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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/21/2016 11:55:16 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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100% agree Warspite

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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/22/2016 12:05:23 AM   
warspite1


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2. Vice-Admiral Beatty and the 5th Battle Squadron (5BS) (cont)

So how did Beatty deploy his ships after leaving Rosyth? Well as they headed east to the rendezvous point the three cruiser squadrons were placed in front as a screen. From north to south in a line (with the northern most squadron furthest east) were the 1st, 3rd and 2nd Light Cruiser Squadrons. Several miles behind this screen were the two BCS's and their attendant destroyers. The 1BCS was travelling line astern with the 2BCS on its port bow about two miles north, while the 5BS was some five miles astern between the two battlecruiser lines. HMS Engadine was ahead of the light cruisers.

Andrew Gordon again makes the obvious point. If the Germans were engaged, it was likely to have been from the southeast. On that basis it is difficult to see what the 5BS were doing where they were and in my view is another black mark against Beatty's judgement.


Meanwhile further north by 1130hrs the 2BS sailing from Cromarty, under the command of Vice-Admiral Martyn Jerram, rendezvoused with Jellicoe and the Grand Fleet sailed on in six columns (see below) of 4 ships each toward their appointment with Beatty.

Direction of travel -------------------->
2BS - Erin, Centurion, Ajax, King George V
- Thunderer, Conqueror, Monarch, Orion
3BS - Canada, Superb, Royal Oak, Iron Duke
- Vanguard, Temeraire, Bellepheron, Benbow
4BS - St Vincent, Neptune, Collingwood, Collosus
- Agincourt, Hercules, Revenge, Marlborough

Ahead of this mass of steel, between the battleships and Hood's battlecruisers were the 2nd Cruiser Squadron (2CS) on the port bow - Minotaur, Shannon, Cochrane and Hampshire and the 1CS on the starboard bow - Defence, Warrior, Black Prince and Duke of Edinburgh.

Immediately in front of the battleships were five light cruisers of the 4LCS - Calliope, Constance, Comus, Caroline and Royalist, and four further light cruisers attached - Boadicea, Active, Blanche and Bellona.

Three destroyer flotillas 4th, 11th and 12th, with 46 destroyers provided close support.

The 3BCS (Invincible, Inflexible, Indomitable) commanded by Rear-Admiral Horace Hood, was about 10 miles ahead of the main fleet with the light cruisers Canterbury and Chester and four destroyers.

The message from Room 40 (see Post 55) was received about an hour later. Maybe worth reprinting what was sent:

No definite news of the enemy. They made all preparations for sailing early this morning. It was thought fleet had sailed but all directionals place the flagship in the Jade at 11.10am GMT. Apparently they have been unable to carry out air reconnaissance which has delayed them.

It should be remembered that The Grand Fleet and the BCF had carried out countless patrols and sweeps since the war started - the vast majority without ever even sighting an enemy ship. With the receipt of this signal the British could be forgiven for thinking that this was going to be just another in a long line of disappointments.

It's also worth remembering how Jellicoe would have viewed his intelligence arm (and the reliance he should place on it) when it was found a short while later that the entire German fleet was at sea......


Back to Beatty and by 1330hrs his force had almost reached the position from where they would start to turn north in order to meet up with Jellicoe. In so executing this manoeuvre the 5BS remained five miles distant, although this time to the north west of the battlecruisers (no doubt this would assist in the transfer of the squadron to Jellicoe in due course). The two BCS remained two miles apart with the 2BCS on Lion's starboard side. According to Andrew Gordon the manoeuvre was carried out like a peacetime drill (the earlier intelligence about the German fleet may have played a part here of course) and the cruiser squadrons were no longer in position to provide a proper reconnaissance screen for Beatty's ships.


HMS Iron Duke was the flagship of Admiral John Jellicoe. She was one of only a very few Royal Navy ships that have been named after a soldier from the British Army. She was the lead ship of her class of four dreadnoughts and was completed five months before the outbreak of World War I. She boasted ten 13.5-inch guns mounted in five twin turrets, one amidships. She survived into World War II, ending her days as a floating AA platform in Scapa Flow before being scrapped in 1946.



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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/22/2016 8:09:21 AM   
warspite1


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So what happened to Scheer's U-boat ambush?

Before we look at the German surface fleet's whereabouts at this time, we will look at what happened to the submarine screen's attempts to deplete the Grand Fleet prior to any fleet encounter.

Gary Staff in Skagerrak suggests that the U-boats began attacking on the 30th May "thus revealing their presence" although other sources (including Staff) suggest the British were aware of the U-boat threat and had previously increased countermeasures accordingly. Either way the U-boats efforts were marked by a singular lack of success and Massie (Castles of Steel) is scathing of their lack of contribution. Massie states that Scheer received three reports during the 31st. U-32* reported seeing seeing two dreadnoughts, two cruisers and some destroyers 60 miles east of the Firth of Forth. U-66 reported seeing eight battleships, cruisers and destroyers 60 miles east of Cromarty (this would have been Jerram's 2BS) and, according to Gordon, heading northeast. Finally an intercepted W/T message stated that two dreadnoughts (or groups of dreadnoughts) had left Scapa Flow. Scheer could find no link to these disparate sightings and intercepts. He ignored them and pressed ahead with the operation.

