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Of Interest to ASL fans - 4/13/2003 12:50:37 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Was out on a walk about wandering the net today and found this while prowling about.

http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

Possible actual computer ASL?

I have not examined it yet, but you can look for yourself as well eh.

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Post #: 1
- 4/13/2003 10:34:20 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		This makes me very happy!

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"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

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Post #: 2
- 4/13/2003 11:17:47 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Me too! I actually got a lump in my throat when I zoomed in on the first image. :D

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- Stonewall Jackson

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Post #: 3
- 4/13/2003 10:10:01 PM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		Me too! My laptop popped off my lap! :)

_____________________________

"Money doesnt talk, it swears. Obscenities, who really cares?" -Bob Dylan

"Habit is the balast that chains a dog to it's vomit." -Samuel Becket

"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 4
- 4/14/2003 5:17:07 AM   
Cheeks

 

Posts: 157
Joined: 8/31/2002
From: Ohio Valley
Status: offline 		NOW HEAR THIS:

Has anyone tried this out yet?

THAT IS ALL:

Cheeks

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Post #: 5
- 4/14/2003 5:27:26 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Having trouble running it at the moment, but no surprise there, I am hardly a computer genuis.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 6
Re: Of Interest to ASL fans - 4/14/2003 6:51:58 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Was out on a walk about wandering the net today and found this while prowling about.

http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

Possible actual computer ASL?

I have not examined it yet, but you can look for yourself as well eh. [/B][/QUOTE]

You should not promote illegally made games.

Doing so just sets the hobby back further.

You can't just copy whatever you want to freely.

ASL belongs to Hasbro, is licensed to MMP and beyond that you need their permission for whatever you do whether you charge for it or not.

One day MMP will wake up and sue the %#&* out of guys like this.

And it may be sooner than you think.

_____________________________


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Post #: 7
- 4/14/2003 7:45:03 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Veldor I have no idea what this program is let alone the legalities.

But to accuse me of malicious behaviour won't wash with anyone that knows me well enough.

If you want proof of my feelings with respects to people that do the hobby a disservice, visit this old thread of mine.

http://www.wargamer.com/forum/wargamer/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=208

Or this one.

http://www.wargamer.com/forum/wargamer/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44

If it turns out this program has over stepped any boundaries, then I will not support it in any fashion.

But be advised, VASL

http://www.vasl.org/

is also not made by Hasbro or MMP and you can find VASL openly linked on MMP's own web site.

This program might be entirely harmless, and it might even be accepted (this I can't confirm at this time).

I should point out though Veldor, you are currently advocating computerising Up Front. I support you efforts, but do you have permission? That game belongs to Hasbro as well.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 8
- 4/14/2003 8:11:42 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Veldor I have no idea what this program is let alone the legalities.[/B][/QUOTE]

All the more reason why you shouldn't promote it until you do.

[QUOTE][B]But to accuse me of malicious behaviour won't wash with anyone that knows me well enough.[/B][/QUOTE]

Didn't accuse you of anything. Simply stated you should not promote it.

[QUOTE][B]This program might be entirely harmless, and it might even be accepted (this I can't confirm at this time).[/B][/QUOTE]

No, a game that lets me play ASL for the most part without buying the boardgame is NOT harmless. Even if it did require me to buy the components its NOT harmless. And both of those issues aside it is HARMFUL to any possible actual Commercial PC ASL product. (Though MMP has royaly screwed up on controlling this aspect already).

[QUOTE][B]I should point out though Veldor, you are currently advocating computerising Up Front. I support you efforts, but do you have permission? That game belongs to Hasbro as well. [/B][/QUOTE]

Of course I do! MMP's lawyers are working on that issue and other related issues to PC development of their products as we speak.

MMP would be smart to realize (and I think they have recently started to) the great loss on both fronts PC adaptations are bringing them. Less sales of the board game versions and NO profitability for the PC adaptations and LESSENED ability to develop their own or enter an arrangement with a developer and publisher, etc.

If we ignore ASL for a moment and look at Up Front, which you mentioned. For MMP to openely support all the various poor but "freebie" adaptations of Up Front already out there is highly counter productive to enticing a developer (myself) and even more so a publisher to work on a commercial product...

As we speak someone else is working on an adaptation of Up Front based on VASSAL and though poor again and lacking many many features... It is without MMP's permission as far as I know.. and either way really pisses me off.

Copyrights need to be respected, in all ways.

