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Understanding Cashflow - 2/21/2016 7:33:13 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		I've struggled with this from the start with. I find that playing with some government impossible to keep out of the red, i.e. democracy. This is my current situation and without changing governments or scrapping some ship/bases (the only option I can see) is they anything I can do? I have access to all resources except for six, including the 3 big ones.








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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/21/2016 8:41:43 AM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		I assume you just build stuff until you are into the red, which is why you are in the red? I assume the cashflow number in itself is not the mystery, it (almost) adds up to what is seen in the screen.

You look rather over-extended to me. 12 colonies, 329k colony revenue. That is less than an average 30 revenue per colony. You would not feel so over-extended if you had just 2-3 systems to cover with your 30 military ships. Or a few less, due to the tiny amounts of colony income lost.

As long as you survive, and the colonies are of good quality, I guess you will be good once they have had time to grow.

Depending on status with pirates, my cost-cutting spree would be: Around 15k saved by scrapping all but one defensive base. Up to 8k saved by scrapping all small spaceports. That should get you most of the way into the green.

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/21/2016 1:22:38 PM   
BlueTemplar


Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline 		Just in case, this might be helpful (if it isn't obsolete) :
"Economy demystified" :
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2477630&mpage=1&key=�

< Message edited by BlueTemplar -- 2/21/2016 2:24:02 PM >

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/21/2016 2:18:55 PM   
Retreat1970


Posts: 948
Joined: 11/6/2013
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline 		You have 12 colonies, but only 9B in population. To me that means you're not growing your home world properly. Your home world is your main source of income. You need to maximize growth by lowering taxes (if you do it now you'll really be in the red). If you have tech trading on, try and sell some tech so you can lower taxes.

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/21/2016 5:30:09 PM   
WCG

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 5/30/2013
Status: offline 		I'm no expert, but I might add that your private sector seems to be hurting. At least, in my games, the private sector has a higher profit margin than that (83K from 329K revenue). I typically run in the red on cashflow, since I keep taxes so low. But the private sector keeps me afloat by buying ships (mostly) and by taking vacations.

This game really seems to have a libertarian economic model. At least, it helps for me to think of it like that. It's not at all plausible, but that's how the game works. If you keep the tax rate as low as possible - zero at first, as long as you can, at least - then your colonies will grow faster and the private sector will buy more ships.

So, what do you do now? Again, I'm no expert, but the first thing I'd do is disband a lot of your ground troops. If you leave that automated, the AI will bankrupt you with an enormous standing army. Note that you're paying 39K in troop maintenance! Admittedly, you have a lot of colonies, but you just don't have enough people to support such a huge army.

If you have to, disband anything else you don't absolutely need, too, because you have to pay maintenance on all state ships and bases. If you can cut your expenses, you'll be able to lower your tax rate (I hope you're only taxing your home world right now, anyway) and that will help your population grow faster.

Of course, there are other things you can do, too. Make sure there are plenty of luxury goods around. And I always start with the cheapest station I can build - not even any weapons - so that my new colonies will get medical and entertainment centers ASAP (then refit them to a better design, afterwards).

Most likely, it will just take time until your population grows a bit more. But keep a close eye on that. Check each colony to see its growth rate and what is affecting that. More people = more money. There's no such thing as overpopulation in Distant Worlds.


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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/21/2016 11:30:52 PM   
Blabsawaw22

 

Posts: 285
Joined: 12/5/2014
Status: offline 		god.. that's sad.. how far into the game is that? ha.

Are there any rare luxury resources around you? I'm sure the computer empires have already jumped on them.. but if you see any of the 4 Extremely rare luxury resources close to your 12 colonies etc.. I think you need to put a mine down on those.. Go to war over it if you have a good chance of survival.. though I'm sure you don't..

Look at your space port income and bonus income.. Maybe it was just the time of the picture, but also only 3k resort? Show another picture later after it calculates more..

Are you not seeing freighters go into your space port from other empires?

no bonus income!? no treaties? no trade agreements huh?

< Message edited by Blabsawaw22 -- 2/22/2016 1:06:02 AM >

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/22/2016 7:36:10 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		This is the situation sometime later. As you can see the situation has improved somewhat. What did I do? Nothing is the answer except conquer two worlds with existing population, one with over 1000m Ikkuro (natural merchants) and Bifrian silk (although I was mining that already), the other was my race with 500m Ackdarian with Ucantium pearls (giving a resource bonus of +5 development). Taxing these might have helped.







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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/22/2016 7:52:15 AM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		Population is key to a good economy. Good quality colonies, with massive population (and wonders, development level, ultra-rares won't hurt either).

