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RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/12/2016 9:02:28 PM   
AllenK


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From: England
Status: offline 		To: Herr Chancellor,

From: The Divine Emperor

Reports from my diplomatic people suggest the pre-war intelligence assessments of the Polish army dispositions may have been subject to a degree of inaccuracy. There is talk of logistical breakdowns and troops being ordered into battle without the requisite supplies being available. How are we to address this unfortunate turn of events?

From: El Duce Supremo

Whadda mistake'a to make.

(in reply to AllenK)
Post #: 31
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/12/2016 11:16:14 PM   
AllenK


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Status: offline 		A synopsis of discussions so far.

A fair number have been played out already in Poland and China.

The Japs were seriously considering sending troops to Persia and The Divine Emperor initially sketched out that deployment. The plan broke down because the CP chain couldn't reach into the Persian Gulf. I think it might have needed the Italians to put one of their CP's there (assuming the game would both allow the Italian placement and for it to be used by the Japs). However that was a moot point because they didn't and it was too late by Japanese set-up.

It was only after the Jap set-up was done (and the CP chain re-located) that Centuur-san contributed his ideas. To make it work (I think and correct me if I'm wrong) would have needed Yamamoto, an Inf/Mar plus a CP to sail as far as possible towards Persia. Somewhere around the Bay of Bengal/Arabian Sea. They would sit there awaiting the USSR DoW on Persia, which would then be aligned with Japan. They would then sail into Bandar Shapur. Yamamoto would reorg the Trans and CP.

Next impulse, the CP sails to the Gulf to establish the supply link and send an oil back to Japan. The Mar/Inf moves onto the oil hex to the NW and they sit there awaiting developments. USSR would lose the oil unless it left Persia unconquered while destroying with the Peacekeepers. This would all take time and the Soviet forces would be tied down a long way from home.

Tempting and could still have been put into action but it would make things more difficult in China due to the abstraction and the set-up assuming Yamamoto was initially going to China. Had Germany been aiming for Fall Gelb and an early Barbarossa we might have tried it but German ambitions are focussed elsewhere.


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Post #: 32
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/12/2016 11:54:05 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		Japan would have had to DOW USSR to stay in Persia after conquest. As the Axis I would never give the Russians a Pact with Japan. The Persian oil is too valuable and too easy for Japan to get.

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Post #: 33
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/12/2016 11:57:00 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		Oh and the Japanese Battle Cruisers can sail divisions straight into Persian ports, useful if the Russians already have Paras.

Otherwise the way to do is to re-org some CP in Italian East Africa using a TRS on a naval impulse.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 34
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/13/2016 4:11:38 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Japan would have had to DOW USSR to stay in Persia after conquest. As the Axis I would never give the Russians a Pact with Japan. The Persian oil is too valuable and too easy for Japan to get.


That's the point isn't it? With a Japanese-Soviet neutrality pact in place, the USSR has his hands free in Persia and the Japanese are free to go all out in China and only have to maintain a garrison in Manchuria and Korea consisting of the TERR of those countries. Don't fall into the deadly trap of not having a garrison at the border, because the USSR might start thinking big if you don't.

Apart from this, it's no use to send Yamamoto to Persia as a peacekeeper when you have a neutrality pact with the USSR. That's to say: what's the closest Japanese controlled hex where Yamamoto and their units will get "teleported" too? Is that at the Chinese frontline? If so, why not put them into Persia so they will get into a nice position in China anyway? That might be faster than moving them through China itself. Gamey, but it's the rules...

_____________________________

Peter

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Post #: 35
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/13/2016 7:28:45 PM   
AllenK


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From: England
Status: offline 		All, I appreciate all the advice and ideas on this.

Ultimately, I wanted the Japanese to be free of Soviet intervention in China and Manchuria. Making a beeline for Persia was very tempting but I couldn't quite see how to make it work when I did the set up and am not that confident how I would have managed in China with the abstraction of forces to Persia.

However, this is all being stored away for potential use in future games.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 36
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/13/2016 8:03:05 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		Japan is stronger than you think, esp. if they focus on Infantry gearing early.

The usual winner of a Japan/Russia war is ... Germany.

If the Russians go into Persia I send in the Japanese every time and there is little the Russians can do unless they go historical and jointly invade with the CW.

(But then we extend Attack Weakness to the ChiCommms as well. I think China is ridiculously freed from their historical outlook, in the game, though no one usually cares.)

But on the new map and with unlimited Russian cavalry divisions, Japan needs a Pact with Russia by 1942 at the latest, for their long-term interest. Axis interest is different and an early Japan/USSR war should help the overall cause a fair bit but still with the possibility of ending it on-time. A Russia under extreme pressure in the mid-game should be willing to deal.

So good Russian play, IMO, is to leave a few GARR in Khabarovsk and Blagovyeschensk and ignore the Japanese until they are safe from Adolf.

< Message edited by brian brian -- 4/13/2016 8:05:59 PM >

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Post #: 37
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/14/2016 8:19:54 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		It depends totally on how the war in China is going, if the USSR can ignore the Japanese.

