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CV TF ideas - 12/14/2015 5:15:03 AM

Ddog

Posts: 230
Joined: 2/17/2005
From: Cincinnati, OH
Status: offline

I'm a horrible CV commander. Can I get some ideas on TF make up and a few pointers. Tired of getting my Azz handed to me at sea. If this has already been discussed, please point me in the right direction.

Cheers

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RE: CV TF ideas - 12/14/2015 6:01:23 AM

Barb

Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline

Hi,
just a few basic hints:

1) Keep your CVTFs within "air coordination penalty" (IIRC it is 150+rnd(150) in 1942, 200+rnd(200) in 1943 and 250+rnd(250) in 1944 and thereafter for the allies, and 250+rnd(250) for the japan at all times) and keep the altitudes the same/close for best coordination (there is nothing more pissing out than 200 TBs escorted by 20 fighters followed by 200 fighters escorting a handful of DBs...)
2) Keep some FAST BBs in your CVTFs - they will soak some bombs away from carriers, and provide hell of a AA fire.
3) Keep enough DDs in your CVTFs to allow even for damaged ships to have proper escorts
4) Keep your best pilots on carriers - basic settings of 50% CAP/Escort for fighters, 90% NavAtk/NavS for DBs and 100% NavAtk/for TBs will do in most cases
5) CVEs were not built for a fleet battle!
6) Use every possible mean to raise DL of your target (be it enemy carriers or whatever) - subs, Night Naval Search, Naval Search from land, float planes, carrier planes
7) Use good TF/Ship/Air leaders if you can spare PPs - Naval/Air for TF, Naval/Agr for ships, Air/Agr for fighters, Nav/Agr for TBs/DBs
8) Try to have some support around - cloud of subs, Land based fighter/bomber support
9) pray for good rolls and weather

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Post #: 2

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/14/2015 9:05:03 AM

Jorge_Stanbury

Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline

For point 1) I would argue that as Allies, I am willing to take the "air coordination" penalty as less dangerous/ damaging than spliting it into multiple TFs, this due to the risk of some TF reacting, some not reacting.

For point 4) I like to have always at least one fighter squadron at 100% CAP, range 0

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 12/14/2015 10:05:38 AM >

(in reply to Barb)

Post #: 3

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/14/2015 10:12:38 AM

Anachro

Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline

quote:

150+rnd(150)

What does this mean?

(in reply to Barb)

Post #: 4

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/14/2015 11:00:41 AM

AndyDuke

Posts: 34
Joined: 5/15/2010
Status: offline

150 plus a random value in the range 1 to 150. So in this case keep the number of aircraft in a task force to AT MOST 300, but preferably nearer 150 to minimise the risk of bad coordination.

p.s. I also try to use the weather to my advantage where possible i.e. hide in the poorer weather when the enemy is under clear skies then I may spot him more easily than he can spot me.

Andy

(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 5

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/14/2015 12:07:45 PM

Anachro

Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
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Oh, is this alleviated for allies by having multiple CV TFs, or does this apply to all ally TFs in the same hex in aggregate?

(in reply to AndyDuke)

Post #: 6

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/14/2015 12:10:36 PM

koniu

Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

quote:

150+rnd(150)

What does this mean?

Someone correct me if i am wrong

I see this like that
Coordination penalty can happen if in single TF have between 150 plus random number between 1 and 150 of planes.
So critical number is between 151 and 300 planes in TF depending of dice rolls.
301 or more planes will always give penalty.

Also coordination penalty is not so scary. Having coordination penalty mean that chance that planes will not coordinate will double.
Only chance will double they still can(and usually will) coordinate

< Message edited by koniu -- 12/14/2015 1:18:24 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/14/2015 12:48:16 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

correct as I know it.

