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OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs.

 
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OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/11/2016 5:12:34 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Can anyone help me with the four ribbons to the right of this photo? This guy was a WWII Navy pilot who flew PBY Liberators.




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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/11/2016 5:38:07 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		I believe the last two are European African Middle Eastern Campaign ribbons.

Could the two blue ones with gold trim be Presidential Unit Citations?

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 1/11/2016 6:48:12 PM >

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/11/2016 6:08:08 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I believe the last two are European African Middle Eastern Campaign ribbons.

Could the two blue ones with gold trim be Presidential Unit Citations?


I thought that at first but he served in the Pacific. As far as I know he did no service in the ETO.


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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/11/2016 8:29:05 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I'm no expert but according to this http://militarybest.com/us-army-european--african--middle-eastern-campaign-ribbon-license-plate.html Sqz is right. I see an Italian flag, a French flag, and I don't know what.

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/11/2016 8:33:25 PM   
geofflambert


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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		According to this as well.





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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/11/2016 8:47:10 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		This on the blue/gold one. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/433753007832617484/





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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/11/2016 8:49:46 PM   
geofflambert


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Status: offline 		The light blue one resembles the MOH in color. Should have stars on it though, and no gold border.

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/12/2016 12:05:05 AM   
crsutton


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Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Ok that clears it up. Turns out that he did serve in the Middle East around the time of the Tunisian campaign but eventually ended up in the Pacific. Now what are the little stars on the two bottom ribbons for?

< Message edited by crsutton -- 1/12/2016 1:06:33 AM >

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/12/2016 1:00:55 AM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		It means he got the ribbon more than once. I doubt he wore both of the bottom ribbons at the same time. He probably wore the one with one star, then wore the one with two later.

One of my father's ribbons has multiple stars, but I don't recall which one now. He was involved in the air campaign up the north side of New Guinea, was with the first B-25 unit at Tacloben after Leyte, then was involved in a project flying B-29s out of Saipan early in that campaign, then ended up on Attu in the summer of 1945. He was with the 1st Motion Picture unit and they were sent into the field in late 43 to try and get footage for an USAAF version of the Fighting Lady. He said they never got anything that could be put into a movie like that. He pointed out that on a carrier the action comes to you, but with ground based aircraft, especially later in the war, you went to the action.

Bill

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/12/2016 2:30:20 AM   
rogueusmc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Can anyone help me with the four ribbons to the right of this photo? This guy was a WWII Navy pilot who flew PBY Liberators.




The ribbons are duplicates of each other for different purposes. If you will notice one of each ribbon is slightly larger than the other one. The smaller of the ribbons were worn on a ribbon rack when just the ribbons on the left breast are worn. When in class 'A' service or dress uniform, Unit awards are worn on the right breast and are larger than the ones in the personal awards worn on the left breast. If the unit awards are worn, the corresponding ribbon on the left breast are removed.

Semper fi,
Lee

PS...the lower one with only one star is missing a star. If it was a single star, it would have been centered...

< Message edited by rogueusmc -- 1/12/2016 3:50:04 AM >

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/12/2016 10:42:40 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Here's that light blue one





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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/12/2016 6:54:31 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Incidentally, here's the PTO ribbon. Did he not have one?




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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/12/2016 7:59:46 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Incidentally, here's the PTO ribbon. Did he not have one?






He should, because that is where he flew the PBY Liberator. His daughter found those medals on a shelf in her basement. I have asked her if she can dig up his squadron. I can then find out where they were assigned.

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/12/2016 9:40:54 PM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		Very cool. Get them framed...


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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/12/2016 10:28:51 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		She has an interesting family. Her grandfather on her mother's side was Dutch Bergman. He was once coach of the Washington Redskins and instrumental in getting RFK Stadium built in the 1960s. If you ever go to a Redskins game you will see his name on the stadium's wall of fame. More interesting to me is that he flew a two seater Spad in WWII. and his elderly daughter (her mother) has a couple of photo albums of his from that era. Some amazing photos that I believe have never been seen by anyone but family. I am really pushing her to allow me to do some scans. I want to send some to the Air and Space Museum and perhaps the Air Force Museum.

He played football at Notre Dame under Rockne and was both the Gipper's backfield running mate and room mate. He also coached Catholic University during it power years and still holds the record for the most wins there.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 1/12/2016 11:38:18 PM >

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/12/2016 11:41:28 PM   
GI Jive


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quote:

Now what are the little stars on the two bottom ribbons for?


The little stars are campaign service stars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European-African-Middle_Eastern_Campaign_Medal#cite_note-European-African-Middle_Eastern_Campaign_Medal-2 . Each star represents a "campaign" in the theater that corresponds to the ribbon. Service members would have had only one ribbon for each theater in which they served. The stars indicate how many campaigns he participated in in that theater. "Oak leaf clusters" are used in the manner described by wdolson. That is, on ribbons awarded for individual merit, multiple awards of the same type are designated by oak leaf clusters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_leaf_cluster

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/13/2016 12:58:26 AM   
TSCofield

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 5/12/2001
From: Ft. Lewis Washington
Status: offline 		The two top ribbons are Presidential Unit Citation awards. The top is the 'older' version, the second is an updated version for 'modern' uniforms from the Vietnam era until now. I suspect it was a replacement.