Staff goes into slightly more detail - stating that U-32 launched a torpedo attack before almost being rammed by a British cruiser - Galatea or Phaeton. U-66 tried on three occasions to get off her torpedoes against various targets, but unusually strong countermeasures stopped her from getting any torpedoes away. Staff also states that U-43 made an unsuccessful torpedo attack against a flotilla of destroyers near Scapa Flow and was chased off by subsequent reinforcements.

The various sources seem to indicate that 2 or 3 of the U-boats got the message that the operation had been changed from one along the English east coast, to one off the western Danish coast. However, I cannot see that this lack of information was detrimental to the U-boats cause as the Grand Fleet and other ships would need to leave port regardless of where the German operation was being targeted - and this change has not been given as a reason for their lack of success in either hurting the RN fleets or providing any useful information to Scheer as to what exactly was at sea and when.

*U-32 was commanded by the superbly named Kapitanleutnant Freiherr Spiegel von und zu peckelsheim.


An example of a typical World War I U-boat. This is a U-13-class boat U-14 which was sunk off Scotland in 1915



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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 5/23/2016 9:40:04 PM >


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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/22/2016 12:12:19 PM   
milkweg


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Don't remind me of Jutland, I am so fed up with issues with Stormeagle Studios DRM that I have uninstalled the store client and game and will just put it down to "live and learn" and "never again".

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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/22/2016 4:27:18 PM   
CV60


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Today there is a podcast at 5 PM EST titled "The Battle of Jutland & the Time of the Battleship with Rob Farley" on the CDR Salamander blogsite. See http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/ for details

< Message edited by CV60 -- 5/22/2016 4:31:02 PM >

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Post #: 65
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/22/2016 8:40:48 PM   
warspite1


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So what of the Germans at this time? Where were Hipper and Scheer?

The German fleets left the Jade in the early hours of the 31st May, some hours after the British had put to sea.

First to leave were the Reconniassance Forces, the Aukflarungsgruppen (AG), headed by the IIAG commanded by Rear-Admiral Friedrich Boedicker, and whose four light cruisers (Frankfurt, Elbing, Pillau and Wiesbaden) were fanned out ahead of Hipper's battlecruisers of the IAG in line astern (Lutzow, Derrflinger, Seydlitz, Moltke and Von der Tann). Accompanying these two forces were the 2nd, 6th and 9th Torpedo Boat Flotilla's (the German equivalent of the British destroyer). The eleven torpedo boats of the 9th provided the screen for Hipper's ships and the other nineteen ships were ordered to screen the cruisers.

Some sixty miles behind the Reconnaissance Forces was the High Seas Fleet (HSF) itself. The HSF also sailed in line astern and was led by the eight modern dreadnoughts of the III Battle Squadron (IIIBS) - Konig, Grosser Kurfurst, Kronprinz, Markgraf, Kaiser, Prinzregent Luitpold, Kaiserin and Friedrich der Grosse. The older ships of the IBS followed - Ostfriesland, Thuringen, Helgoland, Oldenburg, Posen, Rheinland, Nassau and Westfalen. Bringing up the rear were the pre-dreadnought battleships of the IIBS - Deutschland, Hessen, Pommern, Hannover, Schlesien and Schleswig-Holstein.

These squadrons were protected by the light cruisers of the IVAG with Stettin sailing ahead, Stuttgart astern of the IIAG and two light cruisers on either flank. The 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th Torpedo Boat Flotillas provided further protection to the fleet.

The plan was that Hipper would make his presence known off the Norwegian coast and, having alerted the British, either destroy what was sent to confront him or, if superior in numbers, lead the enemy to Scheer's battleships racing up from the south.


The flagship of Vice-Admiral Reinhard Scheer: Friedrich der Grosse. She was the second of the five Kaiser-class battleships. Laid down at the start of 1910, she was completed three years later. She featured only one turret forward, with two super-firing aft and two turrets echeloned amidships - giving her a 10-gun broadside. Her end came with the scuttling of the German Fleet at the end of the war.



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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/22/2016 9:09:18 PM   
british exil


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quote:

*U-32 was commanded by the superbly named Kapitanleutnant Freiherr Spiegel von und zu peckelsheim


He was Baron Edgar Freiherr Spiegel von und zu peckelsheim. Died 1965.

Mat

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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/23/2016 9:40:18 PM   
warspite1


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Draft incomplete

The fleets collide

That the two fleets would meet at some point on the 31st May seems pretty likely, but the reason they stumbled upon each other when they did was thanks to a little Danish steamer - the NJ Fjord. The Danish vessel had stopped in the water and was spotted at almost the same time (around 1415hrs) not only by the light cruisers Phaeton and Galatea - the most easterly placed ships of the Battlecruiser Fleet (BCF), but also the German light cruiser Elbing and her three torpedoboat (TB) escorts (B109,B110 and B111) - the most westerly placed ships of the II Aufklarungsgruppe (IIAG).

The two British cruisers went to investigate and the Germans sent the B109 and B110 on a similar mission - both the British and German sailors quickly got sight of much more than they were bargaining on. Upon sighting each other, the TBs and Galatea fired what were the first shots of the Battle of Jutland. Elbing soon provided support to her escorts and quickly found the range, hitting Galatea below the bridge (fortunately for the British the shell did not explode).

The TB's fell back on Elbing and, after the hit on Galatea, the two British cruisers headed northwest while radioing to Beatty on board HMS Lion "Urgent. Have sighted a large amount of smoke as though from a fleet bearing ENE. My position.........". This was received in Iron Duke at 14:35hrs.