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Post #: 8

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/14/2015 2:59:37 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Hi,
just a few basic hints:

1) Keep your CVTFs within "air coordination penalty" (IIRC it is 150+rnd(150) in 1942, 200+rnd(200) in 1943 and 250+rnd(250) in 1944 and thereafter for the allies, and 250+rnd(250) for the japan at all times) and keep the altitudes the same/close for best coordination (there is nothing more pissing out than 200 TBs escorted by 20 fighters followed by 200 fighters escorting a handful of DBs...)
2) Keep some FAST BBs in your CVTFs - they will soak some bombs away from carriers, and provide hell of a AA fire.
3) Keep enough DDs in your CVTFs to allow even for damaged ships to have proper escorts
4) Keep your best pilots on carriers - basic settings of 50% CAP/Escort for fighters, 90% NavAtk/NavS for DBs and 100% NavAtk/for TBs will do in most cases
5) CVEs were not built for a fleet battle!
6) Use every possible mean to raise DL of your target (be it enemy carriers or whatever) - subs, Night Naval Search, Naval Search from land, float planes, carrier planes
7) Use good TF/Ship/Air leaders if you can spare PPs - Naval/Air for TF, Naval/Agr for ships, Air/Agr for fighters, Nav/Agr for TBs/DBs
8) Try to have some support around - cloud of subs, Land based fighter/bomber support
9) pray for good rolls and weather

I am with Jorge here. All of this is good advice except during the first year and a half of the war, I keep all of my big six carriers together in one TF. Coordination might be an issue but never has yet. The risk of splitting carrier TFs and having one react towards the enemy and get creamed is too much for me. I never want to go into battle with "one boot off." So they stay together when they are working together. The other thing is that I refrain from assigning high aggression commanders such as Halsey. Use a good leader with average aggression. This helps to prevent reactions and even worse multiple reactions. Otherwise I pretty much agree with all of the above.

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Post #: 9

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/14/2015 10:06:31 PM

Ddog

Posts: 230
Joined: 2/17/2005
From: Cincinnati, OH
Status: offline

Thanks for all the great advice!!

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Post #: 10

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/15/2015 12:47:23 AM

geofflambert

Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

My advice is, if you're thinking about playing the Allies, think twice. If you're thinking about playing the Japanese think thrice cubed.

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Post #: 11

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/15/2015 1:18:22 AM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

And now, simply in the spirit of diversity, I'll highlight below where I break these rules

. What follows applies to Allies only in some cases.

FYI the penalty threshold is 100 + (1-100) and increasing each by 50 per year. It's in the manual. 100/150/200. But keep in mind that it's only a doubling of the CHANCE, not a guaranteed fragmentation of your strike. If the chance is 3% because all of your other factors are superb, then it's 6% if you break the threshold. Big deal, says I. I don't know that those are the actual numbers but I almost never suffer fragmented strikes. In my most recent carrier battle, I had ~300 planes in one strike from 2 TFs with only a few (if any) squadrons fragmenting, and still had several hundred planes on CAP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Hi,
just a few basic hints:

1) Keep your CVTFs within "air coordination penalty" (IIRC it is 150+rnd(150) in 1942, 200+rnd(200) in 1943 and 250+rnd(250) in 1944 and thereafter for the allies, and 250+rnd(250) for the japan at all times) and keep the altitudes the same/close for best coordination (there is nothing more pissing out than 200 TBs escorted by 20 fighters followed by 200 fighters escorting a handful of DBs...)
I am never under the air coordination penalty threshold (keep in mind it is not a guaranteed penalty, read carefully!), unless there are not enough decks available.

2) Keep some FAST BBs in your CVTFs - they will soak some bombs away from carriers, and provide hell of a AA fire.
I don't always do this. Late war, yes. Early war, almost never.

3) Keep enough DDs in your CVTFs to allow even for damaged ships to have proper escorts
Yeah OK. I usually run 6-8 of them.

4) Keep your best pilots on carriers - basic settings of 50% CAP/Escort for fighters, 90% NavAtk/NavS for DBs and 100% NavAtk/for TBs will do in most cases
Absolutely NOT on the fighter settings, at least within units. I look at what I'm going to probably fight against and set CAP accordingly, with dedicated CAP and escort units (this eliminates fatigue as a problem). If I can't also send enough escorts, then it's a no-go battle for me. I don't set Helldivers to search, ever - it's a waste of their excellent payload. I keep a unit or two of SBDs around sometimes, or otherwise use TBs (particularly the 9-plane groups on CVLs, which I will set to 70% search and none on attack).

