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RE: Fascist Tide - 1/5/2016 4:28:39 PM

paulderynck

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
My OP regarded the fact that Fascist Tide is in fact available for internal playtesting, although incomplete, and my modest request was to get this out sooner rather than later, warts and all, so I and others who are holding out for this ETO scenario can start playing the game we want to play. Release it already. Like Yogi Berra said, if folks are determined to not play MWiF until Fascist Tide is available then nobody's gonna stop them.

You were given the wrong impression. We beta testers can only play Fascist Tide the same way you can play it right now - without all the special rules.

_____________________________

Paul

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Post #: 31

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/5/2016 5:40:56 PM

brian brian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Since I started this thread, I'll provide a serious answer. Of course I have considered this. But, I want to play an ETO game. I do not want to play a PTO or Global War game. It's that simple. I've been waiting two years for Fascist Tide and I'll keep on waiting, looking at my MWiF manuals still in plastic wrapping on the shelf, until this game is ready to be played. Until then, I have better things to do with my time. I'll probably have my Advanced Third Reich mod, with challenging AI scripting for both sides, for Strategic Command 3 up and running before I see Fascist Tide, without any AI in sight.

My OP regarded the fact that Fascist Tide is in fact available for internal playtesting, although incomplete, and my modest request was to get this out sooner rather than later, warts and all, so I and others who are holding out for this ETO scenario can start playing the game we want to play. Release it already. Like Yogi Berra said, if folks are determined to not play MWiF until Fascist Tide is available then nobody's gonna stop them.

So basically you will do heavy personal lifting of writing a mod for another game, but you won't consider some simple work-arounds for another game? (If I am reading you correctly that you are personally writing a mod somehow involving two other games).

I think you should fire up Global War and play through the French campaign at least to see how feasible my idea is. Allow the Sydney MIL to arrive at Suez in exchange for two turns of not using the Queens, starting them anywhere on the map and ending it at Suez on the 2nd turn. Allow one Indian INF to do the same in 1940 in exchange for one turn of a CW TRS starting in an any east African port and ending in Suez. Add the Indian MOT in 1941 via the same process. Do not allow them to be replaced if lost in Europe.

Just skipping Asian activities in this game seems easier than writing a mod for another game. Maybe just use the production rules from Fascist Tide to create a total to spend on European units and have the CW and USA build Forts with the excess Build Points available during Global War (minus whenever the CW draws an Australian counter), and drop them in obscure Australian and USA desert hexes. Use the published scenarios to decide which Royal Navy ships must sit in CapeTown doing nothing. Only a very few USN ships moved between the major theaters (Wasp was one, possibly Yorktown), shouldn't be hard to sort out.

Play it already. What is completed and being tested will require just as many work-arounds ultimately as just doing it yourself, though quite possibly with more bugs than the DIY approach.

Steve I think you might want to consider just leaving Africa (and probably India) as it is in the game in it's entirety, including allowing normal naval use of the sea zones on the east coast of Africa. Maybe the No-Go limit could be the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean zones below it. That sounds easier to set-up in programming code than the paper game's construct of the Transfer Pool which is mostly there to save the players from having to use the paper Asian map.

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Post #: 32

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/5/2016 7:58:22 PM

brian brian

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I am a little intrigued now by how to approach this. In the paper game, there has to be the Transfer Pool work-arounds for the missing paper - extra maps. Not an issue at all on the computer. But ultimately a Fascist Tide scenario has to allow the CW the historical option of reinforcing Egypt by sailing around the Cape.

I am now curious if another approach has been considered - instead of going through a lot of work to recreate a paper work-around, could the following approach work? A lot would depend on the set-up of the data structures in MWiF.

