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- 4/19/2003 5:25:22 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		It is easy for me to wonder how people can "get by" with something like a 56k modem situation, but I have to remember, a lot of the wargaming world, in fact a lot of the world just doesn't enjoy the priviledge of a DSL or Cable or better option.

If the article I read last month is any indication, tech is about to once again leap forward as well.
Wireless tech appears to be making strides that will leave current conventional DSL and Cable in the dust.
Yes I know that sounds hard to envision, but then 10 years ago I thought a 486 computer with a 33.3 modem was really fine.

Sadly the 56k crowd will just get left that much further feeling disadvantaged.

My previous example though, was meant to illustrate, that for all the fanfare of "e" mail being so fast, the e world has it's limitations. Transmitting large amounts of data can sometimes be easier by just dumping it on a cd and mailing it in routine airmail.

For those that employ a 56k service, the origional way, mail, is sometimes the right choice.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 91
- 4/19/2003 6:29:40 AM   
larth

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 4/15/2003
Status: offline 		I believe this is really turning in an off-topic discussion since most of your beef seems to be java...


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
[B]The most credible "universal" security report for last year stated LINUX as having the most vulnerabilities discovered for last year and MS was second. Its always more popular to pick on the big guys though so that fact didn't get advertised too much. In either case when 90% of the world uses a MS product for this or that and 10% uses the rest, it doesnt mean the other products arent just as buggy or unsecure. Its just not as many are trying to find them.
[/B][/QUOTE]

You mean the MS sponsored Aberdeen Group report? And it based on [I]new[/I] vulnerabilities, not the sum of known and new. Look into current stats and you'll see MS viruses still lead.



[B][QUOTE]
What does anything involving Microsoft have to do with an "aversion to Java"?
[/B][/QUOTE]


Perhaps because of quotes like:

[I]
"Java scares the hell out of me" (Bill Gates)

"How do we turn Java into just the latest, best way to write Windows applications?" (Ben Slivka, Microsoft's Java program manager)

"Subversion has always been our best tactic, it leaves the competition confused, and they don't know what to shoot at anymore." (John Ludwig, Microsoft's vice president in charge of Java development)


more here: http://www.ccianet.org/papers/ms/trial_report.php3

(search on java)

[B][QUOTE]
Haven't you heard of Microsoft Visual J++ or Visual J# .NET?
[/B][/QUOTE]



Surely. J++ is mostly known for the MS attempt at hijacking Java for their own purposes by introducing windows only extensions. And, by coincidence, a new security alert a couple of weeks ago.

J# is as far as I know only a way of moving the from old MS Java 1.1.4 (J++) into .NET, but only for .NET - it will not run on other companies Java virtual machines.


I think we can leave it at that. I have my opinion. You have yours.

/Lars

_____________________________

--

"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 92
- 4/19/2003 1:31:28 PM   
Ludovic Coval

 

Posts: 2155
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Toulon, France
Status: offline 		larth,

[QUOTE]I didn't know you / eric but checking the credits made that clear - cool. The www page says still in development - how far are you?[/QUOTE]

Say that far more is done than to do ;)

LC

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 93
- 4/19/2003 1:45:04 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
[B]I believe this is really turning in an off-topic discussion since most of your beef seems to be java...[/B][/QUOTE]

No, not really. You might need to reread my initial posts before you joined this topic. My complaint against JASL has everything to do with everything other than JAVA.

I have no problem with VASL being a JAVA based app. In specific VASL has been very careful to avoid legal issues both way back when with Avalon Hill, and now with MMP though Avalon Hill never gave VASL "official" approval and I am actually not certain that even MMP has though linking to the site from theirs is a pretty good start.

The thing with VASL is they really don't need too much approval in the first place anyway. That is because the boards and counters are not scanned in but redrawn. Of course that still doesn't completely eliminate the issue but most other objections are removed because along with that fact is the fact that basically NO LOGIC whatsoever is implemented, or at least very little.

In order to implement an AI a program must also implement all the game logic. This is a major breach of copyright as it would be identical logic to another product not even just partially based on it. The trademark would be infringed as well (as would also be the case with VASL).