5) CVEs were not built for a fleet battle!
I use them all the same...

6) Use every possible mean to raise DL of your target (be it enemy carriers or whatever) - subs, Night Naval Search, Naval Search from land, float planes, carrier planes
Night naval search is not always helpful, as DLs clear between night and day phases.

7) Use good TF/Ship/Air leaders if you can spare PPs - Naval/Air for TF, Naval/Agr for ships, Air/Agr for fighters, Nav/Agr for TBs/DBs
There is no "if" here, except in the sense that "If you don't do this, you will lose the battle." You need to make sure your squadron leaders have 60+ in Air, Inspiration, and Leadership (in that order).

8) Try to have some support around - cloud of subs, Land based fighter/bomber support
Subs optional but sometimes useful.

9) pray for good rolls and weather

(in reply to Barb)

Post #: 12

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/15/2015 1:19:27 AM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Hi,
just a few basic hints:

1) Keep your CVTFs within "air coordination penalty" (IIRC it is 150+rnd(150) in 1942, 200+rnd(200) in 1943 and 250+rnd(250) in 1944 and thereafter for the allies, and 250+rnd(250) for the japan at all times) and keep the altitudes the same/close for best coordination (there is nothing more pissing out than 200 TBs escorted by 20 fighters followed by 200 fighters escorting a handful of DBs...)
2) Keep some FAST BBs in your CVTFs - they will soak some bombs away from carriers, and provide hell of a AA fire.
3) Keep enough DDs in your CVTFs to allow even for damaged ships to have proper escorts
4) Keep your best pilots on carriers - basic settings of 50% CAP/Escort for fighters, 90% NavAtk/NavS for DBs and 100% NavAtk/for TBs will do in most cases
5) CVEs were not built for a fleet battle!
6) Use every possible mean to raise DL of your target (be it enemy carriers or whatever) - subs, Night Naval Search, Naval Search from land, float planes, carrier planes
7) Use good TF/Ship/Air leaders if you can spare PPs - Naval/Air for TF, Naval/Agr for ships, Air/Agr for fighters, Nav/Agr for TBs/DBs
8) Try to have some support around - cloud of subs, Land based fighter/bomber support
9) pray for good rolls and weather

I am with Jorge here. All of this is good advice except during the first year and a half of the war, I keep all of my big six carriers together in one TF. Coordination might be an issue but never has yet. The risk of splitting carrier TFs and having one react towards the enemy and get creamed is too much for me. I never want to go into battle with "one boot off." So they stay together when they are working together. The other thing is that I refrain from assigning high aggression commanders such as Halsey. Use a good leader with average aggression. This helps to prevent reactions and even worse multiple reactions. Otherwise I pretty much agree with all of the above.

Halsey (and both Spruances) keep my benches warm. I always think that someday I might use them (maybe in the late war, when KB's pretty much gone), but stick with Sherman, Clark, Fitch, etc. Sherman is great.

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 13

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/15/2015 6:06:48 AM

Barb

Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

And now, simply in the spirit of diversity, I'll highlight below where I break these rules . What follows applies to Allies only in some cases.

FYI the penalty threshold is 100 + (1-100) and increasing each by 50 per year. It's in the manual. 100/150/200. But keep in mind that it's only a doubling of the CHANCE, not a guaranteed fragmentation of your strike. If the chance is 3% because all of your other factors are superb, then it's 6% if you break the threshold. Big deal, says I. I don't know that those are the actual numbers but I almost never suffer fragmented strikes. In my most recent carrier battle, I had ~300 planes in one strike from 2 TFs with only a few (if any) squadrons fragmenting, and still had several hundred planes on CAP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Hi,
just a few basic hints:

1) Keep your CVTFs within "air coordination penalty" (IIRC it is 150+rnd(150) in 1942, 200+rnd(200) in 1943 and 250+rnd(250) in 1944 and thereafter for the allies, and 250+rnd(250) for the japan at all times) and keep the altitudes the same/close for best coordination (there is nothing more pissing out than 200 TBs escorted by 20 fighters followed by 200 fighters escorting a handful of DBs...)
I am never under the air coordination penalty threshold (keep in mind it is not a guaranteed penalty, read carefully!), unless there are not enough decks available.

