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RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/17/2016 4:54:10 PM

morvael

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This is protecting from, preparing for AP crunch. We removed this problem.

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Post #: 31

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/17/2016 7:31:55 PM

loki100

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I'm worried about the new air rules. Its now too easy for the side with air superiority to inflict really heavy losses.

I like that you are no longer having to plan your ground attack missions as the first thing you do and so on but you can do far too much. With the sort of tactical bomber force that many Soviet players will have mid/late game the Germans are going to be wiped out.

For the moment, I've suggested to my opponent a revised version of the old standard house rule. No more than 2 attacks/turn/hex. This still allows a lot of attacks as you can really push your airforce to the limit but I think the 3 attacks coded into the patch are too much.

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Post #: 32

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/17/2016 7:34:55 PM

morvael

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I need you to gather data before tweaks are made. How many aircraft are lost on such missions? Is there fighter cover or only AA?

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Post #: 33

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/17/2016 8:17:23 PM

chaos45

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Basically in my game Pelton has no airforce at the frontline doing anything so I have almost 9k planes, with fully 2/3rds or more being tactical bombers right now so that means a lot of bombing esp since most of my airbases are close to the frontline at this point. Once I get the next turn will do some tracking. Means paperwork as I will have to do it at the end of the turn.

As I need to bomb his units at different phases of operations now not just the start lol.

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Post #: 34

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/17/2016 8:35:35 PM

Michael T

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quote:

Yes, so now go, fight and defend forward to the last man, like a proper Soviet general should

Love this

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Post #: 35

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/17/2016 9:43:10 PM

Bob12

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I think Pelton might now regret disbanding the luftwaffe for manpower. On another note I really like what I've seen in my 10mins of testing of the counterattack/fighting withdrawl stuff that's been added in. Might've finally fixed the loss ratio/retreat loss problem.

< Message edited by Bob12 -- 2/17/2016 10:44:25 PM >

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Post #: 36

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/17/2016 10:17:48 PM

Erik Rutins

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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311
Somebody with "say" should get the "P" suspension lifted. He can sort this out.

His suspension was for good reason - talent with the game in no way puts someone above the rules. Assuming he can follow the rules, he'll be back soon enough.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 37

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/17/2016 10:57:09 PM

charlie0311

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OK Eric, good call.

I was thinking, me, that Loki's cat could pull it off.

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Post #: 38

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 6:37:55 AM

Chubb

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morvael you have been recommended for Hero of the Soviet Union for that inspirational comment.

Feature 40 is destined to be our Order 227 and will certainly change the play. It will be interesting to judge the effect on soviet infantry replacements later in the game and whether manpower will become an issue?

I'm still hanging out for two things on my wish list. Formation of mountain corps and reforming tank XXX to mech XXX

Za Stalina, Za Rodinu

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Post #: 39

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 8:13:48 AM

sillyflower

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Whilst I'm in awe of the amount of work that Morvael an Denniss are doing (+ credit to 2by3 and Matrix for supporting the game so strongly) I'm concerned that these changes won't have been fully tested.

Feature 40 makes me very glad i wasn't planning to play German again. As long as I buy 1 cav xx in November or earlier (I will need to run down my arms points every turn I expect have significant unit losses in the next german turn so all my units come back as freebies), I will have 19 cav xxx to start my blizzard O.

With the ability to rail out 25% more factories each turn (20% cost reduction means 10 for the price of 8) I will have the arms points to rebuild the lost ones. Saving more of the economy will mean that the Russians will have even bigger steamrollers. Arms and manpower are in abundance from some point in '42 (depending on the game) and the only limiting factors were APs and trucks. The AP crunch has gone, and trucks just require Soviets to be careful about the number of tank and mech xxx they have and the size/composition of their air force.

With all respect to Morvael rule 40 won't hurt Russians who store APs for corps conversion because at that stage they are unlikely to be losing significant numbers of units, if any.

I doubt many games under .07 have got past the blizzard to see how that change has reduced German truck levels for their '42 O. However, taking out 75K is likely to make life very difficult especially as the russians will be stronger. I could not help noticing that Pelton only had 69K trucks in the pool in June '45 when playing Smokindave............