To this communication was quickly added "Urgent. Smoke seems to be seven vessels besides destroyers and cruisers. They have turned north. My position........". Iron Duke records receiving this at 14:41hrs.

The Elbing was also busy signalling - although due to an error she actually reported sighting 24-26 battleships according to Jellicoe The Unfinished Battle...

So what was happening elsewhere while this localised cruiser/TB action was taking place?

At the time that the NJ Fjord was writing herself in the history books by being the catalyst for the meeting of the world's two largest battlefleets, Beatty was in a position to make his turn to the north for the rendezvous with Jellicoe (see post 62).

3. The Turn of the 5BS

We now come to our next talking point. Having made the turn to the north, the realisation that the enemy were close by caused Beatty to order his ships to turn SSE. But why did the 5BS wait 5-10 minutes before turning in line with the manoeuvre executed by Beatty? As a result of this, this key squadron was no longer 5 miles behind Beatty - it was 10 miles....

I will use the superb The Rules of the Game to put together a summary of what happened and the part played by the three key individuals; Beatty, Seymour and Evan-Thomas. Obviously no one at the time knew that "there was going to be something wrong with our bloody ships today", but as we now know, the fact that there was, made what happened next incredibly important and was to have a dramatic effect on the outcome of the battle.

So what happened? Remember timings are not necessarily 100% correct and many of the exact details can never be known for certain as records have been lost and/or tampered with and/or some versions of events have been incorrectly told either through genuine mistake or the need to cover mistakes.

- When Galatea first reported contact with the enemy at 1420hrs, Beatty had made the turn north to meet with Jellicoe.
- The 2nd and 3rd LCS "charged to the sound of the guns" in support of Galatea and the three other ships of the 1LCS.
- Beatty now had to decide what to do next
- He stated that he ordered an immediate turn to South South East (SSE) although in fact it took him 5 minutes to order the destroyers to re-deploy around their respective battlecruiser squadrons and then another 7 minutes for the battlecruisers to head on the new SSE course - presumably to cut-off whatever German forces had been found, from their home ports.

With apologies for my 3-year old's diagram......



- Five miles to the northwest, aboard Rear-Admiral Evan-Thomas's flagship Barham, the flags were seen but could not be read. Whether that was because of the wind direction or the increased smoke belching from the funnels as Beatty ordered an increase to 22 knots and preparation for full speed, is not known.
- However, aboard Barham it was taken that the signal was to order a resumption of the zig-zagging that had temporarily ceased when turning north. Accordingly the 5BS moved 2 points north by west.
- Prior to the turn north, HMS Tiger was the battlecruiser closest to Barham. It was her job to relay signals by means of searchlight (a back up in case of problems with the flag signals). However, with the turn Tiger was now the furthest battlecruiser from Barham and assumed that role was no longer hers. No one passed the searchlight message on.....at least not initially.
- The 5BS and the ships of the BCF, initially 5 miles apart, were now sailing away from each other at a rate of knots.
- It is believed that Tiger contacted Lion about the missing searchlight communication, while aboard Barham, Captain Craig and Flag-Commander Egerton tried to point out to the Rear-Admiral that perhaps they should be following Lion once it became apparent that the difference in course was nothing to do with a resumption of the zig-zagging.

So how long did it take for Barham and the 5BS to turn around?

Gordon states that it must have been some time because for Evan-Thomas to be questioned on his own bridge, Captain Craig must have been pretty concerned. Also, if it took Tiger's reminder to Lion about the searchlight, that process in itself would have taken sometime. Taking all the evidence into account, Gordon has calculated an average time of over 7 minutes which equates to a distance from Lion of 10 miles.

Who was at fault for this mis-communication? Beatty, Evan-Thomas or who?

Trying to understand what happened is important if only for the simple reason that the consequences of the breakdown in communication, unprofessional behaviour, being a stickler for procedure [delete to suit your own tastes and thought process] was that Hipper not only got away from the "Run to the south" lightly, but that his battlecruisers destroyed two of Beatty's ships in the process.

1. The case against Beatty

Well I will come out and say it - Beatty is my villain of the peace here. There is a serious unanswered question surrounding Rear-Admiral Evan-Thomas (see below), but all things considered, Beatty just has so much against him - a couple of things we have already touched on:

- The fact he did not feel the need to meet with Evan-Thomas when 5BS joined his fleet
- The shoddy, deployment of 5BS (essentially discounting the very idea that they would meet any Germans) when in cruising formation
- Beatty's first biographer claimed that if 5BS was closer to the BCF then Hipper would not have gone into battle and the British wanted to bring the Germans to battle. As Gordon points out, that would be worth considering if Beatty knew for a fact that he was going to meet Hipper and not Scheer's battlefleet.....
- And other arguments put forward to justify his decisions after the battle are - in some cases at least - pretty outrageous.
- It was Beatty who decided to continue with the unfortunate Seymour (see below). Beatty (totally wrongly) was all for getting rid of the perfectly able Commodore Goodenough after the Scarborough raid, but could not see that Seymour had been largely to blame in December 14, and then again a few months later at Dogger Bank.
- Why did Beatty not use the time - from the initial report by Galatea to the decision to move SSE - to concentrate his forces? He could have done that even after the turn SSE and allowed 5BS to catch-up if not achieved in the 12 minutes before. By taking this course of action the searchlight back-up failure would probably have been noticed sooner. Instead he went charging off into the distance.
- In response to the accusation that he was wrong not to have concentrated his forces Beatty said something to the effect that "why would six British battlecruisers not want to take on five similar German ships. Again this assumes that he knew that Galatea had stumbled across Hipper's reconnaissance forces; of course at that stage he knew no such thing and it could have been Scheer (although in his defence did he believe that Scheer was in the Jade as per the earlier faulty intelligence?).
- Given everything we know about Beatty post-war, could it also be that he simply didn't want the 5BS getting the glory in any trouncing of the German fleet? Such thoughts could explain why his deployment was so shoddy but he can't have it both ways - his deployment was either unprofessional in a time of war (remember this was set out pre the false intelligence on Scheer - and in any case there was no word on Hipper) or he allowed ideas of personal glory to get in the way of doing the right thing.

