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New retraet rules are no treat - 2/27/2016 5:06:09 AM

BrianG

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So here we have.

4th panzer attacked from 4 sides first week of December 41. retreats thru ZOC.

Losses seem way to low for blizzard turn where German unit, which has a hold at all cost order, retreats.

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< Message edited by BrianG -- 2/27/2016 5:10:34 AM >

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battle detail - 2/27/2016 5:17:28 AM

BrianG

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Here are the German losses for the prior battle.

No heavy guns at all.

I though the blizzard made moving stuff very difficult and thus weapons abandoned If retreat.

Where's the pain!

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Post #: 2

RE: battle detail - 2/27/2016 6:32:55 AM

DesertedFox

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I have retreated only two German units in my game, a Mot and Arm. The Arm had to retreat a 2nd hex due to stacking.

The losses were quite light I found. In fact they were far lighter than other Germans Mot/Arm units were taking in their own successful attacks.
I am not too worried by this, as I found the game to date (only turn 8) seems to be quite different and balanced overall since I last played it like 3 years ago.

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Post #: 3

RE: battle detail - 2/27/2016 6:56:13 AM

morvael

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Fighting withdrawal works as designed. But I can disable it for the duration of First Winter.

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RE: battle detail - 2/27/2016 7:16:29 AM

821Bobo

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quote:

But I can disable it for the duration of First Winter.

Why? Blizzard has some magic effects disabling withdrawal and Germans can only run in panics?

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Post #: 5

RE: battle detail - 2/27/2016 7:34:10 AM

SigUp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Fighting withdrawal works as designed. But I can disable it for the duration of First Winter.

Maybe - if possible - decrease the efficiency for the first winter to simulate the lack of German mobility but completely disabling it is the wrong way to go. The first winter wasn't some magical device that restored balance like it's used (unfortunately) in WitE due to the engine having trouble modelling the breakdown of the German units during Summer/Autumn 1941. December 1941 was actually the month with the lowest amount of reported losses until April 1942, to post the complete monthly breakdown of losses to all causes for the Heer from June 1941 to April 1942:

June 1941: 41.087
July 1941: 166.818
Aug. 1941: 195.725
Sept. 1941: 141.041
Oct. 1941: 114.865
Nov. 1941: 87.139
Dec. 1941: 77.857
Jan. 1942: 87.082
Feb. 1942: 87.651
March 1942: 102.194
April 1942: 60.030

What we need is an overall increase in combat losses for both sides, not a specific adjustment for the first winter.

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RE: battle detail - 2/27/2016 8:53:12 AM

morvael

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Yes, losses in men were lowest. But losses in things like artillery were highest. Horses died, vehicles broke, men froze, the rest fled on foot (or stumps). I thought disabling withdrawal could represent that period quite accurately, maybe it should focus on artillery and AFV losses, but unfortunately in WitE this is connected as each element is welded with men.

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/27/2016 10:48:19 AM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

So here we have.

4th panzer attacked from 4 sides first week of December 41. retreats thru ZOC.

Losses seem way to low for blizzard turn where German unit, which has a hold at all cost order, retreats.

I never gave it a 'hold at all costs' order

.On the other hand, game doesn't impose Stalin's no retreat order either.

No real consolation to you Brian, but my other game is at exactly the same stage with same house rules, but I'm playing Russian in that one so I will share your pain.

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 2/27/2016 10:53:36 AM >

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 1:31:14 PM

VigaBrand

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One question. Is the new retreat rule for games with +1 soviet side?
It feels very hard to inflict losses on the german side.
Is that WAD?

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Post #: 9

RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 1:39:01 PM

morvael

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It's for all games. But I plan to reduce the chance for that event to happen for next patch.

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Post #: 10

RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 2:23:02 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

It's for all games. But I plan to reduce the chance for that event to happen for next patch.

I don't know if its related but the new patch has made German tanks invincible and Soviet tank losses quite silly. Here's my latest turn - Feb 44. Pzr divisions retreat through zones of control and lose 10 tanks, a Gds Mech Corp attacks a security regiment and loses 15.

Vigabrand has 13,600 AFVs (Feb 44) to my 16,000. At this rate I'll be out of tanks by the summer while he has a number of 30+cv Pzr divisions running around.

I'm sorry but while some of the changes are good, the effect is to undermine the game ... I must admit to the point where playing seems .... well pointless to be honest.

there is no way that a perfectly normal turn should be generating 10-1 tank losses.