2) Keep some FAST BBs in your CVTFs - they will soak some bombs away from carriers, and provide hell of a AA fire.
I don't always do this. Late war, yes. Early war, almost never.

3) Keep enough DDs in your CVTFs to allow even for damaged ships to have proper escorts
Yeah OK. I usually run 6-8 of them.

4) Keep your best pilots on carriers - basic settings of 50% CAP/Escort for fighters, 90% NavAtk/NavS for DBs and 100% NavAtk/for TBs will do in most cases
Absolutely NOT on the fighter settings, at least within units. I look at what I'm going to probably fight against and set CAP accordingly, with dedicated CAP and escort units (this eliminates fatigue as a problem). If I can't also send enough escorts, then it's a no-go battle for me. I don't set Helldivers to search, ever - it's a waste of their excellent payload. I keep a unit or two of SBDs around sometimes, or otherwise use TBs (particularly the 9-plane groups on CVLs, which I will set to 70% search and none on attack).

5) CVEs were not built for a fleet battle!
I use them all the same...

6) Use every possible mean to raise DL of your target (be it enemy carriers or whatever) - subs, Night Naval Search, Naval Search from land, float planes, carrier planes
Night naval search is not always helpful, as DLs clear between night and day phases.

7) Use good TF/Ship/Air leaders if you can spare PPs - Naval/Air for TF, Naval/Agr for ships, Air/Agr for fighters, Nav/Agr for TBs/DBs
There is no "if" here, except in the sense that "If you don't do this, you will lose the battle." You need to make sure your squadron leaders have 60+ in Air, Inspiration, and Leadership (in that order).

8) Try to have some support around - cloud of subs, Land based fighter/bomber support
Subs optional but sometimes useful.

9) pray for good rolls and weather

My advices were on the "general" side of the things. Of course each situation demands different approach.
1) Sticking multiple carriers in single TF - SOP for Japs, not so for early Allies (but they shouldn't go to fight KB that early anyway) - Yet allies can replace losses suffered in uncoordinated strikes much more easily then Japan...
2) As allies you usually do not have any fast battleships to accompany carriers anyway (PoW and Repulse are the only ones fast enough until SoDak and Washington). As Japs you dont have to as allies wont penetrate KB CAP that early or at prohibitive loss to themselves...
3) In TF of 25 ships (max CVTF - for allies - 4CV/CVLs, 2BBs, 2CA, CLAA i would go for 12-16 DDs). 6-8 are not that many (if you have to detach damaged carrier or two).
4) Depends - in 1942 you can search with SBDs, later with TBFs. Also what I wrote was "will do in most cases".
5) Well I would not try to take on full KB in 1943/1944 with just CVEs around... They are great at many things, but you do not want them to meet the KB alone!
6) Just the first part of the DL. The second part lowers by 1 after each phase. Thus if you have spotted a TF at night for 4/4 it will get 0/3 in the morning - the second part of the DL means there is some general information making subsequent detections more easy/probable...

< Message edited by Barb -- 12/15/2015 7:07:30 AM >

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Post #: 14

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/15/2015 2:04:12 PM

Anachro

Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Halsey (and both Spruances) keep my benches warm. I always think that someday I might use them (maybe in the late war, when KB's pretty much gone), but stick with Sherman, Clark, Fitch, etc. Sherman is great.

I understand your reasoning. It just doesn't sit right with me to emit such legends from their proper place at the head of a CV task force. Do you use them at all?

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 15

RE: CV TF ideas - 12/15/2015 2:45:52 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Halsey (and both Spruances) keep my benches warm. I always think that someday I might use them (maybe in the late war, when KB's pretty much gone), but stick with Sherman, Clark, Fitch, etc. Sherman is great.

I understand your reasoning. It just doesn't sit right with me to emit such legends from their proper place at the head of a CV task force. Do you use them at all?

