RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cut by promotion?

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RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/15/2016 1:42:55 PM

mktours

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

I think the game should display a message, like this:
Dear player, we sadly inform you, that according to some random dice roll, the famous Model has been killed, he no longer exist. But you get a replacement, an inf 8 rating General, although he is not as good as Model, and he didn't exist in real history, we hope you could enjoy his exist in this game. You could name him X107.

You make a significant error in your thinking by assuming that the initial ratings are an accurate portrayal of historical performance. They are not, the initial ratings are arbitrary too. Who is to say that Model was indeed infantry 9 and not infantry 8 in his performance during the war? You are completely overblowing the issue. That's why you are not getting the reaction you want from other players.

I guess the developing team of Wite might not agree on your comment that the initial rating of leaders are 'arbitrary', you really take their pride away. I think the data are quite correct and I believe they are results of hard working of the developing team.

So you believe Model's rating should be inf 8? I hope the Wite team could notice your feedback and could have a good discussion with you. I believe that the team are welcoming feedback from players, maybe they are just lacking of time.

(in reply to SigUp)

Post #: 31

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/15/2016 1:43:21 PM

KWG

Posts: 1249
Joined: 9/29/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Sometimes when promoted they would take some of their staff to the new command. Sometimes promoted commander did not click as well with the new command's staff and other times the new pairing was a perfect match.

I think all 3 possibilities would be great in game:

Stats go up
Stats go down
Stats stay same

So you are a fan of lottery? Yes, random events could be fun, depends on one's preference.

Lottery?

Reasons.

Changes, or not, in command stats due to the real world reasons Ive listed.

_____________________________

"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."

(in reply to mktours)

Post #: 32

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/15/2016 1:49:04 PM

mktours

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Sometimes when promoted they would take some of their staff to the new command. Sometimes promoted commander did not click as well with the new command's staff and other times the new pairing was a perfect match.

I think all 3 possibilities would be great in game:

Stats go up
Stats go down
Stats stay same

So you are a fan of lottery? Yes, random events could be fun, depends on one's preference.

Lottery?

Reasons.

Changes, or not, in command stats due to the real world reasons Ive listed.

Just kidding, please don't mind. I am sorry.
I see your point. But that require the data of the Staffs, too complicated to simulate in the game.

(in reply to KWG)

Post #: 33

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/15/2016 2:07:56 PM

KWG

Posts: 1249
Joined: 9/29/2012
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quote:

Just kidding, please don't mind. I am sorry.
I see your point. But that require the data of the Staffs, too complicated to simulate in the game.

Its OK , you made a good point.

Its good to express ideas and opinions that are opposite - It sharpens the sword.

The game is lottery or Fate as is life.

Having the possibility -FATE- of all 3 outcomes is a simple way to simulate the complicated data of the staff and the commander's adjustment to new command.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/15/2016 3:15:40 PM >

_____________________________

"A word was said - a mare is standing by the fence."

(in reply to mktours)

Post #: 34

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/15/2016 2:08:47 PM

SigUp

Posts: 1062
Joined: 11/29/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

I guess the developing team of Wite might not agree on your comment that the initial rating of leaders are 'arbitrary', you really take their pride away. I think the data are quite correct and I believe they are results of hard working of the developing team.

So you believe Model's rating should be inf 8? I hope the Wite team could notice your feedback and could have a good discussion with you. I believe that the team are welcoming feedback from players, maybe they are just lacking of time.

You are still not getting it. It's simply not possible to measure intangibles like the ability to command and control accurately via a limited number of stats. Of course you have to quantify for a game, and you do research to reach an acceptable level of accuracy. However, that does not mean the ratings are absolute and just because Model is now infantry 8 instead of 9 he is not Model anymore, which is the case you are incorrectly trying to make.

And for the record, I never said Model *should* be 8 instead of 9, read my post carefully before replying. I was making an example.

(in reply to mktours)

Post #: 35

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/15/2016 2:41:46 PM

mktours

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Its OK , you made a good point.

Its good to express ideas and opinions that are opposite - It sharpens the sword.

The game is lottery or Fate as is life.

Having the possibility -FATE- of all 3 outcomes is a simple way to simulate the complicated data of the staff and the commander's adjustment to new command.

You made a good point too.
History is indeed full of random events. I got your point.