Really none of that much matters although the simple fact is its enough of an infringement that for your own protection (or my own were it me but hey you make your own decisions) I would want some sort of "semi-official" approval if it were me. It is quite possible that Hasbro is the one that actually retains rights to the use of ASL in any computer version and so on so even in the case of MMP merely "ignoring" your project thus far could be not enough.

But since in 20 plus posts my objections still somehow seem unclear let me summarize in very simple language:

1. JASL is a completely unauthorized endeavor thus far.
2. If a program is going to implement and enforce ASL game logic, it should ideally be VASL not a seperate product with the same graphics set.
3. If VASL cannot be the "universal" ASL app (Kinney once said he didn't want to ever implement game logic PRECISELY because of legal issues alone) then the new application should be a "complete" "commercial quality" application.
3a. And this is where the sub-note came in about my opinion being that a "complete","commerical quality" application with a great AI, graphics, and all the game logic would best be accomplished with a platform other than what VASL used and ideally more along the lines of what most publishers like to see which is DirectX applications for sure, and in my experience and opinion (and I can say that all THREE publishers I talked to did prefer exactly this(including Matrix)) C++ as well.

That's it. Java has its uses and plenty of strengths. Its just not with games to me. All I ever really said about Java is that most publishers prefer DirectX and C++ and that either way that is what the majority of Game Developers use.

_____________________________


(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 94
- 4/19/2003 2:01:31 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
[B]You mean the MS sponsored Aberdeen Group report? And it based on [I]new[/I] vulnerabilities, not the sum of known and new. Look into current stats and you'll see MS viruses still lead.
[/B][/QUOTE]

A vulnerability is no longer a vulnerability if it has been fixed. More total vulnerabilities discovered just means its been targeted heavily and bugs have been found and fixed. Others still have the same number of bugs or more they just haven't all been discovered yet because not nearly as many people are trying. But as 90% of hackers love to target Microsoft, it would alarm me that Linux has even NEARLY the same amount of bugs and vulnerabilities.

[QUOTE][B]

Perhaps because of quotes like:

[I]
"Java scares the hell out of me" (Bill Gates)

"How do we turn Java into just the latest, best way to write Windows applications?" (Ben Slivka, Microsoft's Java program manager)

"Subversion has always been our best tactic, it leaves the competition confused, and they don't know what to shoot at anymore." (John Ludwig, Microsoft's vice president in charge of Java development)


[/B][/QUOTE]

Quotes are a bit dated and out of context. That's like quoting something Bill Gates said about Windows in the early 90's and applying it to Windows XP.

[QUOTE][B]

Surely. J++ is mostly known for the MS attempt at hijacking Java for their own purposes by introducing windows only extensions. And, by coincidence, a new security alert a couple of weeks ago.

J# is as far as I know only a way of moving the from old MS Java 1.1.4 (J++) into .NET, but only for .NET - it will not run on other companies Java virtual machines.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Well in the business world anyway most people care more about things like XML's universal abilities and so on which J# is aimed specifically at.

I just don't see any customers with issues like making their core apps run on linux machines as well and anyone I've ever (and I really do personally mean this with no exeptions) anyone that runs Linux at home is a "techie" not just some casual pc buyer or even a "power user". Games need to run on linux about as much as the MAC OS needs to run on a PC.

Mostly I just find it humorous that this is all Java "fans" can ever come up with to defend why Java is so great. Yeah my C++ app can't run on a MAC or LINUX machine without an emulator(and some tweaking on top). But hell if I care if they can run on those platforms at all. I care about that about as much as I care if my app can run on a VIC-20 or TSR-80. And truthfully, if you code properly, were a MAC or LINUX version something you wanted, you could develop your code in such a way that very little would need to be altered for that compatibility.

BUT the whole reason so few bother is because if you develop ONLY for Windows you have HOARDS of extras and tools that JAVA doesnt at your disposal... So its just plain easier, faster, stable and powerful to use all the extras you get for it being proprietary and specific to just one platform. Basic truth in anything. PC related or not.
[QUOTE][B]

I think we can leave it at that. I have my opinion. You have yours.

/Lars [/B][/QUOTE]

I think we can leave it at I am right and you are wrong. :)

_____________________________


(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 95
- 4/19/2003 8:09:02 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I have really appreciated the comments fielded by your Veldor and as well you Lars.

