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RE: European Championship - 6/19/2016 11:57:50 AM

warspite1

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I perfectly understand how dropping a great player can be 'difficult' for a coach, but I don't understand the idea that "it is not an option".

The coach has a problem with the guy's massive ego? Well dropping him and bringing him down a peg or two can be a pretty useful tool in reducing the size of that ego. If the player has anything about him, he will then have a point to prove to the coach - which can only be a good thing if it means upping his game.

Yes, to drop they guy at this stage of the competition, I agree is not an option as if Portugal fail to qualify the coach will get the blame. But during - and indeed after - a relatively poor qualification I think a warning shot across the bows was needed. If he is playing THAT badly then the coach will have the support of the public too.

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Post #: 121

RE: European Championship - 6/19/2016 12:25:14 PM

Dixie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think Portugal has the same problem that England has. When you get a decent player he is built up so much that he becomes undroppable, unsubstitutable - no matter how bad they may be playing. It then gets into really bizarre territory when those players are picked even when injured or not fully match fit.

It's a real problem - and a real managerial weakness. Even Capello, for all his big talk and big reputation, even he went down the same path.

As far as I can see, as an outsider looking in, the problem for Portugal is slightly less clear cut in that even when playing at less than 100% Ronaldo is still a top quality player (unlike some England players I could mention) and even last night after miss after miss (including the penalty and the disallowed goal) I still thought he was going to grab the winner!!

I think it's down to the teams. Real Madrid are far better than Portugal which means Ronaldo can be Ronaldo and it doesn't matter as much. Someone else will be able to cover somewhat when he has an off game, Portugal don't have the same depth available and when someone is trying to do everything and failing it's more obvious.

Anyway, as much as I like laughing at Ronaldo he's infinitely preferable to the cockwomble that is Pepe.

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Post #: 122

RE: European Championship - 6/19/2016 12:29:40 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I think Portugal has the same problem that England has. When you get a decent player he is built up so much that he becomes undroppable, unsubstitutable - no matter how bad they may be playing. It then gets into really bizarre territory when those players are picked even when injured or not fully match fit.

It's a real problem - and a real managerial weakness. Even Capello, for all his big talk and big reputation, even he went down the same path.

As far as I can see, as an outsider looking in, the problem for Portugal is slightly less clear cut in that even when playing at less than 100% Ronaldo is still a top quality player (unlike some England players I could mention) and even last night after miss after miss (including the penalty and the disallowed goal) I still thought he was going to grab the winner!!

I think it's down to the teams. Real Madrid are far better than Portugal which means Ronaldo can be Ronaldo and it doesn't matter as much. Someone else will be able to cover somewhat when he has an off game, Portugal don't have the same depth available and when someone is trying to do everything and failing it's more obvious.

Anyway, as much as I like laughing at Ronaldo he's infinitely preferable to the cockwomble that is Pepe.

warspite1

Cockwomble? If that is another word for accident-prone, unlikeable, **** then yes, I agree

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Post #: 123

RE: European Championship - 6/19/2016 12:41:22 PM

TulliusDetritus

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It really is complicated, Warspite. The player will not change (he's always been this way), the fans and club owners will not accept him being dropped. On the other hand, a coach banging the table and shouting "I'm the boss here"...

But is life that simple?

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Post #: 124

RE: European Championship - 6/19/2016 1:17:04 PM

british exil

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Ronaldo, despite his ego, handled the photo scene in a very nice way. Most players would have avoided the fan running onto a pitch just for a selfie. I liked the way he took the time and let the fan take the pic, telling the stewards to take things easy, before the fan was shown off the pitch. The stewards of course were only doing their job.

Mat

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Post #: 125

RE: European Championship - 6/19/2016 3:16:23 PM

VPaulus

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I agree with most of all the points brought here. The problem of the Portuguese team is not only Ronaldo and his physical fitness.
We lack a number 9. Until someone comes out, there won't be Ronaldo's in the world that will fix our inefficiency.
A young generation of good players is coming, hopefully a number 9 will come.

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Post #: 126

RE: European Championship - 6/19/2016 4:24:30 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

It really is complicated, Warspite. The player will not change (he's always been this way), the fans and club owners will not accept him being dropped. On the other hand, a coach banging the table and shouting "I'm the boss here"...

But is life that simple?

warspite1

No life is not that simple as I said. I think a strong man-manager could deal with the situation, although would need to be sure its at the right time - and then hope the decision does not re-bound in his face.

Simple? Not at all and for many (most?) the man in question is too powerful. As I said, if Capello was unable to do it to Rooney (and Ericksen with Beckham) it shows how difficult it can be when your job is on the line.

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Post #: 127

RE: European Championship - 6/19/2016 9:54:59 PM

Orm

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Albania.

And it was a deserved win.

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Post #: 128

RE: European Championship - 6/19/2016 10:00:48 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Albania.

