I have plenty of them, however accuracy and frequency of torpedo attacks are really unsatisfying. Submarines sunk just 44 ships through 16 months of war - biggest one was LSD at 9th December, few AKs, oilers, 2 destroyers, 3 patrol vessels and that's all. In the same time Japanese submarines sunk almost 300 and lost 26.

What have I done before from my private COMSUBPAC?

- I remember about replacing commanders (for much better than 30 naval, they are cleaning toilets in San Diego), Naval skills and Agressive are on "normal" level.
- Submarines stay on hex for few rounds or patrol two - three adjacent hexes, they are operating singly
- "Minefield games" isn't unknown word, sometimes few of Allied commanders have orders about laying minefield somewhere near Singapore, Georgetown, Balikpapan, Rabaul, even Kyushu (and as I heard from the opponent - almost 60 ships were damaged from mines, efficiency is 4 times better than in case of torpedo attacks)
- Submarines are often used as scouts - "casus Ceylon" proves their efficiency on that field, without few succesful attacks (magnificent spree, really, 8 attacks without detonator problems, mishits, etc had been unknown before)
- They guards important straits (especially near New Guinea or ports (3-4 near Truk, Rabaul, etc)
- Although they are under air attack quite often - submarines are rarely damaged, I still has a regularity in my mind, that submarine's captain without ASW above his head fights much, much better.
- Almost every submarine is modernized.

What's your tips guys to improve submarine's efficiency? I'm really grateful for any word.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckk

Alfred

Thanks for the tutorial. I am confused about #1 point. If you can't cover straits with sea or air cover, is not using subs a necessity?
Particularly in the early war?

Chuck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paavel

Hello guys, I've reading the forum since December 2012 and it's nice to write my first post here. Coincidence between my first PBEM game (also first in my life, I had never played WitP before, even against AI) and first visit on forum is something obvious. Learning through playing seems to be painful, but quite effective.

After almost 3 years we had beginning of April 1943, I need to describe the situation:

- Borneo and Sumatra are Japanese, Java is still in Allied hands, well fortified, fullfilled with heavy bombers and fighters (nearly 600 planes on whole island).
- Collapse of Japanese oil industry, Palembang is burned to the ground, Balikpapan, Tarakan and other too, only on NW Sumatra there is a few of it. Opponent sails really economically and as he said - he cannot has active all factories in the same time.
- Massive Imperial (one with rising sun of course) offensive on Indian - Burmese border, stalemate on Ceylon (50k+ Japanese troops but without artillery and armoured vehicles, many of them were sunk on transport ships)
- Eastern New Guinea (retaken from Japan on January 1943) with Trobriands are in Allied hands
- Massacre on sea - something about 1200 Allied ships and warships sunk, Japanese - ~150
- From CVs only Saratoga, Hornet and freshly arrived British one are alive, CVEs - three, Japan hasn't lost any
- Dangerous sea routes - minimini-KB or few cruisers raided convoys even between USA and PH or on the east from New Zealand
- Better situation in the air - I've advantage on "shot down airplanes" about 1300+ planes
- Manchuria is in Soviet hands (suddenly USSR was activated, short month - lenght war and truce)

You may ask me - why I'm replacing war reporter on the War Room?

I've got problems with proper use of Allied submarines. I had lost just 6, so I have plenty of them, however accuracy and frequency of torpedo attacks are really unsatisfying. Submarines sunk just 44 ships through 16 months of war - biggest one was LSD at 9th December, few AKs, oilers, 2 destroyers, 3 patrol vessels and that's all. In the same time Japanese submarines sunk almost 300 and lost 26.

What have I done before from my private COMSUBPAC?

- I remember about replacing commanders (for much better than 30 naval, they are cleaning toilets in San Diego), Naval skills and Agressive are on "normal" level.
- Submarines stay on hex for few rounds or patrol two - three adjacent hexes, they are operating singly
- "Minefield games" isn't unknown word, sometimes few of Allied commanders have orders about laying minefield somewhere near Singapore, Georgetown, Balikpapan, Rabaul, even Kyushu (and as I heard from the opponent - almost 60 ships were damaged from mines, efficiency is 4 times better than in case of torpedo attacks)
- Submarines are often used as scouts - "casus Ceylon" proves their efficiency on that field, without few succesful attacks (magnificent spree, really, 8 attacks without detonator problems, mishits, etc had been unknown before)
- They guards important straits (especially near New Guinea or ports (3-4 near Truk, Rabaul, etc)
- Although they are under air attack quite often - submarines are rarely damaged, I still has a regularity in my mind, that submarine's captain without ASW above his head fights much, much better.
- Almost every submarine is modernized.