Way over my head mostly, but it has been interesting trying to understand them.

For me, my ultimate wish, is for VASL to become the utlimate "tool" for board gaming.

As a tool, MMP and Hasbro would not have someone usurping the need to buy the game, but would rather, just be providing a tool you use to play the game.

An AI has it's merits, but I think an AI is unnecessary to the goal. The goal being "how do I get the guy in country X able to play The Guards Counter Attack against me on the computer?".

In my vision, VASL is just a tool. I would feel that VASL if down right, would be as much copywrite infringement, as my table is. It would be just something needed to play the game.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 96
- 4/19/2003 10:23:23 PM   
Veldor


Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]I have really appreciated the comments fielded by your Veldor and as well you Lars.

Way over my head mostly, but it has been interesting trying to understand them.

For me, my ultimate wish, is for VASL to become the utlimate "tool" for board gaming.

As a tool, MMP and Hasbro would not have someone usurping the need to buy the game, but would rather, just be providing a tool you use to play the game.

An AI has it's merits, but I think an AI is unnecessary to the goal. The goal being "how do I get the guy in country X able to play The Guards Counter Attack against me on the computer?".

In my vision, VASL is just a tool. I would feel that VASL if down right, would be as much copywrite infringement, as my table is. It would be just something needed to play the game. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's pretty much VASL as it stands right now isn't it? So what do you feel needs to be added or changed in VASL? What's needed or not needed in a seperate undertaking?

_____________________________


(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
Post #: 97
- 4/20/2003 5:18:49 AM   
Mac_MatrixForum


Posts: 295
Joined: 4/11/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		Just finished reading the thread and I just have to comment. This is a long post but there are many issues I wanted to address.

Veldor, trying to impress grognards with your prog-talk? Sure it's likely you can get away with it but there are some of us who do understand you and you make an *** out of yourself. Less marketing hype and more good reasons would remedy the situation but I guess you like we all are too lazy to look up for facts before spewing out baseless accusations to support your view. Some newbie Java programmer displaced you or where's the angst coming from?

Even though I agree with you on that C++ has more merits than Java you have not yet even come close to my reasons. In fact your so called reasons are quite irrelevant.
[list]
  • Getting the product done is the biggest problem, no matter what language. What does it matter in the end if the product works? I have observed that many hobbyists go for Java so it must be easier to get into programming with Java than with C++. I have also experienced that somewhat myself. Productivity is better for some types of applications. C++ is not an easy language.

  • AI has little to do with the language. You are true in that many games neglect AI but that's the way business world has worked in this case.

  • Business world is using a lot of Java succesfully, don't you agree? However, saying all of X uses Y does not make Y any better. It's more an indication of business realities. The best solution does not always win (and C++ isn't always the best either).

  • Many games use some kind of scripting language for most code. Performance is not the problem and I'm sure I bore you if I quote the 80-20 rule or state that for most code performance doesn't matter and you can very well optimize just the code where it matters.

  • Many graphics intensive applications need speed and C++, true, but mainly in just a few places. In the business world seems you can always buy bigger tin :D.

  • Java JIT compilers are quite good. Most likely better than custom hacks you would implement to your own scripting language. Hasn't MS hyped you with C# and .NET performance? Those apply to Java as well.

  • MFC is good? Please. I'm no expert in it having only worked on a couple applications with it years ago but what I've seen and done does not convince me. In fact I find MFC a terrible antique library I wouldn't touch without significant compensation. AWT/Swing might not be as fast but that's not the issue for these types of games. Try GTK, wxWindows or what's better Qt for some other perspectives. Those are even free (Qt for Windows not) and portable. Oh and btw. I'm not satisfied with any one of those so I'm writing my own user interface library but many would call me crazy and most do not have the luxury.

  • Graphic designers (programs to make the UI with) as in Delphi are very useful for GUI programming. I don't think MS form editors even begin to compare.

  • Wouldn't you rather have the (you say) few Mac and Linux people be able to use your product too than leaving them out in the cold? Despite my handle I'm primarily a Linux user nowadays (in fact never been a Mac user). Java is very portable. C++ with SDL/OpenGL and the GUI libraries I mentioned is too. MFC and DirectX are not.