By waiting, you increase the population on your non-full capital (which probably is almost all your income), which improves your overall tax income. I would be surprised if the two additional colonies mattered, the capital was probably the source of the improvement.

Your population increased from 9222 to 15194M. You conquered 1500M of those. The rest is natural growth, the majority of which happens at your largest colonies (which ought to be the capital at that stage).

Pay attention to the colony screen, and the revenue and tax columns on the right.

From an old AAR of mine (many expansions ago, but that won't matter).



The low quality capital is dominant, but the good quality colony of some population is getting there.

Much later in the game, and the promising guy is dominant. High quality is key. The capital is far down the list with the low quality also affecting its maximum population. Nevermind that the non capital guy probably has some corruption lowering their revenue as well. The Pliados 3 colony should be harder hit by that than the other top guys, being farther from the capital.




< Message edited by Bingeling -- 2/22/2016 8:55:33 AM >

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/22/2016 1:43:04 PM   
WCG

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Population is key to a good economy. ...

Pay attention to the colony screen, and the revenue and tax columns on the right.

From an old AAR of mine...



I certainly agree with you about population, but I'm a bit surprised at how high your taxes are in the early game.

I've got four planets right now - admittedly, earlier than I would have normally. (I started off right up against another empire, and I needed to conquer two of them before my neighbors could get a colony ship there.) And I'm playing the humans, which probably makes a difference.

But I've got taxes set to 15% on my homeworld (zero everywhere else), and even that is higher than I usually set it (because I've expanded so rapidly).

My homeworld already has a population of more than 12 billion. Of course, that's not just a result of the tax rate, not at all. I've got a higher quality homeworld, for one thing, and again, I'm playing the humans. But I kept the tax at zero for as long as I could, and the population really grew.

Currently, I've got a huge fleet of passenger ships ferrying migrants from my neighbor's homeworld to my colonies, too. Zero taxes definitely helps with that. Admittedly, I don't know how much difference migration really makes. But my colonies are growing rapidly.

And even if I taxed them, I wouldn't get a whole lot. I'll do that if I get in a bind, but I'd prefer to cut expenses, if I can. I'm no expert, certainly, but it just seems to me as if low taxes are the key to the economic model in the game.


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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/22/2016 3:23:19 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		Never mind the taxes in those images. That was an AAR where I only controlled the military and left the rest to the AI. Which does not work too well in the diplomacy area, sadly, if it worked I think it would be great fun to let the AI do that part.

I have also usually had automated taxes in my other games, to avoid getting a head start in that area.

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/22/2016 4:01:01 PM   
WCG

 

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Joined: 5/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I have also usually had automated taxes in my other games, to avoid getting a head start in that area.


I see. That makes sense. As a 'builder' in these kinds of games, it's developing the economy that interests me the most, which is why I never leave it automated. (I need the military conflict, too, but I don't really play this as a strategy game.)

Admittedly, I usually get so far ahead of the other empires that I quit and start over before I even get to the mid-game. Heh, heh. Of course, I tend to do that in most games, so I'm not sure what difference it would make.


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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/22/2016 7:04:37 PM   
Retreat1970


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From: Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

Population is key to a good economy.


Enough said. By not managing population well early, you end up handicapping yourself later on.

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/23/2016 7:22:22 AM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		Or by managing population well early, you make the game end before the stage where it could become fun.


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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/23/2016 3:19:49 PM   
Blabsawaw22

 

Posts: 285
Joined: 12/5/2014
Status: offline 		In regards to "cashflow"

unfortunately I'm going to be honest here in that I now only play this game with 1-2 goals in mind. I rush grab the super rare luxury resources or even worse, tech trade to get money..


The "other" way of getting money by 0 taxing your homeworld and waiting ... (how long do you have to wait anyway for pop to grow? as I've never done that??) ha..


It's unfortunate that I can only resort to rushing Super Luxury or tech trading to make money as why would I wait 2 years or 1 hour of gameplay to make money!?

and you'll notice all the people here posting saying they don't have hours and hours to play a "long" game..

I do however! ha.

but still dont' want to sit and watch the screen waiting for freighters and my +6000 cash every 14 days! especially when you lose ships like it's toilet paper getting used by an elephant.. ha.. and have to rebuild them.. each costing $1300+ per ship!

I have seen resort Bases bring in a decent ammount of income.. +15,000 or more

< Message edited by Blabsawaw22 -- 2/23/2016 3:21:04 PM >

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/23/2016 4:12:56 PM   
WCG

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blabsawaw22

but still dont' want to sit and watch the screen waiting for freighters and my +6000 cash every 14 days! especially when you lose ships like it's toilet paper getting used by an elephant.. ha.. and have to rebuild them.. each costing $1300+ per ship!