Sure, I agree that the USSR should not start a war against the Japanese if China isn't in danger of being conquered, but it is wise for the USSR to keep at least some fast units in Siberia to make sure the Japanese has to keep some units in Manchuria to prevent the USSR to do nasty things. If the Japanese are foolish enough not to keep some units in that area, a Soviet HQ with 2 fast Siberians and a couple of CAV can do a lot of damage.

The USSR shouldn't allow the Japanese a free walk into China with the unified map, not even with a neutrality pact in place. You have got at least 1,5 year before Adolf is ready for a Barbarossa, so use that year wisely and keep the Japanese thinking about a possible Soviet invasion. Will it come? Not if there are GAR sitting across the border. If so Tojo goes all out in China. That isn't good Russian play, IMO.

I never have Soviet GAR in Siberia. Those are very cheap loss takers in hero cities in the west.

I believe good Russian play is to set up the majority of the Siberians in the Far East and to have Zhukov and another Siberian at the Persian border. After demanding Bessarabia, I tend to move some units from that area, together with long range bombers to the Persian border and start things up there. Now: what's Yamamoto going to do? Wait until the USSR attacks Persia? Or enter China? That's the big question for the Japanese and that's the question the USSR should force the Japanese to answer. And with a small army in Siberia, the Japanese has a tough choice to make...


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Peter

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Post #: 38
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/14/2016 10:16:33 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		A lot depends on how well the Chinese are played though. I don't think they are in much danger of they are played properly - defend in stacks, retreat _before_ Japan can get good odds, pick the Blitz table unless surrounded, keep HQs from Japanese contact - but most players play them poorly and make it too easy for the Japanese to gobble them up, always hoping Japan rolls a 14 on the Assault table while their units sit still on the front lines.

But Japan holds the strategic initiative and can always pivot to fight the USSR quickly on their interior lines while keeping the Chinese pinned down (though that won't last as long on the new ooze-friendly map). Their long-range planes can be quite handy too. Japan can leave their Manchurian units in the for e pool and build them instantly when a need is detected. In my opinion, the odds the USSR can come out with any gains for itself in 1940 are low. They will lose a factory for sure, and take casualties. If they are still fighting when the Germans attack, they can't extricate their forces in Siberia very well while they extricate their European factories. (Edit: and here too the Russians are usually played poorly, fighting on too long with too much force, as a gamer playing a game with nothing else to do at the time is making the decisions).

All that is predicated on the possibility of a 1941 Barbarossa, which is extremely serious. If that is off the table, it is Japan that should garrison Manchuria strongly and possibly negotiate for a Pact, or just brace for impact.

< Message edited by brian brian -- 4/14/2016 10:21:21 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/15/2016 6:42:27 AM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		All true. But that still doesn't mean that the Soviets should neglect the Japanese by having only GAR in Siberia. That's giving Tojo the go ahead in China. If the Japanese throw everything they have at the Chinese, the Chinese might get in trouble (or not, depending on the dice). A small fast Soviet army makes sure they don't. IMHO GAR are not good units to use in an offense. So I rather have two Siberians, a HQ INF and a couple of CAV present in Siberia. Those GAR should be in hero cities in the west, not doing nothing in Siberia.

GAR are only good for one thing: delaying the German advance and be slaughtered a couple of times when doing so...



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Peter

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RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 10:51:51 AM   
AllenK


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From: England
Status: offline 		Herr Chancellor,

Does'a da Chancelloroni wisha da mighty legions of'a El Duce Supremo to srike'a da mortal blow to da Fenchies?

How about'a de Brits?

El D S.

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Post #: 41
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 10:55:32 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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From: Finland
Status: offline 		Italy is going to DoW France if they want to advance in Africa. They might as well do it now. And if you fo, they can't surprise you and I can send some stuff ti your factories.

If you have 4 range sub, can you bring it to North Sea box 0, initiate combat and stay on bottom? German nav would like to imtercept to combat.

(in reply to AllenK)
Post #: 42
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 11:02:38 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Status: offline 		What kind of defence is in Gibraltar?

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Post #: 43
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 11:06:03 AM   
AllenK


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From: England
Status: offline 		Could do but it would mean foregoing the surprise invasion of empty Algiers, which I think would be an automatic.

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Post #: 44
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 11:07:00 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Status: offline 		And what kind defence is in North Africa? Can you invade some nasty hex if Gibraltar is impossible?

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Post #: 45
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 11:08:56 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

Could do but it would mean foregoing the surprise invasion of empty Algiers, which I think would be an automatic.


Can you post a picture here. Algiers is nice too, is there some ships? And is it automatic? Invasion rules is my weak spot...

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Post #: 46
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 11:13:39 AM   
AllenK


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From: England
Status: offline 		5-4 Inf in Gib, so probably a bit too optimistic to try that one!

Africa wise, Algiers is probably best option. Port Said is in ZOC, so no invasion there. Cyprus could be taken.

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Post #: 47
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 11:16:21 AM   
AllenK


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From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer


quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

Could do but it would mean foregoing the surprise invasion of empty Algiers, which I think would be an automatic.