2. The case against Seymour

- For reasons mentioned above in exchange with Speedy, I don't like to dwell too much on this unfortunate young man. Thanks to Beatty's over-indulgence, at the time of Jutland, Seymour was in a position he had already proven unsuited for. However, despite the tragedy of this man's end, the fact is that for one man to have the accusation levelled at him that he cost the Royal Navy three battles, it is clear that his contribution cannot be glossed over (see post 31).
- All that was required was for the letters EJ (close the flagship) to be flashed to Barham and there would have been no confusion, no cause for delay. But that required someone to have the presence of mind to make such a signal.

3. The case against Evan-Thomas

- The accusation against the Welsh Rear-Admiral is that he was too much of a stickler for the rules and proper procedure. A signals man himself, he would, so the accusation goes, have waited for a properly executed signal to be hoisted, acknowledged, and then lowered (thus making the signal executive) before taking any action, and he would have done this (i.e. nothing) regardless of what other evidence was telling him at the time.
- My first reaction was that this was unfair, and to blame Evan-Thomas is essentially a convenient way to try and absolve Beatty of blame. Whilst there would not have been an issue if Beatty had not done a better commanding officer's job, the delay in 5BS turning does seem excessive and it is intriguing to know what actually took place on the bridge of HMS Barham between 1420hrs and when the order to turn was given.
- Both the Battlecruiser Fleet Standing Orders (BCFO), which Evan-Thomas may be forgiven for not knowing intimately, but also the Grand Fleet Battle Orders (GFBO), which he certainly would, contain wording to the effect that the fleet is to be guided generally by the movements of the commander's squadron.
- Gordon sets out the defensive arguments put by Evan-Thomas and his supporters after the war but I won't repeat them here. Suffice to say that they don't hold up to forensic scrutiny - and in that sense can be seen as similar to many of Beatty's arguments.

It's easy to sit here and criticise with the benefit of hindsight. What we can't know is what exactly was going through the minds (of Beatty and Evan-Thomas in particular) during those fateful minutes following the report from Galatea. We can't know what other distractions were perhaps occupying the mind - in addition to trying to understand incoming reports, interpret them, and then decide what to do as a result.

As we shall see the British were not the only ones to make mistakes (but the British made the most) - in time of war they are only to be expected - and some were more understandable than others. But the above was not an understandable series of errors. This was not 1914, the battlecruiser fleets had engaged previously - the need to expect the unexpected, be clear about who was doing what, the need for signalling procedure to be up to scratch were all lessons that should have been learned by May 1916. But many of the problems encountered earlier were simply being repeated anew.....

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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/26/2016 7:07:47 PM   
warspite1


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Aerial Reconnaissance

So what was HMS Engadine doing at this time? You may recall that she was stationed in the southeastern sector, ahead of the cruiser screen. Shortly after the sighting of enemy vessels by Galatea, Engadine was sent a message from Beatty's flagship HMS Lion informing her that two destroyers were being despatched to accompany her. She was ordered to send aloft a floatplane and, at 1508hrs Flight-Lieutenant Frederick Rutland and Assistant Paymaster GS Trewin (observer) were aloft in their Short Type 184. Sadly for the British this fine example of the RN's technological innovation came to nought when a fuel pipe broke at 1545hrs. Other aircraft could not be launched because of the worsening swell. But the results of the reconnaissance mission were poor in any case. Firstly the weather - with the cloud base at just 1,000 feet - meant that Rutland had to fly very low, and this meant he came in for heavy fire from the cruisers of the II AG. However, in another frustrating episode and another fine example of what can go wrong will go wrong, an even bigger problem came into play. The Germans tried to jam the messages being sent back by Rutland to Engadine. However, three of the four sent were picked up by the seaplane carrier. But the crew of Engadine, sticking to the ban on ship to ship W/T, sent the messages by searchlight - and none of these were picked up by either the BCF or the 5BS.....

Short Type 184. As flown heroically by Frederick Rutland "Rutland of Jutland" which earned him the Distinguished Flying Cross. Sadly his exploits led to nought as the British technological advantage in air power at sea was nullified by faulty operational procedure...




The battlecruisers position for the fight

Hipper's Manoeuvres

The action taken and the timing of this are taken from Gary Staff's Skaggerak.

So with elements of the British 1LCS and the II AG having made contact, what was the reaction of Vice-Admiral Franz Hipper? Hipper received Elbing's report at around 1426hrs. He immediately ordered the I AG to head WSW in order to provide support to the cruisers of the II AG. Eight minutes later Hipper's battlecruisers began going through the motions of preparing the ships for battle and enemy ships started to come into view just a minute later.