  • C++ vs. Java.
    C++ has templates = some support for generic, meta- and generative programming and much less casting, covariant return types, operator overloading, const, STL, destructors & stack allocation = RAII, static type system to name a few
    Object-oriented programming is possible in both.
    Both have a lot of free libraries.
    Java is always garbage collected, C++ possibly if needed/if you consider that good.
    In Java you can easily load code on the fly, reflection, more dynamic typing

  • VB is not really a higher level language. It doesn't offer any useful constructs C++ doesn't have. It just doesn't enable you to do low level programming like in C++. Higher level constructs such as first-class functions and higher order functions, lexical scope, closures, multiple dispatch etc. you might find in languages such as Lisp, ML or Haskell (latter two with true strong static typing). They also have compilers if you need the speed.

    [/list]
    Your idea of JASL and VASL somehow eating each other or doing some other harm seems funny to me. Copyright must be respected but having two or more similar programs isn't always a problem but a Good Thing(tm). An application doesn't have to be complete or commercial quality to be fun to its creator and others. Many such projects are commercially unfeasible. I wouldn't talk about fragmenting the few users but reaching a wider audience instead. Sometimes diversity however is bad like you say but the chess analogy was nice :).

    Maybe you spoke hastily in the beginning and are now slowly agreeing or changing your mind and we can spend our time discussing something more productive. Hope you get results with your project, that's what everybody wants after all. And hope I didn't upset you too much because you also made some good points.

    Btw. (2b||!2b) is not right either. 2b is an invalid identifier because it starts with a number but you all knew that or don't care :p.

    _____________________________

    Markku "Macroz" Rontu
    "Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    • Post #: 98
    - 4/20/2003 1:02:00 PM   
    Ludovic Coval

     

    Posts: 2155
    Joined: 1/5/2001
    From: Toulon, France
    Status: offline     		Mac,

    I'm neither a anti-Java or C++ ultra fan and I agree on most of your post but on some points :

    [QUOTE]Many graphics intensive applications need speed and C++, true, but mainly in just a few places. In the business world seems you can always buy bigger tin .[/QUOTE]

    Yes and Veldor/Lars were talking of game development. DirectX has been wrote in C. Using C++ easy call to DX routines has both share the same calling/type convention. (i.e this avoid : 'How hell I call this function from language' question)

    [QUOTE]MFC is good? [/QUOTE]

    MFC is like any other development tool, it has its pro and con. It has the main advantage to be easy to use under VC++ and well documented (both inline and net). Remember, easy is fast, fast is money ;)

    [QUOTE]Graphic designers (programs to make the UI with) as in Delphi are very useful for GUI programming. I don't think MS form editors even begin to compare.[/QUOTE]

    Forms are more VB world, rarely VC++. The main option in VC++ is to use, or not, the ActiveX version of a given control : at least you have the choice. (I personaly dont use ActiveX).

    [QUOTE]Wouldn't you rather have the (you say) few Mac and Linux people be able to use your product too than leaving them out in the cold? Despite my handle I'm primarily a Linux user nowadays (in fact never been a Mac user). Java is very portable. C++ with SDL/OpenGL and the GUI libraries I mentioned is too. MFC and DirectX are not.[/QUOTE]

    You're rigth. However Win is 90% of market. Computer Wargame being already a niche market, portability is probably not a valid point here. ( Linux computer passionate wargamer user are probably quite rare as market 'target')

    [QUOTE]Java is always garbage collected, C++ possibly if needed/if you consider that good.[/QUOTE]

    I'm probably an old fashionned developer but I like to know/control memory state :D Moreover as C/C++ make a wide use of pointers, it is also a critical point to avoid memory leak.

    [QUOTE]Btw. (2b||!2b) is not right either. 2b is an invalid identifier because it starts with a number but you all knew that or don't care .[/QUOTE]

    You're right but adding a letter before the '2' would kill the joke :p

    LC.