Is this another 'pelton-rule'? Because, to be honest I see no point carrying on with this particular game unless I want to hide all my armoured formations somewhere near the Urals till this is sorted out

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< Message edited by loki100 -- 2/29/2016 2:26:07 PM >

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 2:29:01 PM

morvael

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This is result of trying to get 1941 losses to historical level, but I admit it doesn't work well for late war. With new retreat rules extra protection to German tanks may not be required.

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Post #: 12

RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 2:31:25 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

This is result of trying to get 1941 losses to historical level, but I admit it doesn't work well for late war. With new retreat rules extra protection to German tanks may not be required.

I'm sorry but that is not much help to those of us with games in the late war. I am producing around 350 tanks a turn, I lost no factories and maximised relocation. At this rate I am losing a net 700 tanks a turn while my opponent's Pzr divisions become even bigger. I'll be out of tanks by about June 44.

So what do we do?

Just give up?

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 2:47:42 PM

morvael

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I too had losses of T-34 higher than production if at least 1/2 of my mobile formations were engaged in my old PBEM (my record high was 2048 I believe, also highest ratio was 10.74:1). But the exchange ratio overall was not as bad. I'm sure with new retreat rules that extra protection is no longer needed. But I wonder why the numbers during testing didn't show that combined effect to be so serious.

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Post #: 14

RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 3:01:26 PM

chaos45

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Loki---well me and Peltons game is only up to Nov 1943---but Im not seeing near the same results in tank losses so far.

Will check more closely on my next turn but I launched a massive assault the first snow turn involving 30+ Mobile corps all attacking at least once if not 2-3 times and only lost several hundred AFV....think total exchange rate closer to 3-4:1 Soviet to German AFVs.

Now Im bombing the crap out of the Germans, 3 bombings pre-attack, once I successfully push them to a new hex 3 more bombings, next hex 3 more.....Im seeing German Panzer divisions basically gutted after 1 week of combat...as im attacking them at least 3-4 times and bombing them 9+ times all in one turn. Not to mention if he actually stays close enough for my Rocket/Breakthrough artillery divisions to go to work on the frontline.

The amount of ground attack planes pounding German positions is astounding since Ive met no air resistance. Average airstrike is 100+ IL2's for every single air attack, proves pretty devastating over a turn.

Operational/AA losses for these big pushes with max air effort seems to be about 200-300 Soviet aircraft---which to me seems a lot for not a single German plane in the sky.

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 3:07:19 PM

Mehring

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T-34 losses were obscene right up to 1944. Most were lost due to mechanical failure, they were worse than panthers. Russian players have just got used to having far more tanks than historically, and German tank losses are a nazi wet dream, under this patch and the last. I've said this before and evidenced it, morvael says nothing, and the game gets no better, possible worse.

+1 me to the getting fed up list.

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 3:17:15 PM

loki100

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I am not exploiting the air bombing spam that this patch allows. I've decided to keep to no more than 2 attacks per hex.

We have played 4 turns under the patch - all in 1944.

Tank losses (axis-Soviet)

T135 71-1073; T136 79-643; T137 113-1111; T138 159-1265

AFV nos

T135 14095-16749; t136 13823-16747; t137 13738-16185; t138 13629-16210

(German-Soviet in each case).

Add on a German army of 4,244,573 (T135), 4,163,567 (T138)

I guess I should be happy that in 4 turns I actually managed to reduce the net size of the German army by 80,000 men

So I am back to my question. I am going to run out of tanks by June while the German Pzr divisions become more and more powerful. I am fully aware that Soviet tank losses were horrendous but this is ridiculous. The invincible German tank apparently does exist?

Is it best just to write this off and give up - I mean I am quite a fan of the Gds rifle corps backed by lots of artillery but at some stage the Germans are going to be on the strategic offensive again.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 2/29/2016 3:20:32 PM >

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 3:24:09 PM

SigUp

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German tank losses during retreats should be relatively (by German standards) high. The Germans kept tank losses when attacking low by meticulously salvaging every tank that was still repairable. Just look at the tank loss figures for July 1943 at AGC panzer divisions:

65 Panzer III
174 Panzer IV

Of those only 3 Panzer III and 35 Panzer IV were lost from 5th to 14th July during the attack phase of Zitadelle. Losses were especially severe at 5th and 8th Panzer Divisions - the ones that didn't take part in Zitadelle but were committed to the defense of Orel from the beginning. They lost 55 and 41 tanks in July 1943.

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Post #: 18

RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 3:55:39 PM

Mehring

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When did you last lose 239 German tanks in a month along the entire front, let alone one AG? Well maybe along the entire front, at a squeeze. But your figure doesn't include panthers, tigers, elephants and assault guns. 23 panthers were irretrievably lost- burnt out- due to enemy fire, in the first five days of Kursk alone.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 2/29/2016 5:37:22 PM >

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 3:57:46 PM

chaos45

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Viga has an amazing amount of AFVs in your game lol....don't think Pelton has half that many. Then again I have far less tanks than you do as well. Guess we both engaged in abit fiercer fighting over 1943.

