Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp



Sorry, but that's just a terrible idea. These players were never in it for the long haul anyway. They are the group of German players to approach the game with an attitude "Leningrad-Moscow-Rostov in 1941 or quit". They can't deal with adversity and can't improvise and want everything to go according to plan. You can change whatever you want, once they see that they can't go on a German world conquest they will quit on you. The game goes long enough to correct such small mistakes and still come out with a draw. You are just giving them free excuses by saying they can't do anything about it, since it is not true at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

Very thoughtful initial post, good questions. Someone as sharp as you NagyGL will have no trouble with any of these games.

...

But your summary post is accurate and I think you might want to go with WitW for a first try.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

To respond to the OP. My favorite game is WITP, most played game the past year has been WITE (because of action per turn and combatants) but if I had to recommend a game out of the three it would be WITW as it is closer mechanically to what you will see in WITE 2.0

quote:

ORIGINAL: NagyGL
As WITE 2.0 is coming it makes sense for me to buy into WITW now and maybe WITE 2.0 later, as I have no specific and strong preference for the Eastern front.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought
Let's revist those points then. What was mentioned as specific example was the treatment of the native population, problem here is, how far do you allow people to go without drifting into absolute fantasy? The mistreatment of the population as Untermenschen was core nazi policy.

Correct; however, not necessarily Wermacht policy. DC:B--another theatre wide operational game--handles this in this way. With relationships. As overall commander you can make choices about how much you are going to go along with the SS. If you refuse to cooperate, your relationship with Hitler, Himmler, and others tanks.

If it gets bad enough, you will be replaced. Even if it's just bad, this will harm your ability to ask for oil allocations and transfer of units between AG. It will also effect how much influence you have with Hitler regarding the goals he sets (and if you do not try to accomplish these you're sacked).

Or you could take the middle ground and just lodge a protest and let it slide.

On the converse side, what you get for protecting the civilian population as best you can is less partisans. And this doesn't mean that as a whole that nazi policy is actually ignored, it just abstracts that on a day to day basis, the Wermacht is treating the civilians better--maybe you stop the practice of revenge killing in a town somewhere--you do enough to ensure that fewer people see resistance as the only alternative.

In DC:B treating civilians as well as you can does not eliminate partisans. It just reduces their strength.

And this is already in a game, which falls into the same family as WiTE!. WiTE is still the better game, but DC:Bs inclusion of the "politics" of theater command is the most innovative thing this genre has seen in years. I reccomend you play it before you say it just cannot be done..

PS. On this point it was also a matter of policy that the military did not enjoy operational freedom, yet in WiTE you can do whatever you want, including moving whole Panzer Groups between Army Group. This is totally "unrealistic" too.

quote:

You can't just come here and say, what if they had treated them better. Because if you did you would be changing the very nature of the nazi regime. Change its very nature and you don't have a war in the first place.

No, but I see no problem (as stated above) with the commanding general lodging a protest, or even saying, "we are not going to integrate your death squads in any way to the army" then living with the potential consequences.

quote:

As for production, in WitP the power gap between the US and Japan is far bigger than the one between Germany and the Soviet Union. The production there allows the Japanese side to be more creative in how to script its demise. Meanwhile on the Eastern Front a central advantage of the Soviet side was their more efficient production compared to the German side. They were able to churn out far more units with their invested resources than the Germans. Allow the Germans to build and optimise as they desire and you are destroying the historical balance in a way that far exceeds what's being done in WitP. You can't come here and compare apples to oranges.

Sure; however, I think this is really superficial in as much as we (or at least I) am not saying "give players total control." You cannot have Germans churning out T-34s for instance, or "deciding" to put the reich on a total war footing in 1941. Choosing the "more pz iv's" option will not negate the Soviet advantage in any real way--AND you could link it to a decision/relationship system like DC:B where the worse your relationship with high command, the less likely it is your "reccomendations" about production will be given any merit.

What's more it such a system, broadly, would help remove the current fantasy aspects of this game. For instance, I will move whole panzer groups if I want, I will pursue any objective I want, I will just abandon major cities, I will play like there was never any such thing as "no step back" orders for either side.