Instead of coding extra rules - units may not enter, locked-in place convoy points, etc., how about just remove any incentive to go certain places? Make all the Asian countries neutral (unless aligned to a 1939 or 1941 Major Power), and remove them from the Declaration of War menu. Also simply delete any resource or factory not on the official maps used for Fascist Tide, or not listed in the special "Off Map Resources list" = keep the ones closest to the Europe maps. Can a MWiF scenario use a modified data file for the map? Even this may not be as simple as I describe it as really Fascist Tide is a bit generous in giving the CW off-map oil and a little special fudging might still be required.

And delete entries from the Partisan table as required.

I mean the Fascist Tide scenario is in and of itself a work-around to start with, and can only be solved by more special work-arounds to make an electronic version. Lines have to be drawn on where a unit can go or not go, but that begs the question - why? Just so players can simulate War in Europe without the Pacific? What I'm saying is, just delete countries and force pools rather than add as much special code. I mean there are existing scenarios with and without whole Major Powers (France in Global War but not mid-game scenarios).

Also delete the CW units not allowed, which are only the low-end infantry class units, and let the CW pick up the others in their home country as normally, without special coding. Or perhaps special coding that those units alone disappear once built, as the intent of Fascist Tide seems to be to let the CW have off-map sourced resources but not 100% of the units from there, though they would still be a drain on CW production. And the USN units not available at-start can never appear either.

This would leave just two things requiring new code (though I could well be forgetting something) - the Victory Point calculations for the decisions the CW makes on how much naval the CW commits to the Pacific, and the appearance of Japanese raiding units. Just making over-ride / special exception type code for those units alone will be enough work in and of itself.

< Message edited by brian brian -- 1/5/2016 9:04:27 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/6/2016 12:02:11 AM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
You were given the wrong impression. We beta testers can only play Fascist Tide the same way you can play it right now - without all the special rules.

Paul, I understand the special rules still need coding. But the scenario is still not available to general players. I would like to start a game from scratch with my custom set of optional rules, the game I would like to play, and not a copy of a FastStart.

I assume you beta testers have a version of the Fascist Tide scenario, without all the special rules, that you can start from scratch? All I'm respectfully asking is for this to be officially released. I'll wait.

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Post #: 34

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/6/2016 9:04:56 AM

paulderynck

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It may be that we can choose that scenario with the beta version and you cannot - I don't know for sure because I'm traveling this week and don't have access to a beta copy and a public copy like I do at home. Have you tried launching MWiF and choosing the Fascist Tide scenario?

If you can, then what you see is the same as what we see.

_____________________________

Paul

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Post #: 35

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/6/2016 1:03:56 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It may be that we can choose that scenario with the beta version and you cannot

Exactly, and that is my point. All I'm asking is that since it is available in the beta version, then why not make it available for the rest of us? Yes, I got it that it's beta and does not have all the special rules coded yet, etc. Regardless, whenever it gets released would be a plus for several of us still waiting patiently for Fascist Tide...

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Post #: 36

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/6/2016 3:09:48 PM

brian brian

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You know you could even simulate the Japanese raids into the Transfer Pool manually in Global War by still ignoring the Chinese and Japanese counters completely but moving just enough of the specific Japanese counters to the Andaman Islands in Nov/Dec 41 to carry out the raid results dictated by a web-based die roll somewhere. One DOW, one surprise invasion of an empty hex from the base at Canton, a Convoy Point move, a pair of TRS moves with the 2 land-based air counters and a Return to Base for a squadron of ships and it is ready to go whenever the German player rolls that special single die once per turn. Then give that base the Fascist Tide rules invulnerability and don't allow the CW to Port Strike it, or mess with it's supply connections.

That would leave just a manual calculation of Victory Points based on how many ships the CW player puts in park somewhere as per the scenario rules. And definitely some US Entry fudging also, maybe via moving Japanese into Chinese cities at a pace to keep up with the special doubled value of the US Entry chits. A bit of a pickle there. Oh dear, more user heavy lifting or special coding, there goes the project further down the calendar.