And it was a deserved win.

warspite1

And they so nearly got a point against France.......

Still possible they may qualify as one of the best 3rd placed teams - although I suspect there will be some with 4 points so......

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Post #: 129

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 7:02:33 PM

warspite1

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Six changes tonight. Can easily make a case for replacing all six (Sterling and possibly Kane because of form - the others to give them a rest for the next round) but all six together?

Given England's penchant for mucking up and thus getting a worse draw in the knockout stages than would otherwise be the case, that is a big risk Roy.......

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Post #: 130

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 7:08:19 PM

Orm

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I wonder why England demand the team to make it to the semi finals. Or is it only the press?

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Post #: 131

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 7:10:01 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Six changes tonight. Can easily make a case for replacing all six (Sterling and possibly Kane because of form - the others to give them a rest for the next round) but all six together?

Given England's penchant for mucking up and thus getting a worse draw in the knockout stages than would otherwise be the case, that is a big risk Roy.......

I assume that Roy think he must take risks if he wants to continue with this job. If the team does not make it to the semis then he can begin looking for a new job.

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Post #: 132

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 7:14:49 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I wonder why England demand the team to make it to the semi finals. Or is it only the press?

warspite1

Not sure what you are reading there Orm - was it the Dyke comment? I saw an article in the paper this morning in response to a totally lame-brain comment from Greg Dyke about reaching the semis or a gallant loss in the quarter's

Makes you wonder really....

Long gone (thankfully) are the days when we'd go into every tournament (that we actually qualified for) thinking we would win it. However I think the (not unrealistic) expectation is that we need to be making progress. But it never happens. Essentially we muck up the group stages, making life harder than it should be, and then lose to the first half decent team we play. I mean seriously, when was the last time England a) actually beat someone (anyone) comfortably in a tournament? or b) beat a better ranked team (or acknowledged to be better) than us?

Every tournament the same - except Brazil where we were even worse than usual.....

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/20/2016 7:18:20 PM >

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Post #: 133

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 7:19:38 PM

Orm

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Swedish media have had a field day with that comment about the semis. I assume it was Greg Dyke since you mention him but I do not recall the source.

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Post #: 134

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 7:20:29 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Every tournament the same - except Brazil where we were even worse than usual.....

Well, you are always better than Sweden. With a few exceptions.

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Post #: 135

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 7:22:47 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Every tournament the same - except Brazil where we were even worse than usual.....

Well, you are always better than Sweden. With a few exceptions.

warspite1

Actually that is not true. If Sweden had won her World Cup (unlucky for them to come across Brazil) and not come runners-up, Sweden's record in the World Cup would actually be better than England's.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Post #: 136

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 7:24:50 PM

Orm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Every tournament the same - except Brazil where we were even worse than usual.....

Well, you are always better than Sweden. With a few exceptions.

warspite1

Actually that is not true. If Sweden had won her World Cup (unlucky for them to come across Brazil) and not come runners-up, Sweden's record in the World Cup would actually be better than England's.

It feels true.

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Post #: 137

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 8:38:25 PM

Orm

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Looking good for Wales.

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Post #: 138

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 8:52:02 PM

Dixie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Six changes tonight. Can easily make a case for replacing all six (Sterling and possibly Kane because of form - the others to give them a rest for the next round) but all six together?

Given England's penchant for mucking up and thus getting a worse draw in the knockout stages than would otherwise be the case, that is a big risk Roy.......

What was the question for the answer to be "Jordan Henderson"? He has never had a good game for England, at best he's been acceptable and entirely forgetable, tonight is no exception apart from several over hit passes. Bertrand could easily have got himself sent off as well.

Clyne has done well tonight though and Lallana too (although he's probably worn himself out).

Plus ca change. Same old England.

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Post #: 139

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 10:08:58 PM

warspite1

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Well quelle surprise...... another tournament, another opponent we should be beating and....... it never gets any better does it?

Why do England footballers not understand that playing the ball forward, quickly, with precision, behind the defence is what causes defences to crumble? We did that a few times in the first half, maybe once in the second... and that's it. Why?

Speaking of why, Why was Vardy taken off at half time and not replaced? Why was the knackered Kane brought on and not Rashford? Why Henderson indeed? Mind you, Wilshire and Rooney were pretty awful too.

On the positives, we can't score but we dominated the game, Eric Dier looks a better player with every game, Clynne was industrious down the right and Sturridge looked good before he tired. I'm now struggling....

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Post #: 140

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 10:10:23 PM

warspite1

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Well done to Wales, well deserved - top man Gareth Bale

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Post #: 141

RE: European Championship - 6/20/2016 10:19:42 PM

Franciscus

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Congratulations to England and specially Wales !!