_____________________________


(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 9
Re: Re: Of Interest to ASL fans - 4/14/2003 8:26:17 PM   
Cheeks

 

Posts: 157
Joined: 8/31/2002
From: Ohio Valley
Status: offline 		NOW HEAR THIS:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]You should not promote illegally made games.

Doing so just sets the hobby back further.

You can't just copy whatever you want to freely.

ASL belongs to Hasbro, is licensed to MMP and beyond that you need their permission for whatever you do whether you charge for it or not.

One day MMP will wake up and sue the %#&* out of guys like this.

And it may be sooner than you think. [/B][/QUOTE]

Lars (the coder of the program) has provided an FAQ to this program. There are two (2) facts stated that scream ASL board game protection:

Q: What else do I need?
A: You need get the "ASL rules" and "Beyond Valor", both in 2nd Edition. The first since JASL do not include any rules at all. The later to get the boards and counters. They can be ordered from Multiman Publishing here.

Q: There are references to linking to a HTML version of the rules - can you send me a copy of it?
A: No. It is not mine to give away.

Clearly, he states you need to purchase the products to understand / appreciate / enjoy this program which intends to only simulate an opponent. Unless you play ASL, you have NO idea what it is like to find a Face to Face opponent.

Veldor, do you subscribe to the ASL email-newsgroup? This is a service provided by Multi-Man Publishing (current & BEST producer of ASL products). Lars is a respected AND contributing member of the forum and has posted updates concerning JASL for nearly a year or more. I might add that the owner of MMP (Curt Shilling [sp?]) and other employees of MMP show up daily on the list. MMP is known for adhering quite vigorously to all copyright / Hasbro issues dealing with ASL and they informed of JASL. MMP has paid for the licensing and ALL ASL players know if MMP doesn't turn a profit, there will be no ASL.

I believe what MMP has in mind is to expand ASL by experiencing play. ASL is a highly complexed face to face boardgame and can only grow if new people (who might be intimidated by VASL [another post in it's self] ) can get a taste of the ASL appeal.

I read your post to Les. I think I know Les enough to say that what you implied / accused / insinuated him of doing is ... well ... way off base. That is not Les, and I think your interpretation of his post was not as he intended.

Semper Fi (too ASL)

THAT IS ALL:

Cheeks

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Post #: 10
- 4/14/2003 8:43:44 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Ok first off answer with yes or no.

Yes you have formally asked permission of MMP directly to produce a computer version of Up front.

Or no you have not.

Just want that to be crystal clear.

Yep I know of the other variations on computer Up Front. Recently deleted the files, as it looked to archaic/convoluted to interest me (very hard to interest me when I own the real thing, and finding opponents for real Up Front is actually rather simple).

Regarding ASL on the computer.

Hmm I know VASL is being supported. Seeing the link on MMP's page makes that plainly obvious.
If someone is doing an Up Front adaption, then I suppose it will be part first come first served, as well as part let the best design win. If you make the better program, I will of course want yours.

Regarding lame versions of ASL on computer. Well like I said, I am not privvy to the private matters of others.
I don't routinely presume a person is guilty merely because they don't make a big show of proving their are not.

We don't routinely employ guilty until proven otherwise in Canada at least. If MMP and the owners of ASL don't like that attitude, well that's their problem not mine.

Yesterday I emailed MMP actually. I sent them an email expressing my concerns for how actual ASL is being marketed.
They have no online forum worthy of comment (mentioning Consimworld is the same as saying they just don't care).
I remarked that currently Lock and Load, a nice game that could easily rival ASL in a few years, is providing a free demo. Yep demo of a board game is exactly what I said.

Check it out.

http://www.locknloadgame.com/

I am not saying their game is better than ASL, but some day it might be equal. And it might be the single biggest threat to credible new player sales. Because it doesn't cost near 200 bucks (Canadian) to get the initial purchase like ASL does.
ASL is the only wargame on the market, where it is assumed you will drop 100 bucks (Canadian) just for the rules.

I made my point, that the game needs an official downloadable demo to make it realistic to promote the game. A demo would be an edited rules manual (free of any clutter not required), a minimum of two half size boards (so it can show the interconnectable nature of the boards), a basic set of misc counters, and a basic set of forces, and perhaps 1-3 scenarios.
I firmly believe, that ASL is currently only being sold to total hard core gamers only. It has zero appeal to the novice or new to wargaming player.

