Some questions about the logistics system

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Some questions about the logistics system - 5/1/2016 1:18:05 PM

rmonical

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Is the way it works documented anywhere?

Background
Even though the rail head is closer and there is a repaired town that could be a marshaling center closer (Daugavpils), my 4th Panzer group units are reaching way back to get their supplies. In this case Radviliskis for LVI and Panevezys for XXXXI and the on loan XXXIX. LVI was reasonably filled up. XXXXI and XXXIX not so much. Trucks are at 170K/130K. There is essentially nothing at Duagavpils. A lot at the other two marshaling yards along the way. There is also a lot at Rokiskis, but it was not used by the panzers - just the infantry.

The questions:
Where are the excess trucks? I see supplies at the dumps but no trucks.
Is it save to assume that the fuel now sitting in these town after the logistics phase was not there at the beginning and not available to go to my Panzers? Will all of the fuel that is there now be allocated forward next turn (assuming I still have trucks)? So there is a lower limit to the amount of fuel AGN will get next week based on the fuel in the dumps in its rear area this week? Is there a possibility of getting more than that amount of fuel? How?
Is the function of the rail network to deliver logistics to the dumps and then the dumps move it forward by truck (and wagon for leg units? Daugavpils was repaired last turn but it did not receive anything this turn. Why not?

Does the game assume an upper limit for the railcap available to deliver supplies? Is it allocated peanut butter like across the available rails? Does operational use of the rail net effect its ability to deliver fuel?

I sent the bombers to NR from an airbase halfway between Daugavpils and Rezekne, repaired this turn. I moved the airbase to Rezekne. Where will those extra resources from this base go? Could I move the airbase to Pskov and establish a supply dump in advance of the rail network? Will the fuel be available to the Army next turn? In two turns?

Going back further, there is a little bit (5000) of fuel in Konigsburg. And then 34,000 in Danzig. Is railcap used to move it forward, or does the game also acknowledge the presence of coastal and riverine shipping between ports?

There is a lot of supply and fuel in Riga. But the XVI corps, closing in on Tallinn, is going back to Panevezys for its supplies. Why is this?

< Message edited by rmonical -- 5/1/2016 1:21:16 PM >

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/1/2016 2:02:54 PM

Lobster

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Where are the corps located that you mention? What is the in game date? Logistics for AGN were quite different than for the other two Army Groups because not all of the Baltic rail net had been converted to Soviet gauge and the road net was somewhat better than what was found in the Soviet Union in general. Not played this game for some time so I don't recall if it addresses these differences properly.

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/1/2016 3:03:40 PM

rmonical

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All HQ are within 20 MP of the rail-head. The fuel deliveries are throttled by some other mechanism. I actually like the feel of this supply system. It seems very realistic to me. Now I just want to understand how it works. Is there any way to improve its performance other than the unreliable JU52s?

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/1/2016 7:16:54 PM

comte

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http://thestrategygamer.com/2015/07/28/war-in-the-east-supply-basics/

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/1/2016 8:16:51 PM

Von Weber

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Fuel and supply dumps. One dump is one ton. But how can I figure out hou much dumps/tons needed to fuel Pz division up to 1 % or motorized division rearm with ammo at 3% . How it could be calculated?

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/1/2016 9:56:11 PM

rmonical

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Thanks for the link. I cannot see where the 1500 tons of fuel freed up by the airbase went. AGN was virtually idle for a week so almost no fuel consumption. However, the depots in the rear were drawn down. When accounting for that 1500 ton disappearance, after a week of idleness, AGN and its rear area depots appear to start the next week with less fuel then it ended the prior week. The two Panzer corps with 50-60% fuel got up to the 90s.

This answers a related question. Apparently resting a week does not allow an army group to build up any fuel in the depots. Last turn ended with about 2000 tons in the depots and this turn starts with about the same with about 800 hundred tons issued.

Where the logistics report says units want 17486 tons of fuel, is that a desire or is that what was delivered? There does not seem to be a delivered line in the report.

