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Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck?

 
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Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 5:47:16 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 220
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline 		Just to provide a topic for some lively discussion.

TRUE grognards will have noted the obscure reference in my question. In a decades old issue of the GENERAL, there was a Third Reich article that, iirc, started with the words: "France is fated to fall." The Fall of France is no one´s fault in particular, it´s simply a 3rd Reich feature. Perhaps a horrible AI opponent is simply a computer wargame feature?
Post #: 1
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 5:54:21 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Thankfully I must be useless at wargames and on the whole the AI suits me fine.



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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 5:59:33 PM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		neither am i the greatest gamer either so AI for me is fine in most game, not had many that i won hands down unless i selected easy that is, so agree with Wodin, AI is fine for me

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 6:07:22 PM   
sIg3b


Posts: 220
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline 		Seriously? I´d say Wargames where the AI is remotely competitive without being given obscene material advantage can be counted on one hand.

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 6:39:56 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		The problem is that an AI can only do what it is PROGRAMED for and no programmer can anticipate everything a live person would do in a free form game. Most AI are good enough for me since I am no genius though with ATG I know I will eventually win no matter what.

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 7:11:31 PM   
wings7


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From: Phoenix, Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

Seriously? I´d say Wargames where the AI is remotely competitive without being given obscene material advantage can be counted on one hand.



I would be in the same boat as wodin & zak ...what are the ones that you can count on one hand?

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 7:29:42 PM   
lecrop


Posts: 412
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Status: offline 		I hope wargame's AI never surpass human capabilities. The day Kasparov lost vs Deep Blue chess was over for me...

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 7:46:27 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

Seriously? I´d say Wargames where the AI is remotely competitive without being given obscene material advantage can be counted on one hand.



the issue is not the AI - which is inevitably going to be limited - but how you set up the game ... and your goals. If I am playing a civ style game I don't really care about the AI, I play them for a bit of relatively mindless fun. Other games, I find if I hamper the human side (using set up options) to something close to realistic constraints then the AI will give me a real challenge. If I understand a particular game, and play on even settings - of course I am going to beat most AIs.

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 7:58:16 PM   
sullafelix

 

Posts: 1520
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		The biggest question is how are you playing?

Are you playing historically or are you just trying to game the rules and system?

Are you also playing the game constantly for hours and even days at a time?

These are all important questions. If you play historically and do not do something that would be not done at the time I see that as helping the AI.

If you are wearing your mouse out playing the same game, then switch it out.

I read about 10-15 books a week, not the whole book but whatever interests me at the time. I do the same with games. I go from age to age and battle to battle every week. This means that I do not become used to the AI and any of it's quirks.

I remember in chess club that most players also used exactly the same games over and over and they were humans. I have seen human players in board wargames make horrendously foolish moves. So to me at least the AIs at time mimic those.

I don't usually get killed by AIs,of course there are some that can, but I can expect to get a run for my money in most games. The again I just play them. I am not trying to make a wargame into an IQ test.

So to me, it all comes down to your playing style.



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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 8:07:04 PM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline 		Food for thought...especially liked
quote:


I read about 10-15 books a week, not the whole book but whatever interests me at the time. I do the same with games. I go from age to age and battle to battle every week. This means that I do not become used to the AI and any of it's quirks.



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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 9:07:26 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

Food for thought...especially liked
quote:


I read about 10-15 books a week, not the whole book but whatever interests me at the time. I do the same with games. I go from age to age and battle to battle every week. This means that I do not become used to the AI and any of it's quirks.




The original subject line sounds so, well, Steam-ish.

I read books through to the end, but with games I follow the same procedure. I don't stay stuck on one game for a long period. Nothing wrong with that. Just my preference. I rotate back and forth between favorite games, and I typically don't play on a deep level, trying to get every advantage I can out of the system. That makes the AI more challenging to me. Again, that is just my preference. There are so many different ways that people play these games that it would seem very hard to create an AI that satisfies everyone. Right now I'm playing Barbarossa, coming back to it after playing other games for quite a while. I never seem to do well at Barbarossa. But I still enjoy it.

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 9:42:21 PM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
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From: The Divided Nations of Earth
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The problem is that an AI can only do what it is PROGRAMED for and no programmer can anticipate everything a live person would do in a free form game. Most AI are good enough for me since I am no genius though with ATG I know I will eventually win no matter what.


This pretty much sums it up. Although I have a devil of a time playing against the AI in ATG. Probably more to do with my own ineptitude at strategy games though.

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 10:12:44 PM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		I don't think I've ever won any game on "normal" the first time. No surprise there

But yes, one solution is to jump from game to game, never really learning it. That's my style. In fact, after two days, I am ready to move on from HOI IV

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/11/2016 10:35:22 PM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JW


quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

Food for thought...especially liked
quote:


I read about 10-15 books a week, not the whole book but whatever interests me at the time. I do the same with games. I go from age to age and battle to battle every week. This means that I do not become used to the AI and any of it's quirks.




The original subject line sounds so, well, Steam-ish.