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 4:24:14 PM

Wuffer

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@ SigUp
Only very few PzIII were commited at Kursk as Mehring said, by the time the design was considered allready as outclassed for a main battle tank.
And please include the 'kills' of Ferdinands, Tigers and Panthers, as well as StuG's and StuH's
(edit: but you have a point; Kursk was _not_ a tactical soviet victory if one compare the losses..)

But 12'ooo operating German AFV's with a 4.5 mio army??????
Quite fertil, this folks...

As you are playing pbm, why not just move back to the last turn without the beta(b e t a )?

< Message edited by Wuffer -- 2/29/2016 4:40:45 PM >

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 4:28:20 PM

Wuffer

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@ chaos
afaik, Viga has hibernated 2(two) armies of inf. and panzers each(!) in Prussia...
obviously now equipped with Leopard tanks

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 4:55:46 PM

SigUp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

@ SigUp
Only very few PzIII were commited at Kursk as Mehring said, by the time the design was considered allready as outclassed for a main battle tank.
And please include the 'kills' of Ferdinands, Tigers and Panthers, as well as StuG's and StuH's
(edit: but you have a point; Kursk was _not_ a tactical soviet victory if one compare the losses..)

Army Group Centre tank losses 5-14 July 1943:

2nd Panzer Division: 14 Panzer IV
4th Panzer Division: 6 Panzer IV
9th Panzer Division: 2 Panzer IV
12th Panzer Division: 1 Panzer IV
18th Panzer Division: 2 Panzer III, 9 Panzer IV
20th Panzer Division: 1 Panzer III, 3 Panzer IV

505th PanzerAbteilung: 4 Tiger
177th StuGAbteilung: 1 StuG
185th StuGAbteilung: 3 StuG
189th StuGAbteilung: 1 StuG
244th StuGAbteilung: 5 StuG
245th StuGAbteilung: 2 StuG
904th StuGAbteilung: 2 StuG
909th StuGAbteilung: 3 StuG
656th PzJ�gerRegiment: 19 Ferdinand
216th StuPzAbteilung: 10 StuPz

Army Group Centre tank losses July 1943

2nd Panzer Division: 13 Panzer III, 29 Panzer IV, 3 BefPz
4th Panzer Division: 3 Panzer III, 15 Panzer IV, 1 BefPz
5th Panzer Division: 11 Panzer III, 43 Panzer IV, 1 BefPz
8th Panzer Division: 14 Panzer III, 24 Panzer IV, 3 BefPz
9th Panzer Division: 7 Panzer III, 18 Panzer IV, 1 BefPz
12th Panzer Division: 13 Panzer IV, 1 BefPz
18th Panzer Division: 14 Panzer III, 12 Panzer IV, 1 BefPz
20th Panzer Division: 3 Panzer III, 20 Panzer IV, 1 BefPz

505th PanzerAbteilung: 5 Tiger
216th StuPzAbteilung: 17 StuPz IV
656th PzJ�gerRegiment: 39 Ferdinand

Army Group South tank losses 5-17 July 1943

3rd Panzer Division: 6 Panzer III, 3 Panzer IV
11th Panzer Division: 2 Panzer III, 3 Panzer IV
Gro�deutschland: 3 Panzer III, 16 Panzer IV, 1 StuG
Leibstandarte: 1 Panzer III, 9 Panzer IV, 1 Tiger, 1 StuG
Das Reich: 1 Panzer III, 6 Panzer IV, 1 Tiger, 1 StuG
Totenkopf: 2 Panzer III, 8 Panzer IV, 1 Tiger, 1 StuG
6th Panzer Division: 3 FlammPz, 9 Panzer III, 13 Panzer IV
7th Panzer Division: 8 Panzer III, 2 Panzer IV
19th Panzer Division: 8 Panzer III, 19 Panzer IV

503rd PanzerAbteilung: 3 Tiger
10th PanzerBrigade: 44 Panther
911th StuGAbteilung: 3 StuG
905th StuGAbteilung: 5 StuG
228th StuGAbteilung: 1 StuG
393rd StuGBttr: 5 StuG

Total tank and assault gun losses along the entire Eastern Front from 1 July to 31 August 1943 amounted to 1331 units.