< Message edited by rmonical -- 5/1/2016 10:10:46 PM >

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/2/2016 12:31:27 AM

rmonical

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I mentioned this in tech support. Tracking it closely now. It is very very consistent. The first air transport mission with a fresh set of transports uses 145, loses 1. 144 left. After mission, 28 are in reserve, 4 are damaged and 112 are available. Two are lost on the next mission, and 4 more are damaged. 55 are in reserve and 79 are available. After the next mission, 67 are in reserve and 65 are available. The next missions sees 79 in reserve and 49 available. Notice there is still 3000 tons of the original 4600 allocated to the base.

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/2/2016 3:18:20 PM

rmonical

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It is now T8. Back to 6 LW base.
Last turn ended 79 in reserve, 10 damaged, 49 available.
The AI moved 20 to available, left 46 in reserve, and moved 23 to the pool which now sits at 97 JU 52s.
217 are on the map with a capacity of 280 (7).
171 are ready and 46 are in reserve on the map.
The base has plenty of fuel for additional deliveries.
Some bombers are in reserve. It may be related to having flown a supply mission. I flew the 1st Fleigerkorps bombers hard last turn but only a couple are in reserve.

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< Message edited by rmonical -- 5/2/2016 3:20:20 PM >

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/2/2016 4:16:17 PM

rmonical

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So continuing on. After three resupply missions this turn we see:

Active/Reserve/Damage

Start 69/46/0
After one mission: 53/59/3 no losses
After two missions: 41/68/5 one loss
After three missions: 29/78/6 no loss

Is this already on the .09 list? Is there a list? If yes, where?

< Message edited by rmonical -- 5/2/2016 4:18:13 PM >

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/4/2016 12:37:50 PM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical
The questions:

Don't worry, penalties and trucks used are calculated from nearest railhead for HQ supply. Supply city does not change if you haven't moved too far from the first one. It's the city at which supplies for the HQ will be delivered before being moved to the HQ, but the distance from the city to HQ is not affecting deliveries.

There is only one global pool of trucks, they are not assigned to specific cities/depots like in WitW.

Rail is used for moving supplies first, so I think less is available for moving units after that. But it doesn't work the other way round, you can use up all of rail capacity given to you for one phase and it will have no effect on next turn supply delivery.

The supply model is quite simple in WitE, thus the improvements in the next games in the series. It basically works like this:
a) each HQ selects a new supply city (bigger and closer have priority), but it doesn't have to change (unless the old one is no longer valid, because it was captured for example)
b) each HQ finds out what all units assigned to that HQ want (tons of supply and fuel) and adds it up, the total is then registered at the selected supply city
c) each city wants some extra resources if there are factories there, or a port, or assigned AA, plus some little extra based on city size
d) resources produced by off-map cities are dumped into selected on-map locations
e) knowing how much every on-map city wants, the game tries to move resources between cities, taking from those with a surplus, and delivering to those with needs - this costs rail points
f) HQs take resources from their supply city affected by shortage of desired stocks in that city (when less was delivered than required), global vehicle shortage, distance to railhead in hexes and MP (but not to the supply city), and rail modifier (thus not all may end up in the HQ, some will be left in the city, some will be delivered in the second supply phase - but this won't make it to combat units assigned to that HQ) - this uses vehicles from the global pool (some end up damaged or destroyed)
g) units that resupply independently (perhaps they are out of range of their HQ) resupply just like HQs and from the same supply city like their parent HQ (but again, only distance to railhead matters, not to the supply city)
h) units that resupply from their parent HQ use a different set of modifiers, and in this case distance in hexes and MP to the HQ matters (not to the railhead, nor to the supply city), as well as number of vehicles present in the unit itself vs need (but still some vehicles from the global pool may end up damaged or destroyed because of this)
i) assigned AA take directly from the city they are assigned to, with little of the usual penalties applied

Every turn the process starts completely from scratch, with the exception that each HQ remembers its supply city from the previous turn.