I read books through to the end, but with games I follow the same procedure. I don't stay stuck on one game for a long period. Nothing wrong with that. Just my preference. I rotate back and forth between favorite games, and I typically don't play on a deep level, trying to get every advantage I can out of the system. That makes the AI more challenging to me. Again, that is just my preference. There are so many different ways that people play these games that it would seem very hard to create an AI that satisfies everyone. Right now I'm playing Barbarossa, coming back to it after playing other games for quite a while. I never seem to do well at Barbarossa. But I still enjoy it.


I like your game procedure, you can experience & enjoy many more games that way, especially when you have alot of games to play.

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 5:29:29 AM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline 		This is the state of software at present. Maybe way down the road excellent AI's will be the norm, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it to happen in my lifetime.


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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 9:43:04 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I suspect that the cost to create a good AI is to high compared to the profit they will get from making the AI.

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 11:27:47 AM   
Mobeer


Posts: 662
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Not "fated to suck", but not as good as they could be:
- focussing on selling multi-player makes spending on AI less valuable
- AI doesn't seem to be a feature that can be used in marketing
- AI seems to be tacked on at the end of development

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Post #: 17
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 11:33:45 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

Seriously? I´d say Wargames where the AI is remotely competitive without being given obscene material advantage can be counted on one hand.



I would be in the same boat as wodin & zak ...
warspite1

Me too I don't have a problem with most AI because I'm crap at wargames.


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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 11:43:33 AM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		Very good thread. For me, the AI is fine. I never get good enough at the games to always win.

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 12:31:40 PM   
MrsWargamer


Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline 		Hard to say.

Some aspects of common military operations are so hard to design for the AI that they leave gaping holes in a credible AI opponent. And once the human realizes the shortfall on the part of the AI, it tend to break the game. Because the AI will continue to fail in this area to the detriment of the challenge. I've seen games where the human makes known the shortfall and there after everyone just abuses the heck out of the weakness.

I find playing most battles in Battle Academy are fairly even as the human will not have encountered the variables. Once you have played the battle a couple of times, there's no surprises. Thus the longevity of the game played solo is fairly finite. If you play the game frequently solo in a short time you exhaust it's potential for newness fairly quickly. The game thus really shines more against a human adversary. Games with a random generator feature can usually extend this for a time.

I'm usually surprised when a game defeats me. Be it Civ or a fantasy setting like Heroes of Might and Magic, or conventional war games like Steel Panthers or grand strategy designs. Although in recent times my competitive edge has eroded with age. I'm not the adversary I used to be 10 years ago.

My closing comment is I don't think much of war game AIs.

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Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 1:29:31 PM   
Ostwindflak


Posts: 668
Joined: 1/23/2014
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I've solved it, we should all sell our computers and virtual games and go back to board gaming. Especially the big board war games. You're welcome.

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 1:31:24 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I've solved it, we should all sell our computers and virtual games and go back to board gaming. Especially the big board war games. You're welcome.


But then you can't use those Vassal modules :)

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 1:38:11 PM   
MrsWargamer


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Joined: 6/18/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I've solved it, we should all sell our computers and virtual games and go back to board gaming. Especially the big board war games. You're welcome.


I wish they would actually.

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Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

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Post #: 23
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 1:48:36 PM   
Ostwindflak


Posts: 668
Joined: 1/23/2014
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Vassal is a good tool, but not all games can be found on it which is a shame.

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 1:49:21 PM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I've solved it, we should all sell our computers and virtual games and go back to board gaming. Especially the big board war games. You're welcome.


We definitely need to play more board war games! I'd still keep my computer...

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 1:51:49 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I've solved it, we should all sell our computers and virtual games and go back to board gaming. Especially the big board war games. You're welcome.


We definitely need to play more board war games! I'd still keep my computer...
warspite1

If I had the room in the house, if I had the time to devote, and if I had access to other human players, I would play the board version of World In Flames. However I don't. That is why computer versions of this type of game is such a godsend.


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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 1:57:03 PM   
Ostwindflak


Posts: 668
Joined: 1/23/2014
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		You could always rent out a climate controlled storage unit Warspite1 and set up there.

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 2:00:14 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

You could always rent out a climate controlled storage unit Warspite1 and set up there.
warspite1

Well yes, but all you have done is provided me with an answer for one problem (a lack of space) with the addition of another one (lack of spondoolicks). Furthermore, the other two problems - time and opponents - remains firmly in the obstacle dept.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/12/2016 2:02:31 PM >

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RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 2:01:24 PM   
lecrop


Posts: 412
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		There are some excellente solitaire board wargames, like Silent War or RAF...

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Post #: 29
RE: Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck? - 6/12/2016 2:04:36 PM   
Ostwindflak


Posts: 668
Joined: 1/23/2014
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I concede your point Warspite1, I can't provide time to you. However if we were able to get some dedicated people, I could be persuaded to make a week long trip to England for a WiF or other game session. Providing of course we dedicate at least one night at the Highland Inn & Hotel Whiskey Bar. I have always wanted to visit that place!


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