Frankly I could care less if computer ASL (actual full blown ASL on the computer) ever gets made in a modern software sense of the word.
I think it is neat that VASL has allowed me to play a number of other board games. I am also wondering why they are not selling VASL.
As we speak, I am contemplating buying Aide De Camp.

http://www.hpssims.com/pages/products/adc2/ADC2-Main.html

At 50 bucks approximate, I consider it a bargain if it lets me finally play my 5.5'x5' board game The Longest Day through the convenience of my computer. Setting that game up is a major task.
I also am hoping for an easy out for my GDW Europa series games.

In the final analysis, I will feel no remorse promoting anyone's site if they are promoting a game.
I won't promote Peer to Peer opportunities of course. Everyone already knows, that P2P software is about exchanging unpaid for product.
But if a person wishes to publicly and openly place something on the web, in plain view, I will let the owners deal with it, if there is a matter of law at stake. I won't presume guilt arbitrarily when I have no justification to support it.

Is JASL illegal? I have no idea. Does it even work? Again I still have no idea. Is it worth it even if it does? I still have no idea. Is MMP aware of it? Yep you guessed it, no idea.

If you want to ask MMP about it, be my guest. If you can show me they don't, and would like us to refrain, I will be happy.

Did you read the threads at those links Veldor?

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 11
- 4/14/2003 9:20:20 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Guess Cheeks post got in under the wire ahead of me, or some of my previous post would have reflected his comments.

Clearly JASL is not an unknown to MMP and I am therefore not worried at mentioning it's existence.

And I still have not figured it out. But I didn't wake up more computer smart this morning either :)

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 12
- 4/14/2003 10:28:21 PM   
AlvinS

 

Posts: 665
Joined: 12/2/2000
From: O'Fallon, Missouri
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Clearly JASL is not an unknown to MMP and I am therefore not worried at mentioning it's existence.

And I still have not figured it out. But I didn't wake up more computer smart this morning either [/QUOTE]

Les

I had trouble with it at first, because the .jar file threw me. The .jar file is an executable. double click on jasl6.jar and it should work. I am running WIN 98SE.


I am currently looking to purchase ASL instructions and recommended starter modules from MMP. The ASL base manual is out of print at the moment.

On the Web site for JASL he does recognize Hasbro, Avalon Hill, MMP, and VASL.

_____________________________

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." ---Mark Twain

Naval Warfare Simulations

AlvinS

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Post #: 13
- 4/14/2003 11:31:53 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		ASL Rule Book 2nd edition being out of print already is a curious thing eh.

Makes ya wonder how many sales were made, how many were to old fans wanting new edition and how many were new ASL players.

I have not actually gotten off my butt all that fast to try it in Win XP and Win 98SE as yet either.

There is some documentation but I have not gotten around to reading it either.

Actually my threads original purpose was to see if some of my more capable friends would actually beat me to the punch and comment as you have done Alvin hehe.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 14
- 4/14/2003 11:56:00 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Ok first off answer with yes or no.

Yes you have formally asked permission of MMP directly to produce a computer version of Up front.[/B][/QUOTE]

YES

[QUOTE][B]Frankly I could care less if computer ASL (actual full blown ASL on the computer) ever gets made in a modern software sense of the word.
I think it is neat that VASL has allowed me to play a number of other board games. I am also wondering why they are not selling VASL.[/B][/QUOTE]

In regards to someone elses comment that they state you have to buy the actual components to play. I laugh out loud if you think everyone that downloads the game is going to follow the rules or if you think stating that makes it anymore legal under the law.

VASL was originallly seen as a tool to use along with the game. Now if you buy just the core rulebook and get a few photocopies from a friend you never need to buy another module. A version with an AI elimates the need even further and provides yet another method for it. Yes everyone on the forums probably owns all the stuff and then some. They are the die-hards. But what about the more casual ASL player? They are dumping their stuff on Ebay and not buying anymore modules because they dont have to. Granted Im only speaking off some I know but Im sure it represents a good number of the "non diehard" players. I fail to see how that is good for the hobby or MMP.

Finding opponents for ASL is hard. Thats why there needs to be an "OFFICIAL" computer ASL tool, game or whatever not half a dozen shotty amateur products.

Each one of the above that gets made sets back any developer or publisher even further from doing so.

MMP has never pursued those that ripoff their titles and make freebie pc adaptations and tools. They need too. Its affecting my work too. Every publisher I've spoken with thinks I should just dump it and move on. That the fans deserve what they get. And yeah Les you dont even want a Commercial PC version. Maybe no one does of ASL. Though at one point you said u did for Up Front.