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 99
    - 4/20/2003 2:04:53 PM   
    Veldor


    Posts: 1531
    Joined: 12/29/2002
    From: King's Landing
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mac
    [B]Veldor, trying to impress grognards with your prog-talk? Sure it's likely you can get away with it but there are some of us who do understand you and you make an *** out of yourself. Less marketing hype and more good reasons would remedy the situation but I guess you like we all are too lazy to look up for facts before spewing out baseless accusations to support your view. Some newbie Java programmer displaced you or where's the angst coming from?
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    I made very few programming related remarks before a bunch of programmers joined this thread. As now there are at least 4 programmers contributing to it it is not an out of place thread. The "grognards" can read another thread if they don't like or follow this one. More-over I have been continuing the original topic in a parallel fashion here.

    I am not too lazy to look up facts. This is hardly a high level debate we have been having. In fact, if any one thing does upset me right now, its that I could argue the JAVA side better than anyone else has. Stating LINUX support is hardly the "gem" of the Java language. But my take on the thread was never that debating JAVA was this threads prime purpose. Nor did I ever say that Java doesnt have its place. Nor did I even say it should never be used for games. All I ever stated was it is not the "DESIRED" preferred choice for commercial games.

    ---
    [QUOTE][B]
    Even though I agree with you on that C++ has more merits than Java you have not yet even come close to my reasons. In fact your so called reasons are quite irrelevant.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    I'm glad we agree. As stated before this thread is not an attempt to build some case against Java and for C++. As for my reasons being irrelevant, unless I'm forgetting something the only reason I ever even gave was that it was the "preferred choice" for games. Certainly a generic statement and as you already pointed out, this is not a software development forum so I have not qualified the specifics further nor do I see a need too. Since you agree with me, go ahead and spell out why if you feel I haven't done a good enough job at it.

    [QUOTE][B]
    Getting the product done is the biggest problem, no matter what language. What does it matter in the end if the product works? I have observed that many hobbyists go for Java so it must be easier to get into programming with Java than with C++. I have also experienced that somewhat myself. Productivity is better for some types of applications. C++ is not an easy language.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    No doubt the debate got sidetracked by a comment on JAVA. I do believe VASL is a great program and really all I mean (as ive stated now 10 times but everyone seems to ignore) is that id RATHER see VASL expanded and have all these new features than some seperate effort that borrows all the VASL graphics. And that if that isnt or cant happen that I'd rather see a FULL authorized commercial like product to replace VASL.

    [QUOTE][B]
  • AI has little to do with the language. You are true in that many games neglect AI but that's the way business world has worked in this case.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    Depends, thats why I asked about methodology and sources. More AI has been done both in the business world and in game with C++. Anyone who says they don't "borrow code" is a flat out liar and I will not even debate the issue. It's simple fact. Just like no programmer "knows" all the syntax for the language he/she is using (or even 50%) without looking up a lot of things. That means its going to be more difficult to write a good AI in something else. No not impossible, No not necessarily with a worse end result. But more difficult yes, in my own opinion, which I am intitled to have on a forum.

    [QUOTE][B]
  • Business world is using a lot of Java succesfully, don't you agree? However, saying all of X uses Y does not make Y any better. It's more an indication of business realities. The best solution does not always win (and C++ isn't always the best either).
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    The Business world uses mostly VB, Access, SQL and the like as that is what is most pertinent to the form/data based needs of most organizations. Java is used there yes, though you will not find many organizations that dont use VB,Access, or SQL but you will find many that dont use Java.

    [QUOTE][B]
  • Many games use some kind of scripting language for most code. Performance is not the problem and I'm sure I bore you if I quote the 80-20 rule or state that for most code performance doesn't matter and you can very well optimize just the code where it matters.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    There is no right answer here. But I will say that DirectX offers so many simple "effects", "manipulations", and overall "bells and whistles" not too mention simplicity in network game programming etc that while absolutely a lower priority than a good base game, certainly does help the game "look" better and more professional, and aside from all that many of those tools simply provide more interface options or more playing options (such as DirectPlay). DirectX and such are not "JUST" about performance.