The Presidential Unit Citation would have been worn above the name tag and not with the other, individual ribbons. A Presidential Unit Citation is an award for a unit, not for an individual. People that were part of a unit during the period that the award was issued have the right to wear the award perminantly but people assigned to the unit after the award is given only wear it while part of the unit.

The other was the Middle Eastern Medal which others have described. I'm sure he had a few others as well.

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/13/2016 3:40:41 AM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

She has an interesting family. Her grandfather on her mother's side was Dutch Bergman. He was once coach of the Washington Redskins and instrumental in getting RFK Stadium built in the 1960s. If you ever go to a Redskins game you will see his name on the stadium's wall of fame. More interesting to me is that he flew a two seater Spad in WWII. and his elderly daughter (her mother) has a couple of photo albums of his from that era. Some amazing photos that I believe have never been seen by anyone but family. I am really pushing her to allow me to do some scans. I want to send some to the Air and Space Museum and perhaps the Air Force Museum.

He played football at Notre Dame under Rockne and was both the Gipper's backfield running mate and room mate. He also coached Catholic University during it power years and still holds the record for the most wins there.


I'm familiar with the slang term for the Skyraider which was "Spad" and there was the WW I Spad, but I'm not familiar with anything flying in WW II called a Spad. Is that a typo or something I'm not familiar with?

Bill

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/13/2016 2:45:19 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

She has an interesting family. Her grandfather on her mother's side was Dutch Bergman. He was once coach of the Washington Redskins and instrumental in getting RFK Stadium built in the 1960s. If you ever go to a Redskins game you will see his name on the stadium's wall of fame. More interesting to me is that he flew a two seater Spad in WWII. and his elderly daughter (her mother) has a couple of photo albums of his from that era. Some amazing photos that I believe have never been seen by anyone but family. I am really pushing her to allow me to do some scans. I want to send some to the Air and Space Museum and perhaps the Air Force Museum.

He played football at Notre Dame under Rockne and was both the Gipper's backfield running mate and room mate. He also coached Catholic University during it power years and still holds the record for the most wins there.


I'm familiar with the slang term for the Skyraider which was "Spad" and there was the WW I Spad, but I'm not familiar with anything flying in WW II called a Spad. Is that a typo or something I'm not familiar with?

Bill

Sorry Bill, that was a mistype. My friends maternal grandfater, Dutch Bergman. played for Notre Dame and left school during WWI. He served 17 months in Europe in the army air corp and then returned to Notre Dame post war to finish his schooling. See is bio here. http://www.cuacardinals.com/sports/fball/2012-13/releases/dutch_berman_feature_story.

My friend,s dad who passed away a few years ago was the pilot who flew the PBY Liberator in WWII, and those are his ribbons that I posted above. However it is sort of a mystery to me because I only know of his service in the Pacific, not in the ETO. And those do seem to be campaign ribbons from the Med campaign. Trying to follow up and will post here when I find out more.



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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/19/2016 2:44:55 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		This is the owner of the ribbons Bob Monahan in the cockpit of his Ventura patrol bomber. The squadron flew Venturas early on and transited to PBY Liberators in the last year of the war.




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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/20/2016 2:33:49 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I think his unit was probably VPB-123 and his crew was #13

http://www.vpnavy.com/vp123_crews.html

On 5/31/45 and 6/3/45 it looks like he claimed 1/2 kill each day. The first a Tojo and the second a Pete. It looks like both were off the southern tip of South Korea over the strait between Japan and Korea.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/257874-Kill-calims-by-airforce-and-theatre-Forums

Bill

< Message edited by wdolson -- 1/20/2016 3:39:31 AM >

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/20/2016 1:45:26 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		If you ever see stars on a theater ribbon, as noted above, that represents individual campaigns.
If you ever see an "arrowhead" on it, that is an "invasion".
My dad had a European campaign ribbon with 4 stars and an arrowhead for Omaha Beach D Day landing.
Some Marines may have had as many as 4 "arrowheads" for that war, and the ability to earn another at the Inchon landings in Korea, (on a Korean ribbon).

That "unit citation" ribbon was given to all members of a particular unit, so even newguys coming into theater could wear it, even though not part of the unit when it was earned.
This is portrayed in one scene of Band Of Brothers.

There was also a red in color unit citation which was exactly like that blue bar, but was not divisional, and might be awarded to a single regiment. It would be worn right next to the blue device, (which is the correct terminology for the decoration.)

< Message edited by m10bob -- 1/20/2016 2:50:44 PM >

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RE: OT-Little help with WWII ribbon IDs. - 1/20/2016 8:34:44 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I think his unit was probably VPB-123 and his crew was #13

http://www.vpnavy.com/vp123_crews.html

On 5/31/45 and 6/3/45 it looks like he claimed 1/2 kill each day. The first a Tojo and the second a Pete. It looks like both were off the southern tip of South Korea over the strait between Japan and Korea.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/257874-Kill-calims-by-airforce-and-theatre-Forums

Bill



Thanks Bill,

She will be happy to see this. The squadron was originally No.124 but re designated 123 for some reason. The real issue is that I now doubt he was in the Med. So where did those ribbons come from? Did they have those ribbons in WWI? Because I believe that his father in law's unit was briefly stationed in the med either towards the end of the war or just after. Just a stab because I don't think that stuff is that old.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 1/20/2016 9:37:26 PM >

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