Even if no commercial version is made, MMP themselves would be wise to get some re-imbursement for obvious lost revenue. Then they wouldn't have to whine about how they dont have enough money to publish this or that title.

Yeah this topic bothers me because it involves me personally and I know better than anyone the legalities and issues a developer and publisher face trying to make a PC port of an existing beloved title.

Also MMP may not even have rights to PC versions of their "licensed" titles in much the same way that if you are licensed to write a book your not automatically licensed to make a movie. So some of the permission they have given may not even be legit.

Everyone but the inner circle outwardly critize MMP for just about everything they have ever done (or more specifically all the things they haven't done). I've always tried to support them as I know they are small, have other jobs, and Curt's salary is not MMP's piggybank.

What I've stated here is my personal opinion that I do not feel supporting yet another crappy JAVA version of ASL is good for the hobby or the ASL player. Whether MMP approves or not.

MMP is the first to admit they've made some big mistakes in the past. After all the next version of Up Front at one point was going to be a trading card game.

Like that was a good idea for the wargame community. Yeah Right.

I guess this post is meant more for the people who always state "Matrix should make a computer version of this or that boardgame" or "Why is my favorite game not being made into a PC version". The above is just one more reason why it doesn't happen and is a total waste of time.

If thats not something thats important to you then we disagree on the issue and just move on.

_____________________________


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Post #: 15
- 4/15/2003 12:07:02 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by AlvinS
[B]
On the Web site for JASL he does recognize Hasbro, Avalon Hill, MMP, and VASL. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thats like using Britanny Spears latest song in my game and just giving her credit for it. Giving credit has nothing to do with the legalities of using or reproducing something.

How bout setting up a website where you can download any pc game but before you download it says "Please understand by downloading this software you are aknowledging that you already own a legal copy and you are downloading this only for backup purposes."

Put a site like that up in the states and see how long it lasts.

I realize this is the wrong audience for this topic. If most people understood how copyright laws work, well hopefully anyways they wouldnt be downloading endless quantaties of MP3's and such and justifying it simply by saying "I wouldnt have bought it anyway so no money lost".

And I guess its not your fault. They should probably run TV adds to educate people on issues like these.

_____________________________


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Post #: 16
- 4/15/2003 12:55:59 AM   
jnier


Posts: 402
Joined: 2/18/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]I realize this is the wrong audience for this topic. If most people understood how copyright laws work, well hopefully anyways they wouldnt be downloading endless quantaties of MP3's and such and justifying it simply by saying "I wouldnt have bought it anyway so no money lost".
[/B][/QUOTE]

I understand how copright law works and if a publisher cannot establish that they have been financially harmed by the infringement, then they are not likely to bring a suit.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 17
- 4/15/2003 2:23:32 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Hmm.

I thought it was common knowledge I prefer board games over computer games.

It is common knowledge to any that have visited there site, that MMP willingly allows a link to VASL. Wise, who am I to say, it's not my property.

I would still like a computer Up Front Veldor. I am not holding my breath, sorry I will support the idea, but am after all living in the real world.

Everyone that knows me knows where I stand on copywrite, not going to blather on about it at length though. I am not a lawyer, and I doubt anyone else here is either.

Harmful to the hobby comes in many guises (is anyone looking at those links of mine?).

MMP does not have a forum on their web site, personal decision. Personally I think the cash would be well spent, but it is after all their cash, and not mine.

Hasbro "owns" ASL everything ASL and just about anything that has AH written on it. Hasbro is to gaming what MS is to computers. Trust me if someone breaks a rule, the deep pockets of Hasbro willl get you, if it means doowah to them at all.

Casual ASL player, perhaps there is no such thing as a casual ASL player. Perhaps the game lives and dies with the original fan base and it will never get replaced. Hey the game is great but it isn't the be all and end all of existence.

Up Front as a collectible game, it would not get so much as a nibble from me personally. I like the game because it is a wargame first and last. That it uses cards is unique. But possessing cards does not make it automatically suitable for that other hobby.

Wargaming might have many futures. Currently I see board gaming progressing thanks to the computer as a tool. The computer is just that a tool. I think it is a very cool thing what VASL has opened up for the hobby. It is possible it might be the salvation of the hobby. I don't think it will hurt MMP nearly as much as it will inspire gamers to try board games yet some more.
I think it is odd VASL is being offered free though. Maybe that is wrapped up in the legality much as Matrix can't sell Steel Panthers.
I do know that you have to purchase Aide De Camp, and it has been on the market now for a couple of years. It is not some new comer no one is aware of.