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Post #: 40

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 10:54:06 AM

Manstein63

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I agree that it could be a problem. but an easy fix would be to increase the AP costs for creating Cavalry Corps they would still be able to get the divisions for free but the rate of conversion to cavalry corps would slow, also you couldn't hoard AP's as they would be swallowed up by returning unit replacement costs it could also be applied to tank & mech corps before 43, but that is a separate issue altogether.
Manstein63

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Post #: 41

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 11:04:13 AM

morvael

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Losing troops is a bad idea anyway, they will suck replacements (and cavalry costs a lot of ARM), have low morale, and low experience. It will take a lot of time and resources to return them to previous strength. At some point you may decide you don't want to respawn your destroyed corps again and again, so you will disband them while they are still at 20% MAX TOE. This is equivalent to a decision that you don't want to rebuild them, as close as is possible in WitE without adding code to track destroyed units and allow players to rebuild any by selecting them from a list. Free rebuilds are there to slow down snowballing defeats, but I don't think you will be so much better with sixty morale 30, experience 20 cavalry divisions in the Urals, than with those units in good shape at the front.

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Post #: 42

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 11:44:59 AM

Wuffer

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First of all: THX!!
Great support

@ Silly
That might be true, and indeed were my first thoughts, too.
OTOH, rules no. 5 and 10 may suggest a much stronger German attack during the first summer, especially together with the new air system.
Balancing an asymmetric system like this one will need a lot of volunteers time of course... :-) btw, it takes at least three major releases until WITP AE was finished.

Typing on a phone, sry for misspellings.

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Post #: 43

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 12:27:25 PM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Losing troops is a bad idea anyway, they will suck replacements (and cavalry costs a lot of ARM), have low morale, and low experience. It will take a lot of time and resources to return them to previous strength. At some point you may decide you don't want to respawn your destroyed corps again and again, so you will disband them while they are still at 20% MAX TOE. This is equivalent to a decision that you don't want to rebuild them, as close as is possible in WitE without adding code to track destroyed units and allow players to rebuild any by selecting them from a list. Free rebuilds are there to slow down snowballing defeats, but I don't think you will be so much better with sixty morale 30, experience 20 cavalry divisions in the Urals, than with those units in good shape at the front.

Obviously better not to be killed than to be resurrected for all the reasons you give. However, it shifts the balance enormously to get freebies back, coupled with the easier factory evac, and does nothing for those many Germans who don't do so well in the first summer who seem to be in the majority these days.

No one will have 60 rubbish cav xx at the beginning of winter. Many will be of high quality, and most of the resurrected units will have been back on the map for many turns so will have max morale and high experience.

NB I know you are just trying really hard to get it right, and only time will tell if my concerns are justified. I'm also aware that what is needed to balance a game between 2 newbies on the one hand, and 2 experts on the other hand, may be very different. Germans are harder to play well.

I think I would even take on Michael T's Germans again now - says me knowing he's just said he's going to wait for WITE 2

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 2/19/2016 1:34:04 PM >

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Post #: 44

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 12:36:24 PM

morvael

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Things like these can only be discovered after we all play the game multiple times. For this it has to be made public beta. With 4-5 people involved in the patch development process, we just check whether the game works and is stable. We have a feeling how the balance shifts with each changes, using common sense and experience, but no actual proofs. Getting these would take years and by that time game would be forgotten. There were a lot of changes that were good for Germans (counterattack/fighting withdrawal for example), and some are good for Soviets.

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Post #: 45

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 12:56:02 PM

Manstein63

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If I read the patch notes correctly the free rebuilds only come into effect from November 41, which means that any units destroyed before then will be subject to the original ruling (where cavalry divisions & airborne brigades were not rebuilt) & infantry / tank units could take significantly longer to reappear. (one day I really must read the rules to this game)

Manstein

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Post #: 46

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 1:03:29 PM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

If I read the patch notes correctly the free rebuilds only come into effect from November 41, which means that any units destroyed before then will be subject to the original ruling (where cavalry divisions & airborne brigades were not rebuilt) & infantry / tank units could take significantly longer to reappear. (one day I really must read the rules to this game)
Manstein

RD/MD/TD are rebuilt for free using their original rules 6/41-10/41.
RD/MD/TD are rebuilt using the new rules 11/41+.
All other units are rebuilt using the new rules 6/41+.

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Post #: 47

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 1:22:40 PM

Manstein63

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Morvael, thanks for the clarification, So now cavalry divisions airborne brigades & AT brigades will be rebuilt if they get destroyed and they will be only cost AP's if the Soviet player has any remaining in his turn. I assume the Security Regiments are not subjected to this and do not return and still disband
Manstein63

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Post #: 48

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 1:27:47 PM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
Obviously better not to be killed than to be resurrected for all the reasons you give. However, it shifts the balance enormously to get freebies back, coupled with the easier factory evac, and does nothing for those many Germans who don't do so well in the first summer who seem to be in the majority these days.