Funny, but that's what I like about the game. Well, different tastes, huh? But that's why I play pre-warp in the first place, because it's a struggle to get ahead.

I always turn off tech trading in the options, because it's such an exploit. And I don't want to have a massive amount of money without working for it.

I try to get super-luxuries when I can, but I can't imagine how you even find them in the very early game, let alone have the resources to defend them from pirate attacks. (They're never very close to my empire, even when I do find one of them.)

Hey, everyone's different. I certainly don't care how you play the game. We're all entertained by different things. I just thought it was funny, since the things you don't like about the early game are exactly why I play it.


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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/23/2016 4:39:35 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		What I like about pre-warp, is that it gives pirates time to set up their business. What I dislike about it, is that it is dead boring.

The great thing about this game is that there are many ways to play it. I guess there are players that have had the game for two weeks, that have played more games than I have played since getting it when it first came out.

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/23/2016 5:11:45 PM   
Blabsawaw22

 

Posts: 285
Joined: 12/5/2014
Status: offline 		My "job" allows me to have too much free-time when I'm on "vacation".. so I can play Distant Worlds for 4+ hours at a time in one-sitting! believe it or not.. And I'm actually very ashamed to say I think I've sat in front of the stupid computer (laptop with tv screen!) actually for probably 8 hours a few nights..

I kid you not, I probably have a clot from sitting too long.. thanks Distant Worlds..thanks..

And how else do you think I'm able to bombard this forum with my postings?? And Matrix and the Developer should thank my @ss that I'm keeping this forum on Google hits! haha I've posted so many times in the last month even..

If I didn't post here, lets see how many of the only 4-5 same people I keep seeing posting here, post..

haha


quote:

I just thought it was funny, since the things you don't like about the early game are exactly why I play it.


right, well, I understand the need to "build" things up.. but man aren't we all doing that in life anyway and it's slow enough there! So that's probably the reason I can't stand sitting in Pre-warp..

By the way, I did used to like pre-warp.. as it was somewhat satisfying after I did build up after years of waiting to get a big fleet.. etc..

but now, After having done that a few times, I like to start off with 1 or 3 colonies and some money already etc.. I guess because I know in the end, Late-game, all that "building" up wasn't worth it.. ha. I just have more fun trying different fleets combinations and trying to see what 1000 little escorts with one torpedo and 1 Armor and 1 shield will do.. if set on "fee when attacked" but they have a speed of 30 cruise and 90 sprint! haha..

Don't even lie to yourself, you know you are going to try that in your next game..


quote:

What I like about pre-warp, is that it gives pirates time to set up their business. What I dislike about it, is that it is dead boring.


I didn't even need to say anything... there it is... If WCG likes "dead boring" build up games.. hey, your right, glad you enjoy that ha.



< Message edited by Blabsawaw22 -- 2/23/2016 7:47:22 PM >

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/23/2016 7:23:15 PM   
HerpInYourDerp

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline 		Personally, I don't mind pre-warp starts, although that's also partly because I don't like/trust the way the game spawns your initial assets nor the default templates they're based off, but altering them to my starting preferences would completely break the AI. I just keep research costs fairly low to speed up progress and balance it out.

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/23/2016 8:18:22 PM   
Hattori Hanzo


Posts: 734
Joined: 3/21/2011
From: Okinawa
Status: offline 		learned more here on economy and cashflow than reading the game manual

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/23/2016 10:21:34 PM   
BlueTemplar


Posts: 887
Joined: 4/29/2010
Status: offline 		I guess it's like will all strategies, once you've fully explored them and know them by heart, there's not much fun to be had anymore.
And the early game, in (all?) games has less elements to work with so generally less strategies to try, and by definition you end up playing more early than late games.

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/23/2016 10:51:48 PM   
HerpInYourDerp

 

Posts: 118
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Status: offline 		It's also that aspect of anticipation. You're limited with what you can do during this time as far as affecting the large-scale, so you innately become more focused and more involved on the things you can do.

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/24/2016 2:23:01 PM   
WCG

 

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Joined: 5/30/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blabsawaw22

I didn't even need to say anything... there it is... If WCG likes "dead boring" build up games..



Heh, heh. Well, it wasn't actually me who called it "dead boring," you know. But I have no doubt that I enjoy games that others would think boring, and vice versa. It's all subjective.

Have you ever played Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead? It's a different kind of game entirely, but when you start, you have to avoid almost every enemy, as you struggle to survive with no skills and no equipment.

Or Kenshi, maybe? When you start, the weakest bandit in the world can kick your butt. There is nothing you can beat in a fight, as you've got no skills, terrible stats, and almost no equipment. I love it!