The fact these options don't work without owning the actual game is not easy to get away from.
If you offered me a file with scans of all the components all the maps all the charts every single solitary component of every single piece of ASL would I be happy with just some colour print outs on card stock...

[SIZE=4]NO![/SIZE]

I like the real thing, not to mention the real thing is so many times better. I hate mapsheets as it goes. I am certainly not going to tolerate crummy fake it materials.

Not to mention I know the cost of colour copies, might as well buy the real thing and spend a large fortune as opposed to spending a small fortune on defacto junk.

I am hoping that as VASL matures, it will become the "official" computer tool for ASL. Remember, MMP was just an unofficial source, that one day decided to become the official source.
I think VASL should be given the same chance.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 18
- 4/15/2003 3:00:26 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by jnier
[B]I understand how copright law works and if a publisher cannot establish that they have been financially harmed by the infringement, then they are not likely to bring a suit. [/B][/QUOTE]

In almost all cases that is true. Most especially with a smaller publisher.

But that fact doesn't change the actual law as you know.

_____________________________


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Post #: 19
- 4/15/2003 3:17:32 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Casual ASL player, perhaps there is no such thing as a casual ASL player. Perhaps the game lives and dies with the original fan base and it will never get replaced. Hey the game is great but it isn't the be all and end all of existence.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yep thats part of the point. For the most part ASL'rs aren't very accomodating to the casual player.

[QUOTE][B]The fact these options don't work without owning the actual game is not easy to get away from.
If you offered me a file with scans of all the components all the maps all the charts every single solitary component of every single piece of ASL would I be happy with just some colour print outs on card stock...[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes no argument it doesnt work for someone who wants to place face to face. But for those satisfied by using the computer only you do not need any counters, mapboards or any other components and many are computer happy and literate enough to just reference the scanned .pdf files anyways. Besides past the original rulebook most of the module rules are small anyways. Its hard to justify a $1000.00 collection of games just to own the rule pages. Even those color copies arent going to run you anywhere near that (main rulebook excluded).

[QUOTE][B]I am hoping that as VASL matures, it will become the "official" computer tool for ASL. Remember, MMP was just an unofficial source, that one day decided to become the official source.
I think VASL should be given the same chance. [/B][/QUOTE]

Java is awful. It's not even worth an argument. I'll win it just by saying not a single commercial game product uses Java. It's doubtful it could ever be anywhere near that professional an application. And if it can then its all the more reason while another competing JAVA app is all the more worse for VASL. I could see some merit in a C++ or otherwise professional quality app.

Honestly put, after finishing Up Front if that worked out, I very much would have like to do a professional ASL app myself. The main problem "diehards" have is a total boardgame biased view which makes certain interface issues very difficult. Its also doubtful the AI can ever be very good and of course graphics performance and game aids etc with Java are not what they should be. etc. etc. MMP is foolish to support this other project if they are (and I dont think they are). Their support of VASL is a different issue and based upon a different time and place and different view of what VASL is than they are starting to hopefully have..

ASL is MMP's bread and butter. It shouldn't be given away in any form. Yes, even VASL as it is would be a very sellable product to the ASL public. And like I already stated if there is to be another "competing" product out there it is stupid as hell for it to be another Java based game (Even containing the same map and counter graphics). I mean what is the point of that? End of story.

_____________________________


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Post #: 20
- 4/15/2003 4:15:07 AM   
AlvinS

 

Posts: 665
Joined: 12/2/2000
From: O'Fallon, Missouri
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Thats like using Britanny Spears latest song in my game and just giving her credit for it. Giving credit has nothing to do with the legalities of using or reproducing something.
[/QUOTE]

I understand what you are saying. Giving credit does not equal permission to reproduce the game or anything else. IMHO someone who is illegally producing a game would not give credit to the one he stole it from. I may be wrong, but it just does not make sense.

I enjoy wargames, both board and computer, and I will not intentionally do anything to harm my hobby.

