Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing

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Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/5/2016 9:33:05 PM

Zorch

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'Scientists may be closer to revealing the route taken by Hannibal as he crossed to Alps to attack ancient Rome.

A team says they have found a churned up layer of soil at an Alpine pass near the French-Italian border that dates to the time of Hannibal's invasion.

In Archaeometry journal, they say the disturbed sediment was rich in microbes that are common in horse manure.'

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35969107

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/5/2016 9:36:22 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

'Scientists may be closer to revealing the route taken by Hannibal as he crossed to Alps to attack ancient Rome.

A team says they have found a churned up layer of soil at an Alpine pass near the French-Italian border that dates to the time of Hannibal's invasion.

In Archaeometry journal, they say the disturbed sediment was rich in microbes that are common in horse manure.'

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35969107

warspite1

That's a funny looking horse....

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/5/2016 10:23:32 PM

wings7

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Ken, interesting stuff! Thanks for posting!

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/6/2016 12:40:43 AM

Zorch

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It would be nice to establish which pass Hannibal used. This dung was found on the Col de Traversette pass; other possibilities are the Little St Bernard Pass, Col de Montgen�vre, and Col de Mont Cenis.

(in reply to wings7)

Post #: 4

RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/6/2016 1:00:59 AM

catwhoorg

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The Baldrick School of Archeology

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/6/2016 5:30:06 PM

Orm

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Thank you for sharing.

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/6/2016 6:13:46 PM

waltero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

'Scientists may be closer to revealing the route taken by Hannibal as he crossed to Alps to attack ancient Rome.

A team says they have found a churned up layer of soil at an Alpine pass near the French-Italian border that dates to the time of Hannibal's invasion.

In Archaeometry journal, they say the disturbed sediment was rich in microbes that are common in horse manure.'

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35969107

warspite1

That's a funny looking horse....

That's funny looking, what ever it is.

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/6/2016 9:07:45 PM

CGGrognard

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It would be interesting if they found a footprint in the dung as well. It would indicate that in those days, some weren't watching where they stepped.

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/6/2016 9:11:20 PM

Zorch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CGGrognard

It would be interesting if they found a footprint in the dung as well. It would indicate that in those days, some weren't watching where they stepped.

Reminds me of the joke, 'What's brown and sounds like a bell?'.

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Post #: 9

RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/6/2016 9:18:25 PM

Zap

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quote:

ORIGINAL: waltero

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

'Scientists may be closer to revealing the route taken by Hannibal as he crossed to Alps to attack ancient Rome.

A team says they have found a churned up layer of soil at an Alpine pass near the French-Italian border that dates to the time of Hannibal's invasion.

In Archaeometry journal, they say the disturbed sediment was rich in microbes that are common in horse manure.'

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35969107

warspite1

That's a funny looking horse....

That's funny looking, what ever it is.

Depicts a constipated elephant making an effort to leave the ever elusive dung pile.

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/6/2016 9:36:17 PM

Yogi the Great

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Sounds like a bunch of Bull (make that Elephant) **** to me.

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/6/2016 9:37:14 PM

Yogi the Great

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Sounds like a bunch of Bull (make that Elephant) **** to me.

Wow picky sensor was sh**

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Post #: 12

RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/7/2016 9:39:25 PM

CGGrognard

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I'll question; what's brown and smells like a bell?

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/7/2016 9:49:40 PM

Fallschirmjager

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So horses from that era could of never used that pass for any other reason

Sounds odd to find some carbon dated horse dung and declare it belonging to Hannibal's army.
There are only a handful of routes through the Alps. Could not any number of other possibilities exist as why horse dung would be there?
Were those not trading routes as well?
To haul good around in that era you needed horses.

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/7/2016 10:54:57 PM

Zap

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

So horses from that era could of never used that pass for any other reason

Sounds odd to find some carbon dated horse dung and declare it belonging to Hannibal's army.
There are only a handful of routes through the Alps. Could not any number of other possibilities exist as why horse dung would be there?
Were those not trading routes as well?
To haul good around in that era you needed horses.

Also there are only certain routes they could have taken and historians already know the trade routes. So what is the big reveal here? Now if the found spear heads sword blades that would be more significant than Elephant dung.

< Message edited by Zap -- 4/7/2016 10:56:41 PM >

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/7/2016 11:45:43 PM

Zorch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CGGrognard

I'll question; what's brown and smells like a bell?

Dung!

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Post #: 16

RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/7/2016 11:53:09 PM

radic202

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

So horses from that era could of never used that pass for any other reason

Sounds odd to find some carbon dated horse dung and declare it belonging to Hannibal's army.
There are only a handful of routes through the Alps. Could not any number of other possibilities exist as why horse dung would be there?
Were those not trading routes as well?
To haul good around in that era you needed horses.

I am with you here! Now if they found it to be "Elephant Dung" then we would have something???

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/8/2016 10:47:29 PM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: radic202
I am with you here! Now if they found it to be "Elephant Dung" then we would have something???

No one on earth can say a conclusive "yes" but If they found elephant excrement then yes, they could say they found the pass used by Hannibal - Saint Bernard according to Napoleon.

1) The elephants brought by Hannibal were conclusively the first ones seen in the Alps (and the last ones, see below).

2) we know from Roman sources that the Carthaginians were forced to deliver war elephants after their defeat in the second Punic War. Needless to say, the Romans were not mad enough to make them cross the Alps

In fact, they ended up being disappointed with these war elephants, of little military use.

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/9/2016 9:07:10 AM

Orm

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I suspect that the amount of horse dung dropped around the same time would show the difference of dung from an army from traders.

Since Hasdrubal's army allegedly took the same route as Hannibal did, and I am not aware of any other armies doing a crossing around that time, I suspect that if they get a time stamp of the dung then that would settle it.

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/9/2016 9:10:39 AM

warspite1

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I am sorry but the more I read this story the more I think its just a load of crap.

Sorry. Someone had to say it...

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/9/2016 9:12:05 AM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I am sorry but the more I read this story the more I think its just a load of crap.

Sorry. Someone had to say it...

Don't be sorry.

But you would be amazed how much information you can get out of a pile of s**t.

< Message edited by Orm -- 4/9/2016 9:13:16 AM >

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/9/2016 9:13:25 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I am sorry but the more I read this story the more I think its just a load of crap.

Sorry. Someone had to say it...

Don't be sorry. But you would be amazed how much information you can get out of a pile of s**t.

warspite1

That's what Mrs W says everytime I open my mouth......

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 22

RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/9/2016 9:17:01 AM

Orm

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It is refreshing to laugh in the morning. But it would have been better if I had not been drinking tea at the same time...

On the serious side I doubt that a Lady as Mrs W would use such language. Especially about a gentleman as warspite1.

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RE: Dung clue to Hannibal's Alpine crossing - 4/10/2016 12:24:21 PM

gradenko2k

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

So horses from that era could of never used that pass for any other reason

Sounds odd to find some carbon dated horse dung and declare it belonging to Hannibal's army.
There are only a handful of routes through the Alps. Could not any number of other possibilities exist as why horse dung would be there?
Were those not trading routes as well?
To haul good around in that era you needed horses.

"Disturbed layer of soil" and "mass of sediment" suggests a large volume of horse manure within a small and specific time-frame corresponding with Hannibal's traversal of the mountains.

Yes, horses could have been trotting to-and-fro that pass for hundreds of years, but only an intense period of activity, such as an entire army's worth of horses passing through in one go, would have generated a dung deposit of that size and volume.

(in reply to Fallschirmjager)

Post #: 24