The German battlecruisers, led by Lutzow, ploughed on their course until at 1520hrs the unmistakeable sight of enemy capital ships came into view on the port side. The first ships seen were Rear-Admiral William Packenham's 2BCS - New Zealand and Indefatigable. According to one of Lutzow's officers, at around this time too, the Germans could clearly make out British battleships 10 miles behind the battlecruisers i.e. around 25 miles away. The visibility for the Germans was certainly proving to be helpful.

Sadly this section of the book is reminiscent of when I tried to read Soviet Naval Operations in the Great Patriotic War 1941-45. Staff quotes from Krieg Zur See, readily from German sailors (which is useful) and from the writings of the American Commander HH Frost. Staff's own writing and that of Frost seems too biased to be objective - and indeed not as useful as it could be in determining the motives and thinking of Hipper.

There is no need for such exclamations. It seems to me that Hipper's actions at this time appear purposeful, professional, with clarity of thought - and not a little courage. At the point he began ordering fire dispositions for his ships, based on testimony from German sailors and what they could see - he would have been aware that he was outnumbered at that point by five ships to six and thus one enemy ship would have a free hand to fire without being molested herself.

However, at this point I am a little unclear on Hipper's movements - or more accurately, the motivation for his movements. Staff seems to get very excited that Hipper "was happily beginning the battle against a superior enemy on a northerly course" but there is no comment as to why that course of action was chosen. By turning onto a northwesterly course, Hipper was closing the range to Beatty whilst at the same time moving away from his supporting force - Admiral Scheer. At this stage Hipper had no idea whether Jellicoe was at sea and if he was, where was he? It strikes me that Hipper was playing a dangerous game here but also happened to be doing his job. Rather than get excited that he was doing what he was at sea to do, it would perhaps be better to congratulate him for doing it well. The only reason that a turn northwest makes sense here is that Hipper turned to catch Beatty and then began reeling him in with a view to turning south shortly thereafter and leading him straight to the waiting Scheer. This was the reason Hipper and Scheer were at sea after all. I much prefer Massie's measured summary: "...In fact Hipper's intention in swinging around had a larger purpose than to prevent himself from being cut off from his base. He meant to engage the British battlecruisers in a running fight, all the while drawing them down onto onto the High Seas Fleet coming up from the south".

Staff mentions the initial WSW course but when we pick up the action at 1445hrs, the I AG appears to be travelling west and turns on a northwesterly course to support Elbing, Pilau and Frankfurt duelling with the 1LCS. Regensberg and Wiesbaden were on the Starboard of the battlecruisers at this point. As we have seen:
- 1520hrs the enemy came into sight
Then:
- 1530hrs he ordered the cruisers of the II AG to close up
- 1532hrs a reduction in speed to 18 knots was ordered to help facilitate this.
- 1535hrs the order to head SE was made
- 1542hrs the battlecruisers were ordered to deploy with a gap of 500m between each ship
- 1545hrs a slight change in course SSE in order that the battlecruisers could pass throw the danger zone as quickly as possible (the danger zone being the area where the British guns out-ranged those of the German and the British could fire without response from the enemy).

Again - apologies for my simplified map. The II AG is north "behind" the I AG as they head south. The 1, 3 and 2LCS are strung out north to south ahead of the British heavy units - Goodenough's 2LCS in the south is the most important of these.



Beatty's Manoeuvres

We left Beatty having ordered the turn SSE. What is not clear is exactly what Beatty was thinking at this time. Remember Beatty and Hipper were playing a similar - but not the same - game. Hipper had to deliver the ships he could see into the clutches of Scheer. This was at least a pretty straightforward (if not incredibly hazardous) task in that he just needed to make himself the bait that would lure Beatty and Evan-Thomas south. But Beatty's task too was equally hazardous and added an extra layer of complication; he too had to make himself the bait - but not to Hipper as he was not the prize. The prize was Scheer. That said of course, at this time there was no reason for Beatty to think Scheer was at sea....

Beatty states that he was between the I AG and their home bases, but at 1515hrs he made a move in a northeasterly direction (see above). Then at 1525hrs smoke could be seen to the northeast. The differences in what the British and German ships were reporting (see above), with the Germans seemingly having a clearer picture, supports what is generally accepted for the early stages of the battle; that the weather conditions favoured the Germans. As a result Beatty ordered his ships in line astern i.e. the 2BCS were to tack onto the back of the 1BCS. Then at 1545hrs Beatty ordered a turn to the ESE. By this time, as in Hipper's ships, the preparation for battle had been made - here is Gordon's excellent description from Rules of the Game:

....systematically wetting the decks, laying flat tables and stools, lighting action-candles and closing steel doors with all eight clips instead of the usual two. Medical parties were at sick bays and casualty distribution centres, laying out their surgical implements and medical bags, their stretchers, dressings, morpia and syringes. Fire and repair parties were sorting their splinter mats, boxes of sand, soft wood wedges, mallets, shoring up timbers, spare electrical gear etc. On the upper deck, swivel-mounted fittings and guard rail stanchions in the way of gunnery arcs were struck flat; hoses were faked out, turned half-on and left running; extra chain stoppers were fitted to the cables to prevent the anchors being let go by action damage. The glass windscreens on the bridge were unshipped and stowed. Union flags were hoisted at the main, and numerous White Ensigns at yardarms and gaffs. Malaya broke out the ensign of the Federated Malay states which in action, made her look like "an enraged P&O". Barham's mainmast was still sporting the wedding garland of the gunnery-officer's wedding garland.