[I]Posted by Cheeks[/I]
[QUOTE]Veldor, do you subscribe to the ASL email-newsgroup? This is a service provided by Multi-Man Publishing (current & BEST producer of ASL products). Lars is a respected AND contributing member of the forum and has posted updates concerning JASL for nearly a year or more. I might add that the owner of MMP (Curt Shilling [sp?]) and other employees of MMP show up daily on the list. MMP is known for adhering quite vigorously to all copyright / Hasbro issues dealing with ASL and they informed of JASL. MMP has paid for the licensing and ALL ASL players know if MMP doesn't turn a profit, there will be no ASL[/QUOTE]

If MMP or Hasbro has a problem with Lars, I am sure they will set him straight. If he Is producing the game illegally I will not use it. However, just short of asking him to see in writing, permission to produce the program what else do we go by? I took Matrix at their word that they had permission to update Steel Panthers and create SPWAW.

I will purchase ASL from MMP as soon as the printing of the basic manual is complete.

_____________________________

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." ---Mark Twain

Naval Warfare Simulations

AlvinS

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 21
- 4/15/2003 7:46:24 AM   
Cheeks

 

Posts: 157
Joined: 8/31/2002
From: Ohio Valley
Status: offline 		NOW HEAR THIS:

>>In regards to someone elses comment that they state you have to buy the actual components to play. I laugh out loud if you think everyone that downloads the game is going to follow the rules or if you think stating that makes it anymore legal under the law.<<

I agree that 100% that use the program will not purchase the modules or rules. I firmly believe that 75% or better of beginning players will go on to purchase the game and future modules. I base this on the fact that you would only use this program if you're interested in WWII, tacticaly minded and love the immersion of the sport. Otherwise it would not stay on a persons hard drive.

>>VASL was originallly seen as a tool to use along with the game. Now if you buy just the core rulebook and get a few photocopies from a friend you never need to buy another module.<<

Bingo...a purchase has been made and the sport has grown a small x%. Thats the aim of the program. An interest has been shown. Now, the percentage chance that this person will go on to buy another product is EXTREMELY LARGER than the person who didn't buy anything. Marketing.....lovely tool.

>>A version with an AI elimates the need even further and provides yet another method for it.<<

Wrong. The program gives no written rules, unit capabilities, non-legal LOS (in VASL it is stated to use the orginal boards to trace LOS because the "virtual boards" aren't always correct). In essence...you're blind, deaf and dumb without a further purchase.

>>But what about the more casual ASL player? They are dumping their stuff on Ebay and not buying anymore modules because they dont have to. Granted Im only speaking off some I know but Im sure it represents a good number of the non diehard" players. I fail to see how that is good for the hobby or MMP.<<

They've made a purchase and decided that the game wasn't for them. Fine. They sell it on E-bay, someone purchases it at a reduced cost, this person might get hook, ending with a furture purchase. Perfect business model.

>Finding opponents for ASL is hard. Thats why there needs to be an "OFFICIAL" computer ASL tool, game or whatever not half a dozen shotty amateur products.<<

Shotty amateur... I take offense to your statement. These are enhancments done by people who have to get up in the morning and go to work with nothing to profit from except recognition from the ASL community and with the blessing of MMP. If you're a player of ASL then I'm embarrased to be associated with the game.


>>MMP has never pursued those that ripoff their titles and make freebie pc adaptations and tools.<<

TTP (third party products) have been vigurously attacked by MMP. Seriously.... how can you say this. I ask you again, do you subscribe to the ASL mailing list? If so, than you would be able to follow a play by play of MMP's (could be Hasbro's) lawyers at work.

THAT IS ALL:

Cheeks

_____________________________

Turn the other cheek

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 22
- 4/15/2003 8:34:02 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Anyone that has seen the ASL rule book knows what it looks like.

Danged hard to fake this game to be sure.

But I also have a few good books on theoretical physics around here.

Given a chance, I can make the physics of black holes make sense as easily as I can point out, that ASL is as easy as you wish to make it.

In wargaming, finding new players, is like finding a new job, finding a new mate, or anything else sought after that is often not just found at every turn.

You only get what you look for, and where you look determines what you find, and how easily it is located.

I can say, I can teach ASL to anyone. But that's me.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 23
- 4/15/2003 10:01:05 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		Since this topic has gotten a bit off-track, lets start new instead of picking apart each others word choices.

Since this thread was not really about the pros and cons of VASL but rather another new product, lets all just agree for the moment that VASL is a great product thus far (and for the most part it is THUS far).

Now given that VASL is a "community" & "open source" effort that virtually anyone can get the source code for or at least portions of it and/or contribute too.... And noting that its written in Java...WHY on earth would someone want to go out and DUPLICATE nearly that entire effort just to add some things.

Why are they not instead expanding on VASL? Add AI to VASL? And so on.