In essence, ahistorical play would still be possible; however, like in real life, if Stalin says "defend Kiev to the last drop of blood," and the player ignores this, he might save his men and material, but there will be consequences[/I] that the player will have to live with.

< Message edited by Revthought -- 2/5/2016 4:01:21 PM >

(in reply to SigUp)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rrbill


Main issue IMHO is discrepancy between Soviet/Nazi unit formation opportunities/arrival schedules. Seems all +Soviet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

And this is already in a game, which falls into the same family as WiTE!. WiTE is still the better game, but DC:Bs inclusion of the "politics" of theater command is the most innovative thing this genre has seen in years. I reccomend you play it before you say it just cannot be done..

quote:

Sure; however, I think this is really superficial in as much as we (or at least I) am not saying "give players total control." You cannot have Germans churning out T-34s for instance, or "deciding" to put the reich on a total war footing in 1941. Choosing the "more pz iv's" option will not negate the Soviet advantage in any real way

quote:


Quote me on saying that a system can't be done. Anyway, again, different games, different systems. Decisive Campaigns was built from ground-up including this card system, this relationship system etc. is just an extension of this. The engine of WitE and WitW don't contain this, so how are you going to implement that? Not to mention that DC works on a higher abstraction scale. You can't just come here and say, this game is doing that so why can't we have the same. It doesn't work this way. The WitE/WitW and the DC families work off different design philosophies.

quote:

And what's the gameplay effect then? So basically none. The production system in WitP has an effect on the game because you can tinker with a lot of things, which planes you build, which ones you research, how much you build, which ships to prioritise etc etc. And as I said, do the same degree of freedom for WitE and you knock the power balance around like nothing. With your suggestion the impact on gameplay is minimal, so why waste valuable design and testing time on on a gimmick like this? Time better spent on improving combat system, logistics, air system etc etc. From a equipment-to-unit perspective it would be a far more meaningful change to implement a system of manual direction of equipment change for land equipment. Like an option to prioritise modern equipment to go to certain units/regions, or simply an option to manually swap equipment like AFVs if certain conditions are met.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Revthought

Having worked in the video game industry and made video games, I disagree with you. Plus, your wrong. It's built on the DC engine, for which the first two titles contained nothing of the sort. And I'm not suggesting an exact copy of DC:B with card play.

quote:

A lot of the mechanics are there already, or present in other GG titles.

quote:

By the way, the fantasy argument is the biggest hypocritical argument you can make. While I love WiTE you don't get more fantasy than complete and total operational freedom. Moving units between army groups for the Germans and letting them focus on whatever objective they want, particularly in 1941 is a joke when compared to reality. As is letting the Soviet player endlessly retreat without putting up a fight for population centers--Stalin would have more than just removed me from command if I were a Soviet commander in WW2 and did the things I do in game

quote:

Of course there is an effect. That's what you balance the game around, trade offs for decisions. Decisions don't make or break anything, just like in WiTP.

quote:

PS. The German player, unless he wins, in 1941or maybe 42 is playing for a win by keeping the Russians out of Berlin for as long as possible. That's no different than the Japanese players position in WiTP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

If you decide for WITW, I might suggest you to buy also Operation Torch.

quote:

ORIGINAL: solops

For time and playability, try From Eagle Day To Bombing the Reich. It will not get you your naval fix, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkhelix

How did you get on with WITW?
Was it how you expected? was it harder/ easier?
How much have you played it since you had it?
How long do the 'shorter' scenarios take?
Do you have to wait 'long' between go's? (more than a few minutes)

Thanks

quote:

How did you get on with WITW?

quote:

Was it how you expected? was it harder/ easier?

quote:

How much have you played it since you had it?

quote:

How long do the 'shorter' scenarios take?

quote:

Do you have to wait 'long' between go's? (more than a few minutes)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

We are not working on expanding WitW to cover France 1940. We are working on WitE2.0.

I think we would all like a grand european campaign from 1940 - 45 but the challenges to deliver it are considerable so don't hold your breath.