On HMS New Zealand, Captain John Green ordered the bringing in to the conning tower of a special steering wheel made from indigenous New Zealand wood and inscribed with the Maori war cry "Ake, Ake, Ake, Ka Kaha". A previous captain of HMS New Zealand had been presented by a Maori chieftain with two garments for him to wear in any battle. The chieftain had assured the officer that no harm would come to the grey canoe as long as her captain was wearing them; these were a greenstone pendant and a rush-mat apron to be worn around the waist. At the Battle of Dogger Bank, New Zealand's former captain had worn the garments - and the ship had come through unscathed. The apron did not fit but Green wore the pendant and kept the apron close "ready to put on should things become too hot!".

It was now 1548hrs. On both sides all preparations had been made. Since the four fleets had set sail either side of midnight of the 30th/31st May, the clock had been ticking down, punctuated briefly by the clash of a few cruisers and destroyers. Now the big guns would start talking, and as a result of the coming battle, 9,000 young men would not live to see another sunrise...






Attachment (2)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 5/29/2016 5:19:12 PM >


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Post #: 69
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/26/2016 7:29:04 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I won't be setting out the various arguments here for two reasons:

a) ...
b) the truth can't actually ever be known as much of the evidence has either long since gone or indeed the surviving accounts are contradictory.




as with the rest of the thread great stuff ... but this comment really appeals to me

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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/26/2016 8:41:13 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I won't be setting out the various arguments here for two reasons:

a) ...
b) the truth can't actually ever be known as much of the evidence has either long since gone or indeed the surviving accounts are contradictory.




as with the rest of the thread great stuff ... but this comment really appeals to me
warspite1

I might revise this - and set out some of the blame game arguments (they are truly fascinating - and of course frustrating in equal measure). Simple fact is, its possible to make a plausible case for any of the key players being at fault here. The only person who is defo not guilty is Jellicoe... although certain people would make him guilty for employing Evan-Thomas in the first place.....


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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/26/2016 8:50:11 PM   
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The plot thickens. Will Warspite1 blow away the mists that shrouds the mystery? All will be revealed in the next few posts. Who will be found guilty by Warspite1 and who will be found wanting? Stay tuned and you might find out who ate the last cookie before the battle begun.



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Post #: 72
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/26/2016 8:53:22 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The plot thickens. Will Warspite1 blow away the mists that shrouds the mystery? All will be revealed in the next few posts. Who will be found guilty by Warspite1 and who will be found wanting? Stay tuned and you might find out who ate the last cookie before the battle begun.


warspite1

As Cher would have warbled back in the day "If I could turn back time"...




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Post #: 73
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/26/2016 8:58:34 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The plot thickens. Will Warspite1 blow away the mists that shrouds the mystery? All will be revealed in the next few posts. Who will be found guilty by Warspite1 and who will be found wanting? Stay tuned and you might find out who ate the last cookie before the battle begun.


warspite1

As Cher would have warbled back in the day "If I could turn back time"...


If Cher really could have turned back time, then she would have made that video on the Grand Old Lady instead.


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Post #: 74
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/26/2016 9:01:22 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The plot thickens. Will Warspite1 blow away the mists that shrouds the mystery? All will be revealed in the next few posts. Who will be found guilty by Warspite1 and who will be found wanting? Stay tuned and you might find out who ate the last cookie before the battle begun.


warspite1

As Cher would have warbled back in the day "If I could turn back time"...


If Cher really could have turned back time, then she would have made that video on the Grand Old Lady instead.

warspite1




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Post #: 75
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/26/2016 9:13:10 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

The plot thickens. Will Warspite1 blow away the mists that shrouds the mystery? All will be revealed in the next few posts. Who will be found guilty by Warspite1 and who will be found wanting? Stay tuned and you might find out who ate the last cookie before the battle begun.


warspite1

As Cher would have warbled back in the day "If I could turn back time"...


If Cher really could have turned back time, then she would have made that video on the Grand Old Lady instead.

warspite1




What kind of cookie?

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Post #: 76
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/26/2016 11:07:54 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

...

What kind of cookie?


I'm glad that someone is keeping the focus on the essential part of this thread

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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/28/2016 9:33:32 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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Another UK program is on at 9PM BBC2 tomorrow

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Post #: 78
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/28/2016 9:46:29 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Another UK program is on at 9PM BBC2 tomorrow
warspite1

Record button set again


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Post #: 79
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/28/2016 11:19:25 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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Ditto

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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/28/2016 11:58:02 AM   
warspite1


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What did you think of the last program?

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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/28/2016 6:40:55 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Haven't had time to watch it yet so it's still on my sky box! Any good?

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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/28/2016 9:29:26 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Haven't had time to watch it yet so it's still on my sky box! Any good?
warspite1

Its worth a watch certainly - if only to finally find out what happened to the tragic HMS Indefatigable.

But as with many such programs, it couldn't quite deliver what it promised. If you knew nothing about the battle, I suspect you would come away totally and utterly confused because they made a big thing about finding Harper's original maps - and that the underwater survey proved the maps were accurate.... but gave no clue whatsoever as to what the hell all that actually meant.


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Post #: 83
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/29/2016 11:48:59 AM   
Zorch

 

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"Even Nelson could not have done better at Jutland than my grandfather"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/even-nelson-could-not-have-done-better-at-jutland-than-my-grandf/

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Post #: 84
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/29/2016 12:43:43 PM   
warspite1


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The clash of the battlecruisers

And our next talking point.