And if you WERE going to make a seperate product.. You wouldnt do it with the very same tool as VASL. Not Java. You would use something else. Most likely C++, so that you could deliver the Game at a level and with features the java version couldnt. Making another JAVA version is just plain stupid, against the community effort, and no more commmercially sellable than VASL..probably even less so.

So someone tell me why this OTHER java version is needed? Why we cant just have one freebie game instead of two? And why MMP would want to support it?

As for what I believe the "next" PC adaptation of ASL should be: A commercial one. Why? Because we already have a "freebie" one. And a commercial app just simply will not be a java based one. Cold hearted fact. It will be done by someone on their off hours yes. And it will preserve the look and feel perfectly (as VASL has) because the ASL community would revolt otherwise. But it would also include much much more that VASL doesn't.

For Les Specifically: You have stated many many times that a PC is just a tool and can do little to "better" or "replace" the actual boardgame. Ignoring all other games.. Your statement is more true of a game like ASL than any other. This is easily seen in VASL and though VASL is the ONLY tool we have that fact is also its biggest flaw. It ISNT even close to a pc replacement for the boardgame.

Of course now everyone will flame me stating its not suppose to be and/or they don't want one. If so then that is the simple difference here. Many would like a PC replacement for ASL. A "Perfect" adaptation if you will. VASL is far from that mark and the new endeavor does not fair any better. It is with that goal in mind that I state everything I have.

I would like to see developed (by myself, MMP, or ANYONE) a FULL PC adaptation of ASL. And of course a PC version would have to go even farther and provide ADDITIONAL value such as very usefull tools, player aids, analysis and whatever else beyond simple dice rolls.

Where is the evil in that? Cut me some slack here I'm a fan too or I wouldn't be trying to encourage all the PC ports I am and doing some of them myself...

_____________________________


(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 24
- 4/15/2003 11:59:23 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Flame no, you have not said anything meriting flame.

I would think a full out total committment to a computerised ASL would not be a "bad thing".

Unless it detracted from the "real thing".

But is the real thing the only thing?

I for instance don't really care for computer rolegames. I have seen them and investigated them, but only to understand them.

But frankly, to me, computer rolegames miss the mark like masturbating with online porn is a dumb way to get sex.

Rolegaming to me is all about the social interaction of people in the same room. It helps to have a fun game, a competent game runner and players that meld well naturally. You can say that about anything that involves several people though.

Playing ASL on the computer would be similarly unsatisfying to me compared to playing the actual game. That is if I had to chose.
Playing it on the computer would be a nice way to allow me to play someone internationally though.

But to me the game is about rolling the dice and then praying there is enough modifications to allow that cool result. Peering down at those counters, and trying to picture myself actually in the terrain. Listening to martial sounding backdrop and bantering with my opponent about wargaming in general.

That just doesn't come through in a computer game with the inclusion of a chat line function. It's not the same.

I can agree though, it might be silly to put out a program with inefficient software. But that is a realm of expertise way over my head, so I won't presume to comment on the merits of Java (as I am unable to).
It would not be the first time though, a project went forth with more than one effort thanks to differing opinions of the beter way.

That is why some will play one version of Steel Panthers and some will play the other. Everyone has their own vision sometimes.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 25
- 4/15/2003 12:47:42 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]I can agree though, it might be silly to put out a program with inefficient software. But that is a realm of expertise way over my head, so I won't presume to comment on the merits of Java (as I am unable to).
It would not be the first time though, a project went forth with more than one effort thanks to differing opinions of the beter way.

That is why some will play one version of Steel Panthers and some will play the other. Everyone has their own vision sometimes. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well whats so silly here is that both projects are using Java. That just doesnt make sense and only would hurt further a "non-java" effort or commercial effort. It can't help it anyway. Its also a waste of the second parties time and its doubtful it will be okay'd by MMP. Makes much more sense to just expand VASL instead.

But I've already said all that.

As for your other comments. I know well your position on computer vs board games (as does most anyone by now on this forum). But I will say since VASL and JASL are not tools that in anyway help you play the boardgame face to face... The issue more revolves around VASL vs JASL vs a FULL PC ASL version.

Now I dont think I would be too far out of line to state that most, given the PC space, would GREATLY prefer a full pc asl version (even at a commercial level) instead of what VASL brings us today or what JASL will.

That statement is not meant to be disrespectful of the efforts put in by many on VASL. They did what they could. I do not know the motivation for the JASL author to not help VASL and make his own mostly redundant product instead but I too assume he has only honorable intentions.