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/4/2016 12:43:31 PM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

This answers a related question. Apparently resting a week does not allow an army group to build up any fuel in the depots. Last turn ended with about 2000 tons in the depots and this turn starts with about the same with about 800 hundred tons issued.

Yes, there is no buildup in this sense. Which is bad of course and maybe improved upon in WitE 2.0 thanks to the depot system. WitE 1.0 just tries to fill units to 100% (or up to 200% if you made HQ buildup for them) each turn, by moving the missing part from cities to units via HQs. It doesn't try to build up supplies for future use in either HQs or in the cities. This is partially offset by the fact of unlimited rail capacity. Imagine that system as similar to standard board games, where each turn you just check whether your units are supplied or not, without the concept of stockpiling for the future.

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/4/2016 12:48:48 PM

morvael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmonical

So continuing on. After three resupply missions this turn we see:

Active/Reserve/Damage

Start 69/46/0
After one mission: 53/59/3 no losses
After two missions: 41/68/5 one loss
After three missions: 29/78/6 no loss

Is this already on the .09 list? Is there a list? If yes, where?

What's the problem here? Losses shown in the combat report are those terminal losses (destroyed) really incurred during the flight. Upon landing each plane can be slightly damaged (made reserve), damaged (made damaged) or lost in a crash landing (destroyed) - don't know if these show up in the combat report. Actually before 1.08.08 most transport planes were made damaged after a single flight, I changed this to being made reserve. I don't know why a successful supply flight must end up with a plane being unusable, but at least it's now slightly less unusable. And since those damages where causing a morale loss that's why transport groups were soon down to morale 30.

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/4/2016 5:48:54 PM

rmonical

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quote:

This is partially offset by the fact of unlimited rail capacity.

Ah hah. So we impose a funnel at the end where the inaccuracy is really the unlimited railcap. If we had a railcap model that reflected some of the difficulties the German's had historically, a lot of the other supply feature could fall off. But that might be another game.

IMHO, what you have accomplished with the "feel" of German supply in .08 is fantastic. Even more so now that I understand the tools you have to work with.

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/4/2016 5:52:55 PM

rmonical

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quote:

What's the problem here?

If transport being so much more fragile than bombers is intended, then no problem.
Level Bombers can fly 20-40 sorties and show little damage and nothing in reserve. Maybe their casualties are too low.
The other issues with transports is the high percentage held in the pool compared to other types. The unmet need for transports is much higher than for level bombers.

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/4/2016 9:11:59 PM

morvael

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I think that may have been the idea. Fragility.
Yes, this is special "damage" applied only to transport sorties, not bombing runs. Don't know why the difference.
The system can't replace reserve+damaged unless they are written off as full loss.

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/4/2016 10:00:45 PM

rmonical

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So it is probably a sequencing thing. Back to LW 6 - I did not fly the transports on T8. Recall it had 69 active and 46 in reserve: no damage.
On T9 it starts with 110 active. 41 of the reserve aircraft went active, 5 went to the pool or were written off.
For whatever reason, none of the 90 plus JU52 in the pool were allocate to LW 6. It may be a leader problem - I did not think to look at the range to the leader.
So we hit the magic 3 digit number in the pool with significant shortages in the groups.

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/4/2016 10:16:24 PM

morvael

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I think supply situation affects plane replacements as well (not only ground replacements), so it's better to move air groups to reserve if you want them to be filled faster. With heavy rotation I was able to keep my groups at higher levels, though it means only half was usable at any one time.

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RE: Some questions about the logistics system - 5/4/2016 10:53:24 PM

rmonical

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But they are sitting on the "unlimited" rail net? At what point does it become unlimited? When a marshaling yard becomes a supply source?
Nobody ever traces supply to a random rail hex. Only to a hex (town or more) that has at least a chance at having real cargo capability.

I'll keep playing with this.

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