4. Why didn't Beatty open fire earlier?

As seen in the tables in posts 25 and 28 and the table below, the British battlecruisers were, ship for ship, markedly superior in terms of size of gun and thus range. This presented Beatty with a huge advantage and Hipper with a potentially fatal disadvantage. But this advantage was not utilsed by Beatty.

Later in the story of the Jutland battle Jellicoe is criticised in some quarters for deploying too close to the enemy. I do not think I have seen that accusation levelled at Beatty (although I may as I read further) but surely he was similarly guilty here? Was there good reason for the 1 and 2 BCS to be steaming separately after Galatea had sighted what was almost certainly the smoke of capital ships? Performing the manoeuvre to bring the two squadrons together and then to turn at a time when the main armament of at least some of the ships should have been opening up, was sub-optimal. I love the description by Derfflinger's gunnery commander Georg von Hase, witnessing this manoeuvre:

How menacing they appeared, magnified 15 times...it was a stimulating, majestic spectacle as the dark-grey giants approached like fate itself. The six ships, which had at first proceeded in two columns, formed one line ahead. Like a herd of prehistoric monsters, they closed on one another, spectre-like, irresistible.

Staff in Skagerrak states:

It was a complicated double manoeuvre which was highly undesirable at such a critical moment and meant that the British ships were still manoeuvring into line when the Germans opened fire at 1548hrs.

With the range closing rapidly - more so thanks to Hipper's 2-point turn, the British guns remained silent. Indeed in echoes of Lindemann/Lutjens at the Battle of the Denmark Strait 25-years later, it was not Beatty who ordered fire to be opened, it was HMS Lion's captain Ernle Chatfield. According to Massie, Castles of Steel, apparently at 20,000 yards Chatfield tried to get a message to Beatty (who was on his own bridge below Chatfield) but the Vice-Admiral was in communication with Jellicoe. Eventually with the range-finders showing 16,000 yards Chatfield felt he could wait no more. The actual range that each ship opened up varies (as does so much of the ship records from the battle on both sides).

The table below gives the maximum range of the various guns fitted to Beatty's and Hipper's ships.


Ship for ship the British had a significant range advantage compared to their German opponents




quote:

Capt. Harlock

IMHO, Nelson's dictum about laying one's ship alongside that of the enemy was still affecting tactics in the Royal Navy. American battleship captains remarked during WWII that their British counterparts always seemed to want to go to "knife-fighting range" rather than stand off. Possibly the idea was that at close range with a flat trajectory, gun elevation did not matter as much; if you missed the hull you could still hit the superstructure. At longer range with a plunging trajectory, correct ranging was essential, and the German optics were generally superior to the British ones.


The sad thing is I don't even think that the latter technical detail was in Beatty's thinking. From everything I have read about the man I think it was more to do with the fact that, for all his bravery, he simply wasn't fit to command a squadron (let alone a fleet). Looking at this dispassionately and giving the man as much credit as possible, how can we sum up his tactical decision making so far (ignoring higher level questions like not firing Seymour, the poor magazine and cordite handling procedures and the poor firing accuracy of the ships under his command)?

- He's gone to sea and deployed the 5BS as though he's on a Sunday afternoon jaunt i.e. he does not expect to find any Germans unexpectedly.
- Let's give him the benefit of the doubt here and assume that he is confident (not unreasonably) that his six better armed and faster BC's can deal with Hipper's five ships. However there is a problem. He doesn't know he's going to find only Hipper and five battlecruisers...
- When the enemy is found he goes charging off. Let's say that the communication problems were not his fault. Okay. But they still happened and suddenly the 5BS in a matter of minutes were 10 miles behind his BCF. There is no urgency for him to go tearing off to the southeast. He does not know at this stage who the enemy is or where he is (apart from what may be the advance screen of a bigger fleet). Why not wait for the 5BS to catch up?
- In fairness to Beatty, maybe he feared that whatever enemy was out there was, even now, running for home and he had to engage as quickly as possible. But if that is true - the folly of his initial disposition of the 5BS is brought sharply into focus.
- In addition, all the testimony from the time seems to confirm that he got unlucky with the weather. In the words of Lutzow's gunnery officer "I could already see with certainty battleships behind the battlecruisers which were at least 26 kilometres distant, evidence of the excellent visability to the west".
- Okay he got unlucky with the weather, and came across the enemy before he had deployed (that was not bad luck - Hipper managed it). So should he have used his speed advantage to keep his distance pending being in position?
- According to Lion's captain he is communicating with Jellicoe (a rare event) at precisely the time his full thought should have been on the battle that is literally about to commence.

So you may well be right Capt. - certainly with the first part of your comment. I think it is likely that he has simply gone off like a bull in a china shop and hasn't thought about tactics (making use of his advantages in numbers, range and speed) other than get in there and start firing as quickly as possible.....

quote:

Zorch

Perhaps...but it may not have mattered if Beatty opened fire earlier because British range finders were less accurate than German ones. This is especially true for the British ships with 9 foot rangefinders. Beatty's ships were badly in need of gunnery practice, too.


It matters if the Germans cannot hit the British and the British are effectively getting free hits. Shooting when under fire is massively different from shooting without such distractions. To that extent it does not matter so much how bad the British shooting is as they are hitting the enemy without reply.