Halsey is still sitting in my commander pools

. Really, I should suck it up and use him on a surface task force. I use Admiral Lee, for example...

I think in one of my games I might have Spruance leading a TF, but maybe not. Or it might be that he was leading a TF, but as my CVs have been sunk and I cycled from 3 TFs to 2 TFs, he wasn't chosen for command. I just checked on my game in August 1944, and I am using:

Sherman (Air 87 - Aggr 74) and Towers (Air 73 - Aggr 53) for my 2 "Big Blue Fleets", and Montgomery, Clark, and Reeves for my present CVE TFs. I typically have between 2 and 4 of them running about.

Now that I'm looking at my pools, I should be using Mitscher... I had him out at one point, but haven't for a while. I also notice that Spruance is only Aggr 63. I had thought it was in the 70s, which is "think about this" territory for me. On the other other hand, the way I use my CVs I don't think they'd react except for when the CO wouldn't matter (if my Aggr 53 guy reacted 4 times...) and I haven't had issues with undersized strike packages, so... all this is to say that I should probably just be using the COs with the best air skills, regardless of Aggr ratings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

My advices were on the "general" side of the things. Of course each situation demands different approach.
1) Sticking multiple carriers in single TF - SOP for Japs, not so for early Allies (but they shouldn't go to fight KB that early anyway) - Yet allies can replace losses suffered in uncoordinated strikes much more easily then Japan...
2) As allies you usually do not have any fast battleships to accompany carriers anyway (PoW and Repulse are the only ones fast enough until SoDak and Washington). As Japs you dont have to as allies wont penetrate KB CAP that early or at prohibitive loss to themselves...
3) In TF of 25 ships (max CVTF - for allies - 4CV/CVLs, 2BBs, 2CA, CLAA i would go for 12-16 DDs). 6-8 are not that many (if you have to detach damaged carrier or two).
4) Depends - in 1942 you can search with SBDs, later with TBFs. Also what I wrote was "will do in most cases".
5) Well I would not try to take on full KB in 1943/1944 with just CVEs around... They are great at many things, but you do not want them to meet the KB alone!
6) Just the first part of the DL. The second part lowers by 1 after each phase. Thus if you have spotted a TF at night for 4/4 it will get 0/3 in the morning - the second part of the DL means there is some general information making subsequent detections more easy/probable...

1) I still disagree! The Allied CVs should be kept together at all times. At least 2 in a TF (so in 1942 you're running 2 TFs). After that, grow them as you receive more decks. With proper leaders, you won't really suffer from the coordination penalty. I've launched many a strike with my CVs and can't recall a time when the penalty hit me.

2) Yep, that's why. Force Z are the only fast ones until the North Carolinas, and while I will keep those guys around my CVs they aren't always in the CV TFs... they're too useful to bombard a base, etc.

3) 25 ships for a CV TF? That's mad! Mine are usually more like 16-18, and 6-8 DDs for that size is plenty. Depending on what's available, mine usually look like 2-3 CV, 2-4 CVL, 0-2 BB, 0-1 CA/CL, 1-2 CLAA, and 6-10 DD. I'd say I usually hit 17-18 ships, although it might hit 19-20 if I add the BBs. ASW rating is typically around 70 and AA rating is well into the 5 digits.

The reason I don't add more ships is I prefer to have secondary TFs, even if it's just 10 DDs, in the same hex.

4) American TBs are so bad (and the accuracy on the torpedoes is awful, although I've had some luck with them lately) that I try to sacrifice as little of the DB payloads as possible. TBFs do the searching whenever possible. They also have better range until the SBD-5 arrives with drop tanks.

5) I didn't say I used the CVEs solo, but they're a great way to supplement your CAP

.

6) Ah, yeah. It's been so long since I've had to deal with low DLs that I forgot this could make a difference. The 4/4 at night -> 0/3 before morning phase could mean the difference between DL 5/6 and DL 8/9 - which can be huge when it comes to strike packages. A DL of only 5/6 on an invasion TF could see your CV commander launch only 1 DB unit, for example, when really they needed the full air wing.

(in reply to Anachro)

Post #: 16