    [QUOTE][B]
  • MFC is good? Please. I'm no expert in it having only worked on a couple applications with it years ago but what I've seen and done does not convince me. In fact I find MFC a terrible antique library I wouldn't touch without significant compensation. AWT/Swing might not be as fast but that's not the issue for these types of games. Try GTK, wxWindows or what's better Qt for some other perspectives. Those are even free (Qt for Windows not) and portable. Oh and btw. I'm not satisfied with any one of those so I'm writing my own user interface library but many would call me crazy and most do not have the luxury.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    It continues to evolve, and as already pointed out, is one of the best documented libraries out there. It is also widely used, not in gaming but in the business world. The newest versions of MS Visual C++ do a wonderful job at implementing it and in "writing the code" for you for much of what MFC is useful for. I don't wish to start yet another debate on MS Visual C++ vs others or MFC vs whatever, but as you well know MFC is widely used. No it doesnt make it better than xyz, but it DOES mean there are more code references, examples, documentation, peer support, professional level classes, and on and on which in the end helps a whole lot more in getting your program done, which as you already said is what is most important after all anyway.

    [QUOTE][B]
  • Wouldn't you rather have the (you say) few Mac and Linux people be able to use your product too than leaving them out in the cold? Despite my handle I'm primarily a Linux user nowadays (in fact never been a Mac user). Java is very portable. C++ with SDL/OpenGL and the GUI libraries I mentioned is too. MFC and DirectX are not.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    Yep. They are well accustomed to that stance already. If supporting a half dozen Mac and Linux potentials means sacrificing higher productivity options, absolutely. You have a Linux machine great. But are you actually going to try to tell me that you don't also have a Windows machine or at least dual boot the linux pc?

    [QUOTE][B]
  • VB is not really a higher level language. It doesn't offer any useful constructs C++ doesn't have. It just doesn't enable you to do low level programming like in C++.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    Trust me, the statement I made about VB being a higher level language was not meant in any way as a compliment for it. VB is great for form building and simple business apps in front of access or sql etc. Thats about it. I would rarely use it anywhere else. But you can find that statement in many books on the topic. Simply because the "language" of VB is a bit more English like whereas C++ is a bit more "cryptic".

    [QUOTE][B]
    Your idea of JASL and VASL somehow eating each other or doing some other harm seems funny to me. Copyright must be respected but having two or more similar programs isn't always a problem but a Good Thing(tm). An application doesn't have to be complete or commercial quality to be fun to its creator and others. Many such projects are commercially unfeasible. I wouldn't talk about fragmenting the few users but reaching a wider audience instead. Sometimes diversity however is bad like you say but the chess analogy was nice :).
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    You agree or disagree? Most of your post is taking both sides at the same time yet also neither. I agree that sometimes diversity is good, but supposedly its already been established that ASL players arent generally the most technically advanced. One PC product is plenty for them to learn, install, and be good at. Two can only make things more complicated, and Three gets to be insane. Since VASL and JASL both use the same graphics and both use the same development language, it is THAT that I find funny. When it just could be a collaboritive effort like VASL has always been since day one.

    And the copyright issue has not been dealt with. It is a clear violation though that certainly doesn't mean MMP or Hasbro will ever do anything about it.

    [QUOTE][B]
    Maybe you spoke hastily in the beginning and are now slowly agreeing or changing your mind and we can spend our time discussing something more productive. Hope you get results with your project, that's what everybody wants after all. And hope I didn't upset you too much because you also made some good points.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    I haven't changed my mind that I would prefer one PC ASL product instead of two, or that if there are two that I'd prefer the second to be a fully approved near-to commercial quality version whether sold or not.

    Your post is by far the most technical thus far so any further distraction from the seperate conversation you've only encouraged further.

    I'm glad you see value and/or agree with some of the points I've made. But if you think we should switch to a slightly more productive angle on this talk, why don't you start that off yourself by telling everyone what you think we should be discussing...
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    • Post #: 100
    - 4/20/2003 2:09:07 PM   
    Veldor


    Posts: 1531
    Joined: 12/29/2002
    From: King's Landing
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ludovic Coval
    [B]
    Yes and Veldor/Lars were talking of game development. DirectX has been wrote in C. Using C++ easy call to DX routines has both share the same calling/type convention. (i.e this avoid : 'How hell I call this function from language' question)

    MFC is like any other development tool, it has its pro and con. It has the main advantage to be easy to use under VC++ and well documented (both inline and net). Remember, easy is fast, fast is money ;)

    Forms are more VB world, rarely VC++. The main option in VC++ is to use, or not, the ActiveX version of a given control : at least you have the choice. (I personaly dont use ActiveX).