In fairness to Beatty for the moment, maybe (not unreasonably) he wasn't expecting Hipper to want to engage and he thought that if he kept his distance then Hipper would be able to break-off and head home - and Beatty had seen Hipper get away on at least two occasions already. How would history judge Beatty in THAT scenario?

On the 31st May 1916 six battlecruisers of the Battle Cruiser Fleet, commanded by Vice-Admiral David Beatty, came upon five battlecruisers of Vice-Admiral Franz von Hipper's I Aufklarungsgruppe. In a sorry tale of what might have been that would have Lord Horatio Nelson turning in his grave, Beatty inexplicably decided to keep his distance rather than go in for the kill. The canny Hipper (making use of the weather conditions which heavily favoured the Germans) managed to disappear into the gloom.

Churchill sacked Beatty the next day.


Vice-Admiral Franz von Hipper. Hipper's handling of his Aufklarungsgruppen in the opening stages of the battle was text book. His ships met Beatty's fleet fully deployed and he was quick to close the range by turning onto an enemy that out-numbered, out-ranged, out-gunned and could out-run him. He had a job to do - deliver Beatty onto the guns of Admiral Scheer's Hochseeflotte (High Seas Fleet) and Hipper duly delivered his part of the deal.



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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 5/30/2016 2:40:34 PM >


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RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/29/2016 6:45:25 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

4. Why didn't Beatty open fire earlier?

As seen in the tables in posts 25 and 28, the British battlecruisers were, ship for ship, markedly superior in terms of size of gun and thus range. This presented Beatty with a huge advantage and Hipper with a potentially fatal disadvantage.


IMHO, Nelson's dictum about laying one's ship alongside that of the enemy was still affecting tactics in the Royal Navy. American battleship captains remarked during WWII that their British counterparts always seemed to want to go to "knife-fighting range" rather than stand off. Possibly the idea was that at close range with a flat trajectory, gun elevation did not matter as much; if you missed the hull you could still hit the superstructure. At longer range with a plunging trajectory, correct ranging was essential, and the German optics were generally superior to the British ones.

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Post #: 86
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/29/2016 8:01:12 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

4. Why didn't Beatty open fire earlier?

As seen in the tables in posts 25 and 28, the British battlecruisers were, ship for ship, markedly superior in terms of size of gun and thus range. This presented Beatty with a huge advantage and Hipper with a potentially fatal disadvantage.


IMHO, Nelson's dictum about laying one's ship alongside that of the enemy was still affecting tactics in the Royal Navy. American battleship captains remarked during WWII that their British counterparts always seemed to want to go to "knife-fighting range" rather than stand off. Possibly the idea was that at close range with a flat trajectory, gun elevation did not matter as much; if you missed the hull you could still hit the superstructure. At longer range with a plunging trajectory, correct ranging was essential, and the German optics were generally superior to the British ones.

Perhaps...but it may not have mattered if Beatty opened fire earlier because British range finders were less accurate than German ones. This is especially true for the British ships with 9 foot rangefinders. Beatty's ships were badly in need of gunnery practice, too.

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Post #: 87
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/30/2016 11:04:13 AM   
warspite1


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Does anyone know a reliable source for the maximum range of the battlecruisers (and 5BS) ships please? I have set out a table in post 85 but am not sure these are necessarily correct. Different sources quote the 13.5-inch of Queen Mary and Tiger as being either slightly more or slightly less than the similarly gunned Lion and Princess Royal for example. Equally Moltke may not have had the elevation at Jutland that would enable her to fire the same distance as Seydlitz.

Any help would be appreciated. Guns, calibres, elevations and sights are not my specialist subject!

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Post #: 88
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/30/2016 12:37:36 PM   
RedLancer


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Loads of stuff here: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.php#Naval_Guns

By the way my thoughts on Jutland can be summed up by two quotes:

Nelson - England expects.... much was expected from the RN in 1916 and was not delivered. This failure to meet expectation has led to much of the debate.

von Moltke - in the long run luck/fortune favours the efficient/capable (alternate meanings dependent on translation)...the RN were not 'suitably prepared' and throughout the battle luck was not in their favour.

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Post #: 89
RE: A look at The Battle of Jutland 100 years on - 5/30/2016 12:59:00 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

Loads of stuff here: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.php#Naval_Guns

By the way my thoughts on Jutland can be summed up by two quotes:

Nelson - England expects.... much was expected from the RN in 1916 and was not delivered. This failure to meet expectation has led to much of the debate.

von Moltke - in the long run luck/fortune favours the efficient/capable (alternate meanings dependent on translation)...the RN were not 'suitably prepared' and throughout the battle luck was not in their favour.
warspite1

Thanks I'll have a look.

As to the quotes:

quote:

Nelson - England expects.... much was expected from the RN in 1916 and was not delivered. This failure to meet expectation has led to much of the debate.


Well quite, one side has history, tradition, ship nos., speed, weight of broadside, intelligence - you name it, they had it - but then didn't make it count. In any walk of life, in any subject, THAT fact alone is going to raise questions and rightly and understandably so!!

quote:

von Moltke - in the long run luck/fortune favours the efficient/capable (alternate meanings dependent on translation)...the RN were not 'suitably prepared' and throughout the battle luck was not in their favour.


Yes and plenty of similar quotes apply equally. Only thing here though is the idea (held by some) that the British made all the mistakes and the Germans were faultless. The truth is very different - although sadly for over 6,000 RN sailors, the biggest and most costly mistakes were on the British side.

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