What's your tips guys to improve submarine's efficiency? I'm really grateful for any word.

1. Do not use Allied subs to guard important straits. That is a defensive task which is not suitable. Important straits should be "guarded" by aircraft and surface combat task forces, both of which have a much greater reaction range than do sub task forces.

2. Do not place sub task forces under "remain on station" orders. Doing so negates any patrol and reaction responses.

3. Avoid as much as possible sending sub task forces to operate where enemy air ASW coverage is strong. If you do send them there, the sub TF should be given a 3 point barrier to patrol with zero lingering at each barrier point.

4. Set your barrier points to be the distance the sub TF can move at cruise speed each 12 hour period. This will help to shake off the enemy DL on your sub TF.

5. A sub minelaying TF will very rarely attack enemy ships. Do not expect them to drop off their mines and then attack the enemy.

6. Pay careful attention to the distance between the patrol location and the sub TF home port. Aim for the distance to be no greater than 25% of the endurance. If the distance is greater than 33.3% you are wasting too much time transiting to and from the patrol zone.

7. Number one thing above all else, set patrol zones where you also have air naval search operating. Unless yhou can DL enemy task forces, your subs will rarely find a target to attack on their own cognisance.

8. Just like point 1 above, use of subs as scouts is also sub optimal if the objective is to sink enemy ships.

9. Subs which are slower than the enemy ships will rarely be able to get into position to launch an attack. This is a major factor why points 1 and 8 are sub optimal usage of subs as those are situations where the most likely enemy ships encountered will be combat ships which are faster than the subs.

10. The desired primary skill level for your sub commander is "naval". The secondary skill is "aggression". Aim for 60+ in "naval" skill, the higher the better. The naval skill rating must not be below the aggression skill rating.

11. American sub torpedo problems do not stop being a problem until September 1943.

12. Avoid placing sub patrols in shallow water. They are much more vulnerable to enemy counter measures. Focus on deep water locations.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

Is there any way to order a sub to follow or try to intercept a spotted enemy task force?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

Is there any way to order a sub to follow or try to intercept a spotted enemy task force?

Nope. The "Follow" command only works with friendly TFs, and I am not even sure subs can use it. Certainly nothing can follow a sub by order.
The best you can do is set the react setting to 1, and the sub TF MAY react to a well-spotted TF in the next hex. I think this only happens when the enemy TF ends its movement there, rather than passing through.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

I have a single sub TF that has "Patrol Zone(!!)" immediately under the TF Routing line. What does the (!!) mean? A different sub TF has "Patrol Zone **". What does the ** mean? Yet another sub TF has "Patrol Zone **(+)", what does that mean? In case it makes any difference, I'm playing as Japanese.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

I have a single sub TF that has "Patrol Zone(!!)" immediately under the TF Routing line. What does the (!!) mean? A different sub TF has "Patrol Zone **". What does the ** mean? Yet another sub TF has "Patrol Zone **(+)", what does that mean? In case it makes any difference, I'm playing as Japanese.

It indicates you used different settings for the threat tolerance and the routing control. The ** show a direct routing and the !! an absolute threat tolerance.

http://www.ussliberty.org/index2.html
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/but-sir-its-an-american-ship-never-mind-hit-her-1.5492908

quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

I've found success in the sub war thus far in the three games I've played. In the current one for example, it's April 1943 and I've hit 123 AKs, 23 TKs, 25, AKLs etc... (this is exploded torpedo hits so it does not count the duds). And, yes, I'm a little OCD with my chart recording each hit and the sub that did it. My humble advice would be as follows:

1. You know where the ships have to go so put your subs there. For example, you know that most ships have to go to big ports in Japan so concentrate subs there. Other good places are at straits (such as north of the Philippines or heading north from Balikpapan and Tarakan).

2. Another good place for subs are major bases. Find the big ports and stick a sub or two there. Again, you know that merchants have to show up to resupply and that major warships have to rearm there so you will get lots of chances. This also holds true for places with large drydocks. You know that damaged BBs and CVs need to go to those and a damaged ship is much easier to sink. Just one extra CV per game can make this all worthwhile.