(in reply to KWG)

Post #: 36

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/15/2016 2:53:05 PM

mktours

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

I guess the developing team of Wite might not agree on your comment that the initial rating of leaders are 'arbitrary', you really take their pride away. I think the data are quite correct and I believe they are results of hard working of the developing team.

So you believe Model's rating should be inf 8? I hope the Wite team could notice your feedback and could have a good discussion with you. I believe that the team are welcoming feedback from players, maybe they are just lacking of time.

You are still not getting it. It's simply not possible to measure intangibles like the ability to command and control accurately via a limited number of stats. Of course you have to quantify for a game, and you do research to reach an acceptable level of accuracy. However, that does not mean the ratings are absolute and just because Model is now infantry 8 instead of 9 he is not Model anymore, which is the case you are incorrectly trying to make.

And for the record, I never said Model *should* be 8 instead of 9, read my post carefully before replying. I was making an example.

So you mean a infantry 8 or infantry 9 makes not difference to you? If you are right, then tell me why the team didn't put Model's initial rating at 8? I think they have good reasons to put it at 9. But you said that 8 or 9 doesn't matter? I don't think the team holds the same opinion with you.

(in reply to SigUp)

Post #: 37

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/15/2016 4:41:29 PM

HMSWarspite

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Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline

As ever, both sides are right. The meaning of an 8 or a 9 could be debated all year and not be resolved. However I think you will find the relative performance of the leaders has been very heavily thought through and debated. Should everyone be +1 or -1? Who knows?

_____________________________

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(in reply to mktours)

Post #: 38

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/15/2016 11:10:24 PM

mktours

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

I think you will find the relative performance of the leaders has been very heavily thought through and debated.

Agree. I think the developing team got the relative performance of the leaders well and the game data are quite correct.
They are results of hard working, like you said.
In Model's case, he got infantry 9 because he is the best, a very simple fact.

(in reply to HMSWarspite)

Post #: 39

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/16/2016 1:15:33 PM

IvanShuski

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Joined: 4/9/2012
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I'm sure this thread would have been a lot more constructive if it's main point had been phrased as something like "automatically promoted leaders shouldn't loss stats as it was not the player's choice to promote them", or "manually-promoted leaders should be able to recover their stats over time", rather than "my favorite WWII commander has lost perfection, OMG that can't be fair".

(in reply to mktours)

Post #: 40

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/16/2016 2:17:18 PM

mktours

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IvanShuski

I'm sure this thread would have been a lot more constructive if it's main point had been phrased as something like "automatically promoted leaders shouldn't loss stats as it was not the player's choice to promote them", or "manually-promoted leaders should be able to recover their stats over time", rather than "my favorite WWII commander has lost perfection, OMG that can't be fair".

So you fail to see the good discussions in this thread? There are quite many good comments in this thread. For example, the 23 post by Sillyflower. Although I have different opinion with him, I appreciate the way he explains his ideas.
I use Model as an example simply because his name is the most simple. I am not a native english speaker and feel difficult to remember the names of Gernerals in English.

(in reply to IvanShuski)

Post #: 41

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/16/2016 7:41:26 PM

charlie0311

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Joined: 12/20/2013
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Hi guys,

If you don't like the "diminished" leaders, you can use PBEM and reload the turn if you get a leader stat change you don't like.

(in reply to mktours)

Post #: 42

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/16/2016 8:43:56 PM

sillyflower

Posts: 3509
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

So you fail to see the good discussions in this thread? There are quite many good comments in this thread. For example, the 23 post by Sillyflower. Although I have different opinion with him, I appreciate the way he explains his ideas.
I use Model as an example simply because his name is the most simple. I am not a native english speaker and feel difficult to remember the names of Gernerals in English.

Thank you MK, but I don't think that I explained my thoughts well enough if you think we have very different views. Unless, of course, I have misunderstood you.

The ability to do ta task is a combination of knowledge/experience and the right sort of intelligence/talent. The importance of each of those 2 elements to the performance of task A by person X may well be different that for X doing task B, or Y doing task A. Indeed, the relative importance of the 2 factors in how well X does task A may also change over time. At least, these 2 factors are the ones that are relevant to this particular debate about ability ratings. IRL there are many others such as motivation, and probably that is 1 of the factors that plays a part in the morale rating. This difference is because is not an 'ability' or 'skill' but a state of mind and the extent to which X conveys that to others: for good or bad.