Mostly the above has little to do though with legality and/or MMP's position on those products or a future product. And while a commercial PC ASL product may likely never be made, it does not alter the fact that I see a second JAVA based product as only a hinderance to that possibility or to the possibility of making VASL even better.

Clearly too it would seem not in MMP's best interests to support two seperate efforts, or especially three in the case of a commercial development ASL project being brought before them.

For any board or cardgame there is an audience for the non-pc game only, an audience for both pc and non-pc, and yes most importantly a mostly untapped audience of pc only enthusiasts. With any hope some of them are entertained and interested enough to pickup the boargame later on.

The debate on whether ASL would make a good PC game is long and drawnout and I've been on both sides of that fence at one point or another. But I don't think it can really be said that VASL is anywhere close to what THAT PC ASL game should ultimately be.

My interest is in the greater picture here.

_____________________________


(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 26
- 4/15/2003 12:59:49 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		One major hurdle not easy to find a solution to, is making a PC ASL even appealing to the computer predominant crowd at all.

The same response is potentially likely, that you get from people that take one look at Steel Panthers, and moan about how it looks to boring.

Then there is the percentage of people, that would almost certainly say something inexplicably impossible to fathom, such as, can you make ASL with 3d graphics and in real time?

I mean, hmm why would I even want to?

If I wanted a 3d real time ASL, I would likely sit back and wait for something along the lines of a game that started out to be a 3d real time game.

ASL on the table, is not going to be much different from ASL on the PC to a large swath of the gaming public, even if thanks to the computer, much of the manual was defacto hidden in the guise of a computer program.

I like the detail myself, but it's not likely going to be a mainstream comment any time soon.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 27
- 4/15/2003 1:01:49 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Why there is more than one java using program out there is not easy to fathom. I have not encountered the creators.

They might share differing opinions on how it should be done, yet both have no problem employing java.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 28
- 4/15/2003 9:52:31 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]One major hurdle not easy to find a solution to, is making a PC ASL even appealing to the computer predominant crowd at all.

The same response is potentially likely, that you get from people that take one look at Steel Panthers, and moan about how it looks to boring.

Then there is the percentage of people, that would almost certainly say something inexplicably impossible to fathom, such as, can you make ASL with 3d graphics and in real time?

I mean, hmm why would I even want to?

If I wanted a 3d real time ASL, I would likely sit back and wait for something along the lines of a game that started out to be a 3d real time game.

ASL on the table, is not going to be much different from ASL on the PC to a large swath of the gaming public, even if thanks to the computer, much of the manual was defacto hidden in the guise of a computer program.

I like the detail myself, but it's not likely going to be a mainstream comment any time soon. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with all that but its a seperate debate. Since there is already a partial PC adaptation I think it can easily be said that it could be a lot better and have a lot more features. Likewise the point is if you are going to start developing a second seperate product it would be pointless unless your going to make a better product and replacement for the first. Which as a Java app has no reason to be better and no ability to be supported by MMP over the original VASL.

You wont find much support for a commercial ASL product around Matrix for obvious reasons. If done right it has more validity than some think I believe(It is, after all, not THAT much different than some games already out or coming out for the PC). But even if we agree that would be a dumb idea altogether, my statement still stands. It is a waste of time on the part of the developer, the ASL community, and MMP to support a DUPLICATE JAVA-BASED ASL Game. We already have one of those thats been around for YEARS and is open source enough that just about anyone could join the project that wanted to.

_____________________________


(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 29
- 4/15/2003 10:56:42 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I feel like the guy that nodded off in class and thinks they missed something.

Veldor, what is the software this remark refers to?

"We already have one of those thats been around for YEARS and is open source enough that just about anyone could join the project that wanted to."

I know of VASL and the Java ASL program. Were you actually referring to one of those?

As for Matrix supporting a commercial ASL game, well I can't see that being realistic.
I mean with Steel Panthers and soon Combat Leader, it would be odd for us to ask them to produce a computerised version of a board game that some would say would be so close to what those two games are, as to be duplication of effort, or even contrary to producing Combat Leader.

MMP has been for 2002 and 2003 quite swamped with hassle of getting ASL the real thing back into print. A major undertaking to be sure. Sorting out their core line and all that, has not left them endless open space for fringe efforts.
They have even managed to sell out the 2nd Edition reprinted manual even at a 100 dollar (Canadian) price tag (pretty impressive I think).

Taking and realising a better VASLesque design much just currently be a bridge to far at this time.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 30
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