I expect the special coding (and then the inevitable bug finding and fixing) to play Fascist Tide as written by ADG is 6 months to a year out, though I see little reason why the war with Germany can't be generally played out right now, if desired - one could even just go historical and have Germany DOW the USA in Nov/Dec 41 for convenience (and recall to dump the excess US Build Points into pointless Fort construction). I'm sure someone would be wiling to save a "Fast Start" scenario that dumps just the Chinese, Japanese, and Pacific USN into about 8 hexes each so even that terrible bit of heavy lifting could be skipped and there you have it - a beta version of Fascist Tide, already sitting inside of every copy of MWiF already sold.

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Post #: 37

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/6/2016 3:27:28 PM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It may be that we can choose that scenario with the beta version and you cannot

Exactly, and that is my point. All I'm asking is that since it is available in the beta version, then why not make it available for the rest of us? Yes, I got it that it's beta and does not have all the special rules coded yet, etc. Regardless, whenever it gets released would be a plus for several of us still waiting patiently for Fascist Tide...

It's not for us to decide, if an unfinished scenario can be made available for all customers. That's for Matrix and the programmer to do so.
However: imagine what could happen with your not fully coded Fascist Tide game, when Steve suddenly introduces the fully coded scenario in a patch? I don't think you would be happy as a customer if you find out things are not working anymore, because you didn't have a Transfer pool and the special production rules at the time you've started a not fully coded half map scenario...
I don't think Steve wants to spend time for additional coding to prevent this from happening (I surely don't want to have Steve spending time for this).

If you want to spend time on a "Fascist Tide" thing, use Global War, read the rules book and simulate things the way Mr. Brian Brian has stated.

_____________________________

Peter

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Post #: 38

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/6/2016 4:03:35 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
It's not for us to decide, if an unfinished scenario can be made available for all customers. That's for Matrix and the programmer to do so.

Again, exactly, that is my point. It's up to Matrix and Steve to decide when to release this. Sooner rather than later would be nice.

And it is NOT for you or Brian Brian or anyone else to decide how anyone else should play their games, which scenarios they should play, which optional rules they should play with, etc. etc. You guys are missing a very simple point. That is all. OK fine, I will continue to wait, for another two years if needed.. .

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 39

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/6/2016 4:37:48 PM

brian brian

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I am not deciding for you, merely suggesting some fairly simple ways you could fast-forward through those additional two years, which could be likely. And kicking around ideas on how to reduce that period of time, for you and everyone else. I think junking the Transfer Pool concept could speed it up considerably; writing additional Victory Point calculation and US Entry code shouldn't be too difficult to add on top of existing structure, but the mechanics of using specific Japanese ships to participate in a war, minus the rest of their Major Power, will be quite a challenge for Steve at numerous points in the hard code.

I don't get your point, which seems to be akin to most critics of this project. And that is that the game is not 100% perfected the way someone wants it to be, so they categorically reject any alternative route to get to where they want it to be, even though those exist. Call the Waaaaaaahmbulance and keep waiting in the meantime and play some other game since you are essentially refusing to compromise in any way to just play this one.

What you are asking for in the beta-scenario is essentially already in the product available though it would take, I don't know, 5 whole minutes to drop Pacific units on the map and then never touch them again? 10? After that a beta tester of Fascist Tide is on their own anyway, though I guess they wouldn't suffer the indignity of another 5 minutes / turn selecting Pass impulses and saving build points until an Offensive Chit could be built without ever having to put it on the map even.

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Post #: 40

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/6/2016 4:47:17 PM

brian brian

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Maybe if the map and counters are easily editable by the scenario loading process the Germans could be given a Primary supply source in the Andaman Islands and then the Japanese ships could be set up there as captured counters. That would still leave breaking the action limits if Germany wished to roll the raid die during one of their land impulses, and ultimately some German player would break through at Suez and exploit the fudged hex somehow, all leading to more special coding, somehow. But perhaps less of a nightmare than writing a new map with a special zone that takes 2 movement points to enter or exit, but is accessible to airplane counters flying in from a virtual base somewhere, in full supply. What a mess.

