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B-17s - 12/9/2015 1:51:22 AM   
histgamer

 

Posts: 1455
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline 		Anyone have any tips for downing or at least making B-17s ineffective from the Japanese side?
Post #: 1
RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 1:57:48 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		cannons. A6M is better than Oscar early. Nick will be the best you have in '42. It takes a lot of numbers to win and even then B17 aces will out number yours. What you count on are the operational losses that he cannot replace more than the actual kills. In '43 Jack/George will work well against them.

Good Luck!

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RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 2:01:27 AM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

cannons. A6M is better than Oscar early. Nick will be the best you have in '42. It takes a lot of numbers to win and even then B17 aces will out number yours. What you count on are the operational losses that he cannot replace more than the actual kills. In '43 Jack/George will work well against them.

Good Luck!


+1.

Army fighters once the Tony gets CL cannons they are good too. Frank B is a neat Army ftr, tough to get early.

12 cm AA works best, but is very limited until last qtr of 44. Don't let the beasties have a free run, make sure you have some AA protecting.

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Post #: 3
RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 5:20:19 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		Agree with all above. One problem with your fighters is their frailty (Oscars, Zeros), they just can't take any punishment. Besides the Nick your best early fighter for dealing with them is the Tojo, they're a little more robust. Don't expect miracles they're only marginal at best, but with numbers they should do OK. Another thing I do is bring in even 75mm AAA, again they won't shoot many 4E's down, but they should raise his OP losses. He may also decide to fly a bit higher and that should lower his accuracy. I find that 2 to 3 dozen guns is a good number. Again its more about discouragement than much else, if you can raise his losses enough he'll probably do something else as his replacement numbers are not that strong early game.

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RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 5:41:26 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		From the Allied prospective. Find them and bomb them. Accept the losses to your own bombers. They take forever to repair and the Allies get 15 a month. In fact that applies to the whole Allied air force. There are just no replacements for anything in the first year of the war. It is the only time that I would advise you just ramp up production and go after the Allied air force. Hope that he fights. You will lose big numbers yourself but the long term implications for the Allies are big. Even with moderate losses. the first year of the war finds the Allies with air units that have no planes. You should not allow us to build a reserve. This hinders operations and more important slows training. The Allies air force will not be a big factor until 1943. Grind them away if he will let you. It will speed your offensive operations during your happy time and slow their eventual recovery. It is what I would do if I were playing against me..

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RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 3:53:41 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Saburo Sakai complained how near impossible it was to stopping B 17's in his book SAMURAI.
He recollected making as many passes as his plane would allow and never touched it.
He claimed that later they learned o bring them down with head on passes.
The allies learned the planes nose was the most vulnerable and the plane acquired better bullet proofing in later models and a power chin blister MG mount.

The game mirrors actual events pretty well, especially considering the scale.

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RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 4:02:02 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		In this game its very easy. Just get have fighters intercept them and they will be shot down in droves.

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Post #: 7
RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 5:31:02 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Enough AA and fighter interception will guarantee operational losses + maybe a few lucky bombers shot down.

In the end Japan can easily replace interceptor losses. Allies can't replace B17 until much later

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 12/9/2015 6:31:50 PM >

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RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 5:32:21 PM   
histgamer

 

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Joined: 11/30/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

In this game its very easy. Just get have fighters intercept them and they will be shot down in droves.



That has not been my experience at all!

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Post #: 9
RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 5:38:10 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Very good pilots, cannon armed aircraft plus numbers.

If you've got more fighters than he's got bombers, then every kill you see on the combat animation is probably at least another one ops loss.

Don't waste Oscars on them till they have cannons

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RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 5:39:41 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
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From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

In this game its very easy. Just get have fighters intercept them and they will be shot down in droves.



That has not been my experience at all!


Well, my experience over a couple of thousands turns is that the ratio is about 1:1 (one lost B17 per airborne fighter). Might be a little lower against the 1st generation of Japanese fighters but certainly true for 2nd gen and later.

PS. Talking about unescorted 4Es.


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Post #: 11
RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 6:23:35 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

In this game its very easy. Just get have fighters intercept them and they will be shot down in droves.



That has not been my experience at all!


Well, my experience over a couple of thousands turns is that the ratio is about 1:1 (one lost B17 per airborne fighter). Might be a little lower against the 1st generation of Japanese fighters but certainly true for 2nd gen and later.

PS. Talking about unescorted 4Es.




I would agree on this. Bombers un-escorted get smoked. Same thing happened over Germany, but in this game your defending fighters can, and do, take their lumps as well.

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Post #: 12
RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 6:46:32 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		More information: You need to be at the right altitude to intercept the bombers, you need generous radar warning letting your planes time enough to get into position, you need flak, you need trained pilots in a2a and defense, you need cannons, and you need to be faster than the bomber (for best results). Good squadron leader helps too. Plentiful aviation support, big enough runway, and flying from the base that is being bombed, Air HQs help too.

Watch your plane fatigue, and pilot morale and fatigue.

It can be done...the A6M5c will really rip into B17s and isn't that hard to get early.




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Post #: 13
RE: B-17s - 12/9/2015 7:59:27 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Saburo Sakai complained how near impossible it was to stopping B 17's in his book SAMURAI.
He recollected making as many passes as his plane would allow and never touched it.
He claimed that later they learned o bring them down with head on passes.
The allies learned the planes nose was the most vulnerable and the plane acquired better bullet proofing in later models and a power chin blister MG mount.

The game mirrors actual events pretty well, especially considering the scale.



The weakness for the Japanese was the lack of any sort of group tactics-essential for attacking bomber formations. Part of this was due to poor doctrine but it was also a result of most Japanese fighters flying without decent radios. Impossible to coordinate without radios. Heavily armed bombers have to have their defenses saturated in order to have a chance against them. Even head on tactics would not work well as against a solo attack there usually another bomber in position to get a shot in at the attacker. Tactical coordination was never a Japanese strong point and they paid dearly for it as the Allies got better at it.

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Post #: 14
RE: B-17s - 12/10/2015 4:15:26 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

In this game its very easy. Just get have fighters intercept them and they will be shot down in droves.



That has not been my experience at all!


Your experience playing which side? Against a human?

Many players have used them to sweep including me. The problem with using Zeros against them is they're too valuable and the pilots may be irreplaceable even if you have a good training program. If you've lost all your carriers go ahead. It could be a training issue with the B-17 crews.

From the Allied perspective I find the B-17s too important early on to do naval search. If you also train them on that and Naval attack (I would) they might not be as proficient at battling fighters. My doctrine with training is that at least half of your crews for any type of aircraft (fighters, bombers, reccon etc.) should be training full time. Dedicated search crews can learn on the job. Get them training on ASW when you can. Naval attack too, they will automatically attack those targets.

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