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Post #: 142

RE: European Championship - 6/21/2016 1:10:48 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Not really appropiate. Apologies.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 6/21/2016 1:26:44 PM >

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Post #: 143

RE: European Championship - 6/21/2016 4:30:54 PM

terje439

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I'm now struggling....

My worst fear now is that Portugal finishes 2nd in their group...England - Portugal...Well, history teaches us how to place that bet unfortunately.

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Post #: 144

RE: European Championship - 6/21/2016 5:04:08 PM

VPaulus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I'm now struggling....

My worst fear now is that Portugal finishes 2nd in their group...England - Portugal...Well, history teaches us how to place that bet unfortunately.

England beat us on the 66' World Cup semi-final.
I think think they can beat us again. So my fear is exactly like yours... I hope Portugal finish in first and avoid England.

< Message edited by VPaulus -- 6/21/2016 5:08:50 PM >

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Post #: 145

RE: European Championship - 6/21/2016 5:30:20 PM

Dixie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well quelle surprise...... another tournament, another opponent we should be beating and....... it never gets any better does it?

Why do England footballers not understand that playing the ball forward, quickly, with precision, behind the defence is what causes defences to crumble? We did that a few times in the first half, maybe once in the second... and that's it. Why?

Speaking of why, Why was Vardy taken off at half time and not replaced? Why was the knackered Kane brought on and not Rashford? Why Henderson indeed? Mind you, Wilshire and Rooney were pretty awful too.

On the positives, we can't score but we dominated the game, Eric Dier looks a better player with every game, Clynne was industrious down the right and Sturridge looked good before he tired. I'm now struggling....

Bad Things...

First up, because they lack the composure that is needed. I never feel confident when Ebgland go into half time at 0-0. If they haven't already scored by that point then panic seems to set in and we're treated to lots of sideways passing as no-one takes the lead followed by 30 yard shots into a mass of defenders as someone eventually tries to be a hero.

Why was Vardy taken off? Because he fluffed his one chance at getting a goal. He shouldn't have started IMO, he's better from the bench against a side who aren't looking to defend.
Why was Kane brought on? I suspect because he's more experienced than Rashford.
Why Henderson? I do not know. I can understand Wilshere as he's been ever present for the qualifying campaign. But Henderson has never had a good game for England. He's a 6/10 player, at his absolute best he's competent. But I wouldn't trust him to pass the salt at the dinner table.

Wilshere was pants. Get ball. Run at defenders. Lose ball. Repeat to fade.
Rooney. Is. Not. A. Midfielder. Passing the ball sideways to Danny Rose to do something with does not a midfielder make. It's not his fault I guess, people are desperate for him to be shoehorned into the side somewhere. But if he has a bad game it's Roy's fault for not dropping him. If he doesn't play and we lose then it's Roy's fault that we're missing his leadership.

Jordan Henderson. Again. So bad. It's actually reached the point that I'm feeling sorry for Mark Noble. Like Henderson he's also an average midfielder for a decentish Premier League team. But he's never had the chance to be pish for England.

More Questions...

Why do people keep talking about the quality forwards we've got in the team when they've managed three goals?
Why does the England team still cause me feelings of frustration?

Good Things...

Clyne was good, but it wasn't that long ago that he was first choice RB was it? But he's good competition for Rose so that's positive.
Eric Dier has been good. A few too many long range shots into the sea of bodies at times, but he's played some actual good long range passes. Maybe a side effect of spending time at a foreign academy?
Joe Hart didn't drop a bollock this time. So that's an improvement.
The red kit looked alright.
John Stones hasn't got onto the pitch.

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Post #: 146

RE: European Championship - 6/21/2016 6:04:11 PM

warspite1

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quote:

Why was Vardy taken off?

He wasn't taken off. The fact that you believed me merely proves that he was non-existent in the second-half

quote:

Why was Kane brought on? I suspect because he's more experienced than Rashford.

True - but he's also totally cream crackered

quote:

Why does the England team still cause me feelings of frustration?

Because its football? Its our national game? Its important!? I am looking at Germany now and the difference in passing, movement, ideas and....everything is just incredible.....

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Post #: 147

RE: European Championship - 6/21/2016 6:53:32 PM

warspite1

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NORTHERN IRELAND! Fingers crossed now

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Post #: 148

RE: European Championship - 6/21/2016 7:37:29 PM

RichMunn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Congratulations to England and specially Wales !!

I am 62 and that was the best Wales performance I have ever seen by a street. Russia were terrible but they were put to the sword.

England should score so many more goals than they do. But teams will be frightened by our world-class player Bale and his 2 or 3 very good quality team-mates, especially Aaron Ramsey, more than they will be frightened by Hodgson's inconsistent and uncertain England. (My view is that England have no world class players, but many very good ones).

Coleman has a team which has a great spirit and if it plays without fear (which it did not against England) no little pace and skill.

And now it has to be "play to win".