We'll see. Other changes favour Germans, I think those new counterattack/fighting withdrawal rules are big boon for them. Some changes in turn help the Soviets. It keeps the game fresh to have discover new meta with every patch

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
NB I know you are just trying really hard to get it right, and only time will tell if my concerns are justified. I'm also aware that what is needed to balance a game between 2 newbies on the one hand, and 2 experts on the other hand, may be very different. Germans are harder to play well.

Yes, we use common sense, own experience and sometimes gamer's 6th sense, but there is no way to test game of this scope with just 4-5 people involved part-time (and that part is very small) in the project. Also, balance is subjective. For some balance mean steamrolling Soviets to Urals without stopping. For me balance is when game ends in 1945 with German defeat, because I see no way they could have won against USSR supplied by UK and USA, and having a second front (and third, and fourth...). So for me taking Leningrad or Moscow should be an extremely rare event. Winning an auto-victory even rarer. On the other hand I don't want German army to crumble to dust in late 1943, they need to stay strong enough to be able to counterattack with mobile units for a long time. I would like to see the tactics of "retreat 2 hexes per turn along the front" gone. Instead I want to see units fighting desperately for every hex between Moscow and Berlin, not giving up unless encircled. On small scale I want to allow breaking any hex with enough troops brought in (it means you are weaker somewhere else), in order not to witness a repeat of WW1 and to keep situation fluid (though it's problematic with just 3 units per hex allowed, with strength varying between 1500 and 35000 men - limit should be men based not counter based). Remember you can be twice as strong in attack than in defense (excluding defensive modifiers from terrain and fort), so you actually have more CV when attacking. Which means turtling and minimising losses is not acceptable. Constantly shifting units to hit a weak spot and countering these thrusts with your own should be the goal. We'll see how situation evolves. If exploits will be found they will be removed. If there will be some rule giving great imbalance it will be tweaked. Smaller imbalances will probably stay, because they depend on personal preference, and are hard to prove as being actually big issues.

(in reply to sillyflower)

Post #: 49

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 2:28:58 PM

mktours

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Yes, we use common sense, own experience and sometimes gamer's 6th sense, but there is no way to test game of this scope with just 4-5 people involved part-time (and that part is very small) in the project.

That is why I have stopped playing the game and just waiting for 2.0. If Wite is produced by "just 4-5 people involved part-time (and that part is very small) in the project." it won't succeed.
I think that the patch team is doing too much changes, which is beyond its capacity to monitor. It is like buying a car, one don't want his car to be modified heavily every 2-3 months, he would prefer it functioning stably. So I think that it might be better for the patch team just focus on the bug shooting and don't modify the game too much all the time simply because 4-5 amateurs try to Mod their own game and force all players to accept the 100-200 changes every 2-3 months.
A better solution might be separating the patching, which only focusing on real bug shooting, from Modding, which Morvael could freely test his own thoughts.

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Post #: 50

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 2:40:32 PM

morvael

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You can always return to 1.07.10 which was last patch made fully by the original team, that now makes WitE 2.0. The whole 1.08 series can be considered a variant/mod of WitE 1.0, that luckily most people like more than dislike.

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Post #: 51

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 2:56:02 PM

mktours

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

You can always return to 1.07.10 which was last patch made fully by the original team, that now makes WitE 2.0. The whole 1.08 series can be considered a variant/mod of WitE 1.0, that luckily most people like more than dislike.

This thread is considered opened by the Wite developer, so I comment as a consumer. No offense to you and your work.
I just think that it is not a sound policy to do product support in this way, that is, of course, just personal opinion or preference.
The 1.08 has indeed become your game, it is no longer the original Wite. I won't comment on how many people like it or dislike it, that is not my business, maybe some people just walk away without saying anything. I like the original game and would like 2.0 to be better, that is why I gave my feed back to the developer.
My comment wasn't against you.