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Post #: 41

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/6/2016 6:19:08 PM

brian brian

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oh and eventually there is perhaps a simple solution to the Japanese raid device - abstract it further. make it a die roll dependent on the given year modifiers, and perhaps the CW force-in-Pacific commitment decision and then just make the result lost convoy points. trade-offs have to be made to get such a detailed game computerized in general, I don't think trading away specific naval combat would really impact the play of the scenario. It would be a little less fun for the German player who would never get the thrill of commanding the Zuikaku, but so it goes and that German player could always try Global War next time.

so the changes would be - slight resource hex total tweaks; US entry system tweak; Aussie/Kiwi leg infantry units immobilized/removed upon appearance on the map; Victory Point calculation tweak; abstract Japanese raids occasionally removing CW CPs; no movement restrictions/changes; some countries can never enter game (DOW restrictions). seems a lot more do-able than re-creating every paper game structure that are themselves work-arounds.

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Post #: 42

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/6/2016 6:56:59 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
I don't get your point, which seems to be akin to most critics of this project.

Brian, knock it off already. My simple point was that I made a very simple and specific request in my OP. All the rest here is irrelevant to that one simple point. And frankly your condescending remarks are crossing a line and are not at all helpful, so please stop already. I will continue to wait until the Fascist Tide ETO scenario is officially released by Steve and Matrix Games, whenever that may be...

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Post #: 43

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/6/2016 9:32:19 PM

brian brian

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Well I was trying to be helpful. If you would rather wait, have at it. I play Europe-centric World in Flames all the time, it's not hard to do; and it makes a great Europe-only game, and a better solitaire game in Europe than in the Pacific. I'm sorry you can't enjoy it too.

I would note here that only experienced Word in Flames players (and owners of the cardboard game) can take the route I am suggesting - because the only way to know how many Resources/Factories the USA receives in a Europe-only (or Pacific-only) scenario is to look at the paper maps, which put a "West Coast USA" box on the edge of the Pacific map and an "East Coast USA" box on the edge of the Western European map. If anyone wants me to look those #s up, I could. The rest of the work-arounds could be figured out by simply reading the published scenario rules, included in MWiF.

And for the record I feel that anyone who purchased the game should be given access to any beta material generated, though the material for Fascist Tide so far would gain anyone very little, it sounds like. I can't totally agree with the idea that this would cause bug-report confusion. Isn't part of bug reporting including finding them in the beta versions? Could a larger pool of beta testers not help the process somehow? Instead this refusal is causing more bad feelings for very little reason, or gain, that I can see. But I don't own and operate a software business.

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Post #: 44

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/7/2016 6:53:43 AM

Joseignacio

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
I don't get your point, which seems to be akin to most critics of this project.

Brian, knock it off already. My simple point was that I made a very simple and specific request in my OP. All the rest here is irrelevant to that one simple point. And frankly your condescending remarks are crossing a line and are not at all helpful, so please stop already. I will continue to wait until the Fascist Tide ETO scenario is officially released by Steve and Matrix Games, whenever that may be...

pzgndr, sorry to have to ask but, what is an "OP"? Open post?

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Post #: 45

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/7/2016 11:58:37 AM

pzgndr

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OP = original post? What started as a very simple request and consideration for Steve to go ahead and include the Fascist Tide scenario, warts and all, in an upcoming release sooner rather than later went off on an unnecessary tangent. In the future I will try to be more specific, and try not get involved with other irrelevant comments from others.

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Post #: 46

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/7/2016 12:14:37 PM

Joseignacio

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thx

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Post #: 47

RE: Fascist Tide - 1/25/2016 1:14:25 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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I added new code for the USSR resources for Fascist Tide today. Note that the 4 factories and 4 non-oil resources off the eastern map edge (i.e., in Siberia) is handled as 4 Production Points from Asia and the Pacific.

USSR: 4 factories and 4 general resources off east map edge.
USSR: 6 oil [Grozny, Baku, & (68, 77)] and 7 general resources [Siberia with column < 113]