Can you post a picture here. Algiers is nice too, is there some ships? And is it automatic? Invasion rules is my weak spot...






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Mayhemizer_slith)
Post #: 48
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 11:17:54 AM   
AllenK


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From: England
Status: offline 		East Med




Attachment (1)

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RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 11:19:27 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Status: offline 		Are there any units in Gibraltar? If there is, I would invade Algiers (or if Algiers gets notional, 1-2 hexes west of Algiers to block rail line).

Fleet in West Med makes Wavell's way to France dangerous...

< Message edited by Mayhemizer -- 4/16/2016 11:21:29 AM >

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RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 11:37:44 AM   
AllenK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

Are there any units in Gibraltar? If there is, I would invade Algiers (or if Algiers gets notional, 1-2 hexes west of Algiers to block rail line).

Fleet in West Med makes Wavell's way to France dangerous...


5-4 Inf in Gibraltar.

I've just looked, Algiers can't be invaded. I'll wait to see whether I've managed to sink the French CP in West Med before deciding on which beach to hit. If it is sunk, then west as you suggest. If not and that 5-3 Inf is still in supply, then mountain hex NE. Inf won't be able to reach Algiers before I do. Allies would have to bring some unit in. They would have to be either Wavell or units in North Sea. Italian fleet waiting ready ...

So, that's the choice. Sub to North Sea or The Algerian Op.


< Message edited by AllenK -- 4/16/2016 11:39:16 AM >

(in reply to Mayhemizer_slith)
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RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 11:45:15 AM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Status: offline 		Sub is not needed, go for Algiers. But if he can rail INF, NE is not good. Better take attack in west with defensive shore bombardment.

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RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 12:04:15 PM   
AllenK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mayhemizer

Sub is not needed, go for Algiers. But if he can rail INF, NE is not good. Better take attack in west with defensive shore bombardment.


True. Looks like it depends on nailing the CP. Beachhead is the clear hex with the railway line 2 hexes west of Algiers. Anywhere else won't block it.

If CP's are not sunk, basic odds with me including shore-bombardment are 5:2 and the French could have some to add as well. I'll call the assault table as, although the Div will almost certainly perish, it has the best chance of taking out the French Inf. That'll clear the ground for those following on.

I think I'll need to run this from the West Med 2-box so I can put all the ships under air cover (Ftr and Nav). I expect the CW will sortie the RN in strength next impulse. I'm hoping the French will be a bit too preoccupied with the disturbance you will be creating to be able to use their navy.

< Message edited by AllenK -- 4/16/2016 12:17:21 PM >

(in reply to Mayhemizer_slith)
Post #: 53
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 12:26:38 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Status: offline 		Invasion from box 2 gives extra notional.

Ftr box 2, nav+4 ships as high as possible (few ships for interception and shore bomnardment).

On impulse 5 send sub to North Sea if there is transporters.

(in reply to AllenK)
Post #: 54
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 12:35:33 PM   
AllenK


Posts: 7259
Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
Status: offline 		Ah yes.

quote:

Invasion rules is my weak spot...


Not exactly one of my strong points either!

El Duce Supremo will head over to the main thread to make an historic announcement to the waiting world.

< Message edited by AllenK -- 4/16/2016 12:37:37 PM >

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Post #: 55
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 8:40:47 PM   
AllenK


Posts: 7259
Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
Status: offline 		Herr Chancellor,

Condolences on the last attack in Poland. I guess that counter-balances the somewhat good run of luck we have enjoyed so far.

The Divine Emperor.

It'a sucks'a.

El Duce.

(in reply to AllenK)
Post #: 56
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 8:56:55 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


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Status: offline 		Dice give, dice take.

Next impulse Belgium.

If Italian sub initiates combat in North Sea we can try to sink those transporters there. Most likely they land all units to Rotterdam, but transporter is always a juicy target.

France have 6 corps in southern France, let's hope they all stay there.

(in reply to AllenK)
Post #: 57
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 8:59:55 PM   
AllenK


Posts: 7259
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From: England
Status: offline 		Italian sub will be heading to North Sea, to facilitate that little plan.

If they thin the line, El Duce will see about an attack.

(in reply to Mayhemizer_slith)
Post #: 58
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/16/2016 9:08:43 PM   
AllenK


Posts: 7259
Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
Status: offline 		To move more than 1 corps, they will need to take a land option, which will suit El Duce nicely.

If the French and CW navies pile into the West Med to gang up on the Italians, 1 round and they are back to La Spezia.

(in reply to AllenK)
Post #: 59
RE: 4 player E-mail: Axis Only AAR - 4/17/2016 6:30:54 PM   
Mayhemizer_slith


Posts: 7654
Joined: 9/7/2011
From: Finland
Status: offline 		France chose land, I wonder if they start forming solid line in north. I was little worried about naval/combined and sending ships to West Med to take all losses.

Let's see if CW troops (Inf div and 2x Mot) land in Rotterdam or is Wavell trying his luck and sail to France.

(in reply to AllenK)
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