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Post #: 52

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/19/2016 5:22:02 PM

No idea

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Morvael, how can you be twice as stron attacking than defending? I havent read anything about that in the patch notes, and my units are 90% times stronger defending than attacking (cv values)

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Post #: 53

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/20/2016 10:37:52 AM

sillyflower

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Brand new cav xx

Bought last turn ie 22. All 3 have morale of 50, and the other 2 experience levels in the mid 30s. Thet are the only 3 divs I have bough in this game so I don't know how typical the numbers are. I still have over 100K arms points in the kitty and it would have made it even harder for my opponent if the units the 6 cav xx etc he has killed came back in anything like this sort of condition within 2-4 turns. I should add that this is not a game with low Russian losses - 2.66M to date as I've traded losses to slow the Nazis down. These 3 units are a long way from the morale 30 and experience of 20 which Morvael suggested can be expected. Some of my shell new units start with experience levels in the 20s (and a very few less than 20) but most seem to be in the 30s. Few start with morale less than 40.

Seems to me that there should be caps on starting morale and experience for new and reconstituted units + also to stop them being at full strength so quickly.

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< Message edited by sillyflower -- 2/20/2016 1:56:42 PM >

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Post #: 54

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/20/2016 11:24:13 AM

JTP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

You can always return to 1.07.10 which was last patch made fully by the original team, that now makes WitE 2.0. The whole 1.08 series can be considered a variant/mod of WitE 1.0, that luckily most people like more than dislike.

Where would this patch be available (1.07.10) ? Can't find it on the matrix site.

Thanks.

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Post #: 55

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/20/2016 4:00:15 PM

morvael

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I think 1.07.08 is installed with second expansion. Pretty close to 1.07.10, unless someone has an installer.

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Post #: 56

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/20/2016 4:02:32 PM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: No idea

Morvael, how can you be twice as stron attacking than defending? I havent read anything about that in the patch notes, and my units are 90% times stronger defending than attacking (cv values)

I'm talking about the extra x2 CV multiplier in combat that can be applied only to the attacking side (all other multipliers are symmetrical for both sides) if the unit passes leader combat roll.

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Post #: 57

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/20/2016 4:04:53 PM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
Brand new cav xx

So this is a new unit, bought empty on T22 and reached this level of preparation after a single logistics phase? So a similar situation would happen in earlier patches, because this aspect wasn't changed. But I agree it's a bit too fast, even if you have resources and fill unit to 100% TOE in one turn, it should have lower morale and experience.

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Post #: 58

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/20/2016 4:16:16 PM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours
This thread is considered opened by the Wite developer, so I comment as a consumer. No offense to you and your work.
I just think that it is not a sound policy to do product support in this way, that is, of course, just personal opinion or preference.
The 1.08 has indeed become your game, it is no longer the original Wite. I won't comment on how many people like it or dislike it, that is not my business, maybe some people just walk away without saying anything. I like the original game and would like 2.0 to be better, that is why I gave my feed back to the developer.
My comment wasn't against you.

Feel free to comment of course. I'm not taking this as a personal attack, no worry. Think of this that way: official product support for WitE ended somewhere around 1.07.10-11, as 2by3 moved on to work on WitW. So while it's true that 1.08 patches transform WitE by Gary, Joel and Pavel into WitE by morvael and Denniss, there was no chance to see more support for the game by the original team. Hence I think myoffer to play WitE 1.07.10 as the last "original" version is valid, and our patches didn't hurt original WitE from developing more, because there would be no development. So 1.08 is indeed a volunteer-made collection of bug fixes, improvements and changes. Of course changing things is a hit and miss process, but I think we score more hits than misses so far (but misses are ineviteable and they happened for the original team as well). I'm just happy our work makes some people happy, and to those unhappy I can only say that our work didn't block the game from evolving because it was already at the end of support, due to new games being under development. Soon this will be moot, since we all will move to WitE 2.0 to once again enjoy work of the original team. However some of features we have developed for WitE 1.0 are liked by the original team and may end up incorporated into WitE 2.0 (I'm not promising any), thus I hope our independent work showed what is possible to improve in some pieces of the game that were not the focus of the original team and thus our work on WitE 1.0 may have a positive impact on WitE 2.0 in this indirect way.

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Post #: 59

RE: Public Beta v1.08.08 now available - 2/20/2016 4:38:46 PM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
Brand new cav xx

So this is a new unit, bought empty on T22 and reached this level of preparation after a single logistics phase? So a similar situation would happen in earlier patches, because this aspect wasn't changed. But I agree it's a bit too fast, even if you have resources and fill unit to 100% TOE in one turn, it should have lower morale and experience.

Yes - 1 logistics phase

I understand that the process for new units hasn't changed, but the problem (from the German side) is that resurrected units coming back the same way are not the useless units that would be expected to be cannon-fodder for possibly some months. A max imum of 30 morale and 20 experience for new resurrected units might be worth considering.

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Post #: 60