3. Avoid shallow water like the plague. The smaller boats may be more nimble, but, my experience is that getting caught in shallow water means, at the very least, serious damage. There are plenty of deep water places to get at IJN ships.

4. If there is a Japanese invasion of India or Australia then you know it will take lots of resupply and reinforcement efforts. Even better, he is heading into your search zones which gives your subs extra detection. You know what ports he has so, line up your subs that that he has to pass through several layers of boats to get there.

5. similarly, you know where you're going to have an invasion so pre-position boats around the target ahead of time. That way, you have shots at reinforcement/resupply and at any relief forces that can be heading in. I think subs are very helpful for finishing off wounded capital ships so you want them around if you think that there will be a carrier battle. Think of the "double tap" rule from Zombieland. You're pretty sure that CV is dead, but one more hit to make sure. :-)

6. Prior to 1943 use your Dutch subs aggressively. They don't have torpedo problems!

7. Someone posted on one of my AARs to not have overlapping patrol zones. So, if your setting up a sub barrier outside of Tokyo for example, have one sub patrol three hexes, another sub patrol the three hexes south of that etc..

8. Always update your subs as soon as possible. In my limited experience the December 1942 upgrade makes a big difference in the number of times subs find surface TFs. I suspect that the upgrades frequently involve better electronics giving the subs greater detection capabilities.

9. Don't really waste time using subs as transports. They can't shift enough supplies to make a difference.

10. Remember the little "dot" islands that the Japanese rarely capture. If you have a badly damaged sub and you're near one of those you can disband the sub there and hope that it can drain some of the flooding and fix some of the systems damage and then make it home. This way, you might be able to save a few subs even if they are deep in enemy territory.

I hope this helps!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

I've found success in the sub war thus far in the three games I've played. In the current one for example, it's April 1943 and I've hit 123 AKs, 23 TKs, 25, AKLs etc... (this is exploded torpedo hits so it does not count the duds). And, yes, I'm a little OCD with my chart recording each hit and the sub that did it. My humble advice would be as follows:

1. You know where the ships have to go so put your subs there. For example, you know that most ships have to go to big ports in Japan so concentrate subs there. Other good places are at straits (such as north of the Philippines or heading north from Balikpapan and Tarakan).

2. Another good place for subs are major bases. Find the big ports and stick a sub or two there. Again, you know that merchants have to show up to resupply and that major warships have to rearm there so you will get lots of chances. This also holds true for places with large drydocks. You know that damaged BBs and CVs need to go to those and a damaged ship is much easier to sink. Just one extra CV per game can make this all worthwhile.

3. Avoid shallow water like the plague. The smaller boats may be more nimble, but, my experience is that getting caught in shallow water means, at the very least, serious damage. There are plenty of deep water places to get at IJN ships.

4. If there is a Japanese invasion of India or Australia then you know it will take lots of resupply and reinforcement efforts. Even better, he is heading into your search zones which gives your subs extra detection. You know what ports he has so, line up your subs that that he has to pass through several layers of boats to get there.

5. similarly, you know where you're going to have an invasion so pre-position boats around the target ahead of time. That way, you have shots at reinforcement/resupply and at any relief forces that can be heading in. I think subs are very helpful for finishing off wounded capital ships so you want them around if you think that there will be a carrier battle. Think of the "double tap" rule from Zombieland. You're pretty sure that CV is dead, but one more hit to make sure. :-)

6. Prior to 1943 use your Dutch subs aggressively. They don't have torpedo problems!

7. Someone posted on one of my AARs to not have overlapping patrol zones. So, if your setting up a sub barrier outside of Tokyo for example, have one sub patrol three hexes, another sub patrol the three hexes south of that etc..

8. Always update your subs as soon as possible. In my limited experience the December 1942 upgrade makes a big difference in the number of times subs find surface TFs. I suspect that the upgrades frequently involve better electronics giving the subs greater detection capabilities.

9. Don't really waste time using subs as transports. They can't shift enough supplies to make a difference.

10. Remember the little "dot" islands that the Japanese rarely capture. If you have a badly damaged sub and you're near one of those you can disband the sub there and hope that it can drain some of the flooding and fix some of the systems damage and then make it home. This way, you might be able to save a few subs even if they are deep in enemy territory.

I hope this helps!

2. Put subs in enemy bases.

3. Avoid shallow water like the plague.

Don't these contradict themselves as aren't all bases in shallow water?