To take Model, my understanding of your posts is that what you do reaaly not agree with is not the chance of a point drop on promotion to 8, but the fact that he can't get back up to a 9. If so, then we do not disagree

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(in reply to mktours)

Post #: 43

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/17/2016 11:03:56 AM

mktours

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

Hi guys,

If you don't like the "diminished" leaders, you can use PBEM and reload the turn if you get a leader stat change you don't like.

That is certainly an option. But doing reload generates cost of time, so it is not free. Also in PBEM game, it requires mutual consent by the two players to permit the reload.

(in reply to charlie0311)

Post #: 44

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/17/2016 11:10:05 AM

mktours

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
The ability to do ta task is a combination of knowledge/experience and the right sort of intelligence/talent. The importance of each of those 2 elements to the performance of task A by person X may well be different that for X doing task B, or Y doing task A. Indeed, the relative importance of the 2 factors in how well X does task A may also change over time. At least, these 2 factors are the ones that are relevant to this particular debate about ability ratings. IRL there are many others such as motivation, and probably that is 1 of the factors that plays a part in the morale rating. This difference is because is not an 'ability' or 'skill' but a state of mind and the extent to which X conveys that to others: for good or bad.

I see what you mean. I agree that one�s ability, as well as one�s performance, is dynamic, rather than static. It would be nice if the game could perfectly simulate each leader as good as what he really is, but that is impossible at present. The rating of leader in this game, is therefore a over-simplified version, in which I believe many details of what your mentioned in your comment has been left out. Regardless of the ups and downs of Model�s career, when one answering a simple question: �Is Model a better general than Weiss?� The answer is easy, Model is a super-star in WW2, Weiss is not. So it doesn�t feel right when the two both having inf 8.

Suppose we erase all the names of the leaders and substitute them with X107,x108...the game remains exactly the same, it functions 100% as before. But the game experience of the players would be worse off, because it would offer less historical feeling. To handle a General named 'Model' feels different from handling a General with no name, because by doing so, one recalls all his knowledge and impressions about that particular person, what he did, what he was famous for...That is why the game data needs to be rightly reflecting the historical performance of the particular person, and when we talk about a historical person, most of the time, it is one's talent that matters. We didn't admire Model for his experience, we admire his talent, What he did in MARs and the late WAR gave him exceptional status from others, in talent.

If a inf 9 correctly match the impression and knowledge of the player about Model, then the Inf 8 is not, as to gaming, it doesn't really matter, but the game experience of the player is worse off (there is a mismatch and hence the player doesn't feel he were commanding the historical Model).

We could also examine this example: suppose the game use a dice roll to pop up a random event, in which the designer of the famous Tiger tank happened to be killed by air raid, and the Tiger end up less powerful, this event is possible and reasonable, yet it makes the game less fun, simply because it isn't match our history knowledge (what is the fun if the Tiger could not easily beat T34?). The logic is the same.

< Message edited by mktours -- 1/17/2016 12:10:58 PM >

(in reply to sillyflower)

Post #: 45

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/17/2016 11:21:28 AM

mktours

Posts: 712
Joined: 5/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
To take Model, my understanding of your posts is that what you do reaaly not agree with is not the chance of a point drop on promotion to 8, but the fact that he can't get back up to a 9. If so, then we do not disagree

I am thinking that the factors regarding a early promotion isn�t big enough to modify the rating of the leader, since the rating sysytem has been over-simplified, so I think it should ignore this detail. But I see what you and others are thinking about and acknowledge the points.
The problem is that even a improving from 8 to 9 is allowed, it is almost impossible, if I understand the game mechnism correctly, the higher the rating, the more difficult to improve it. So once Model�s rating got cut, he is done. Unless there is a mechnism to reverse the rating cut.

(in reply to sillyflower)

Post #: 46

RE: Is anybody like to see the leader rating getting cu... - 1/17/2016 2:59:33 PM

charlie0311

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Joined: 12/20/2013
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MK, the amount of time to reload a save is only a few seconds, yes, you have to trust your opponent to use PBEM. I would prefer to play with guys I can trust. There are other useful things that can be done with PBEM/reloads.

(in reply to mktours)

Post #: 47

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