(in reply to Wuffer)

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 5:11:03 PM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

@ chaos
afaik, Viga has hibernated 2(two) armies of inf. and panzers each(!) in Prussia...
obviously now equipped with Leopard tanks

You should try playing 'Making History 2'. My Pz units were all equipped with Leopard tanks when I invaded Russia in 1940, whilst ME 262s protected them from bombing raids by massed Russian airships.

That has to be the worst WWII game ever..............

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 5:37:25 PM

gingerbread

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Hmm. Seems risky using Me 262s against airships. Loose cloth can clog the air intakes to the jet engine.

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 10:51:14 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

@ SigUp
Only very few PzIII were commited at Kursk as Mehring said, by the time the design was considered allready as outclassed for a main battle tank.
And please include the 'kills' of Ferdinands, Tigers and Panthers, as well as StuG's and StuH's
(edit: but you have a point; Kursk was _not_ a tactical soviet victory if one compare the losses..)

But 12'ooo operating German AFV's with a 4.5 mio army??????
Quite fertil, this folks...

As you are playing pbm, why not just move back to the last turn without the beta(b e t a )?

problem with going back is there is plenty in the patch that is good. Sorting out the German swapping bugs should improve the end game (for both sides). The over-powered air changes can be controlled by a simple houserule. Also I'd spent the two turns before the patch setting up a trap, and the last 4 turns slowly putting it in place. Not got a clue if it will work (or if I will have any tanks left by the time its over) but with the best will in the world vigabrand can't ignore the threat to his flank at Kiev.

so really there is no point going back. Clearly I've just got to put up with an imposed change and lose 1000 tanks a week. I am really impressed at how well equipped German security regiments are as even they are now deadly if a Soviet tank gets near to them.

We'll have to see, but if the recent trend of the German Pzr divisions to become stronger as my armour weakens then this becomes another game lost due to the impact of patches ... at least it got to 1944 so that is an improvement.

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 11:05:35 PM

Peltonx

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Games are all different and some small things add up.

Looking at a 1 battle or even a few turns is not helpful.

You need a 10 turn sample window and yes I know this sucks as I have had to do it for yrs.

I feel your pain loki as you probably are right, but for sure grind all along the front - rifle Corps generally win games

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 2/29/2016 11:52:09 PM

Wuffer

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@SigUp
the forum software eat my longish comment.:-)
Thanks anyway for clarification - impressive data, especially as Kursk was interpreted as a great _tactical_ victory for the Red Army...
nearly everyday the remains of previously not counted victims are found, so the real casuality numbers by the Russians will probably for ever unknown.
In WiTE terms, they crushed a forficationed hex, level '3' I would guess, guarded by at least one reinforced Guards Rifle Corps including reserve activations by at least one additional Tank Corps, perhaps more. And all were utterly trashed.
Anyone is free to his own conclusions regarding the defensive values of RCs in the game.

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RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 3/1/2016 12:28:44 AM

Wuffer

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@ Loki

ok, a calm analysis of the battle results came to following concerns

(1.) He is very near to the 'Endsieg', because SHG's will to fight is breaking.

(2.) You acted on determinated assumptions - for example that the Red Army will conquer Berlin someday, that he was broken in the blizzard, that your tanks were superior etc. - which is not only dangerous in wars, but also could very easily come to utterly devasting results (especially, one might add, if your are fighting Prussia, lol. Ask whomever you want, but don't forget the Czar.
No, seriously, the millions of battlehardend soldiers you face are indeed astonishing; even more, as it is impossible for Germany to field such an army (we could neglect Austria for a moment). There is only one conclusion: This aren't Germans! Somehow they found a lot of volunteers... Let's take for example your partisans: While they might have been useful once in a while in blowing up some minor railroads, there overall numbers are... very small. One would exspect hundred of thousend taking arms against the foreign occupier, but no, alltogether they are no more than a few clustered squads. But where are all the other guys gone? Yes, you guessed it. Some of them were not allowed to take arms.

(3.) Let's be honest: Your tanks are crappy. And your army sucks.
At some point, however, this will change.
Unfortuneatly your advisers have lured you in the dangerous assumption, even twice, that the German army was beat and finished, as if some weaks in the winter could break their spirit, what a myth.
So, at some point you have to kill'em all - it's hard at the beginning, as Pelton said, but it will improve.

(4.) Especially with a new patch, lol

ps: you gave up muuuuuch to early against SigUp...
again based on questionable comparisions - but neglecting the little fact that it's a GG game, lol

at some point, they will crash.
it's up to you, Loki Germanicus.

:-)

< Message edited by Wuffer -- 3/1/2016 12:35:58 AM >

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Post #: 29

RE: New retraet rules are no treat - 3/1/2016 12:44:33 AM

Michael T