That's what I love about pre-warp in Distant Worlds - well, one of the things, at least. I love that I have to pay extortion money to bandits. I love that it's a struggle just to explore my starting solar system, at first.

That slow advance from a weak start, struggling just to survive, might seem boring to other people (and your feelings about it are just as valid as mine, of course), but I love it!


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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/24/2016 3:06:31 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		What I dislike about it is that if you min-max, there is no reason to not just wait for hyperdrive. All you achieve by fighting in the long term, is to reduce the stores on the capital.

And even if I am not a min-maxer, plodding around fighting pirates with no hyperdrive is not my idea of fun. And I refuse to pay protection money after getting my spaceport "up, armed, and shielded" :)

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/24/2016 4:05:21 PM   
BlueTemplar


Posts: 887
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Status: offline 		No-one tried tweaking pre-warp to make pirates weaker during that time?

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/24/2016 6:35:31 PM   
Blabsawaw22

 

Posts: 285
Joined: 12/5/2014
Status: offline 		Spore is the only game I think I've played where it was fun to "built" up from nothing.. You were a cell that had to build by eating small tiny things and could be eating by everything else until you were big enough. I know the drill, as I've played many other games similar, (aren't most all games building up anyway from essentially nothing?)

the thing is, Games like Spore did it within reasonable time. You were just about to get bored with it and then you move on to the next stage of the game..

I suppose you can 4x the speed of Distant Worlds the entire prewarp.. I haven't done Pre-Warp in awhile.. so I don't remember if that helps or not.. but I already know there will be problems missing fights and/or things you need to be at a slower speed for..

Look if you like Pre-Warp. no problem.. they did make it in the game.. I just wonder why they were trying to add a another long "stage" to an already long-termed staged game.. that's the confusing part..

meanwhile you guys talking about resources being put in the right places.. they should have worked on strong Automation instead of deciding to work on Pre-Warp Gameplay!!

ha.


< Message edited by Blabsawaw22 -- 2/24/2016 7:33:18 PM >

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/24/2016 6:51:33 PM   
Hattori Hanzo


Posts: 734
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From: Okinawa
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quote:

That's what I love about pre-warp in Distant Worlds - well, one of the things, at least. I love that I have to pay extortion money to bandits. I love that it's a struggle just to explore my starting solar system, at first.

That slow advance from a weak start, struggling just to survive, might seem boring to other people (and your feelings about it are just as valid as mine, of course), but I love it!



me too: in 4x space strategy games I love to start from the very beginning pre-warp stages if possible - this give me that GREAT sense of achievement as my little Empire slowly grow-up that I love the much..

this way early game is for me entertaining just as middle and late game.

to be more precise, my trend is to have the greater percentage of game satisfaction in early and middle game, losing somewhat interest in late game.


< Message edited by Hattori Hanzo -- 2/24/2016 6:53:15 PM >

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RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/24/2016 7:22:47 PM   
Bingeling

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blabsawaw22

meanwhile you guys talking about resources being put in the right places.. they should have worked on strong Automation instead of deciding to work on Pre-Warp Gameplay!!

The thing is, there have been expansion, and expansions need a feature. Pre-warp was a quite good idea, and a nice Feature for Shadows. You can't release a paid expansion that is just a glorified patch.

Legends was somewhat close to that, it lacked the big ticket item, but at least it added lots of smaller nice things (borders, characters).

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Post #: 27
RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/24/2016 7:44:32 PM   
Blabsawaw22

 

Posts: 285
Joined: 12/5/2014
Status: offline 		Look, Shadows was great in the idea behind it, It did add a major "feature" to play as a Pirate.. That is genius.




This Other "feature" you mention, is :
quote:


Start a new empire before the discovery of hyperspace travel and try to expand into the stars,
- Taken from the Shadows official Matrix page.


So... taking away Hyperspace drive and forcing you to find it in one of the planets that is always in your home system is a "major expansion feature?"

couldn't they have just done that in the first game and made it so you had to send an explorer to a planet to get hyperdrive tech..??

How is not having a hyperdrive when starting a game, a major expansion feature?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just really want to know..

< Message edited by Blabsawaw22 -- 2/24/2016 8:02:15 PM >

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Post #: 28
RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/24/2016 8:37:41 PM   
Bingeling

 

Posts: 5186
Joined: 8/12/2010
Status: offline 		From the start, why make Distant Worlds. He could just make a clone of pacman. The options were all there.

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Post #: 29
RE: Understanding Cashflow - 2/24/2016 8:48:08 PM   
Hattori Hanzo


Posts: 734
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From: Okinawa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

From the start, why make Distant Worlds. He could just make a clone of pacman. The options were all there.


not sure to having understand what you mean



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