    You're rigth. However Win is 90% of market. Computer Wargame being already a niche market, portability is probably not a valid point here. ( Linux computer passionate wargamer user are probably quite rare as market 'target')

    I'm probably an old fashionned developer but I like to know/control memory state :D Moreover as C/C++ make a wide use of pointers, it is also a critical point to avoid memory leak.
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Hey Ludovic,

    I agree with everything you said there. In fact you basically make the same points I do.

    'Nuff said!

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 101
    - 4/20/2003 5:31:02 PM   
    larth

     

    Posts: 27
    Joined: 4/15/2003
    Status: offline     		I wrote this answer before reading the contribution by mac (Hi!), so please accept some overlapping. I was going to quit the discussion since it seemed to bring little of worth to me so most of these comments are for Veldor.

    First:

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
    [B]No, not really. You might need to reread my initial posts before you joined this topic. My complaint against JASL has everything to do with everything other than JAVA.
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Please. Anyone following this thread can see that this is not true. After your initial questions on the legal statius of JASL, this is what you said before I joined the topic (italic emphasizes are mine):

    [QUOTE][B]What I've stated here is my personal opinion that I do not feel supporting yet another [I]crappy JAVA[/I] version of ASL is good for the hobby or the ASL player.[/B][/QUOTE]

    and

    [QUOTE][B]Java is awful. It's not even worth an argument. I'll win it just by saying not a single commercial game product uses Java. It's doubtful it could ever be anywhere near that professional an application.... I could see some merit in a C++ or otherwise professional quality app.[/B][/QUOTE]

    and

    [QUOTE][B]And like I already stated if there is to be another "competing" product out there it is stupid as hell for it to be another Java based game (Even containing the same map and counter graphics).[/B][/QUOTE]

    and

    [QUOTE][B]And if you WERE going to make a seperate product.. You wouldnt do it with the very same tool as VASL. Not Java. You would use something else. Most likely C++, so that you could deliver the Game at a level and with features the java version couldnt.[/B][/QUOTE]

    and

    [QUOTE][B]As for what I believe the "next" PC adaptation of ASL should be: A commercial one. Why? Because we already have a "freebie" one. And a commercial app just simply will not be a java based one. Cold hearted fact.[/B][/QUOTE]

    and

    [QUOTE][B]It is a waste of time on the part of the developer, the ASL community, and MMP to support a [I]DUPLICATE JAVA-BASED[/I] ASL Game.[/B][/QUOTE]

    and

    [QUOTE][B]Whether a better full pc version of ASL ever gets made or not my point is there is no need AT ALL for the other JAVA based version that is being done...[/B][/QUOTE]

    That was [I]without anyone defending java[/I]. Sounds like panic to me.

    Thereafter you expressed your satisifaction with my "legal steps" and continued to argue on anything from "Two different interfaces" (JASL & VASL), comparing Java to Visual Basic while stating that C++ must be used for an ASL program because it is the most widespread pc game programming language but didn't go into answering my questions there, then you go into my software experience (I have 25+ years of it from assemblers, to C and Java - what about you?), and continue state that why MS and .NET are gonna win, "And the final stake through every competing OS's heart!". I sense a personal agenda here.

    I will give you that Linux is not the best platform for fast 3D games (yet). Heck, I can't get the Linux version of "Descent 3" to run properly. Nevertheless companies like IBM (mainframes and down) and SONY (PS2 & Media) are heavily investing into Linux, and each and every government / state (Oregon!) looking into it receives a special visit from Redmond - there is a MS memo at (http://www.opensource.org/halloween/halloween2.php) which is intresting. So at least there it is taken seriously.

    These were not the reason for me using Java because they did not apply back then, but there are several reasons why Java is becomming more and more intresting as a games language: the potential market for Java games is larger than the market for windows-only games. An addition the mobile phones are heading to be the #1 games platform in numbers sold per year and 90% or so are java-enabled. there is this new java-addon for Gameboy Advance as well. Someone said that java skills are the most sought programming skill on www.dice.com (search on "java" or "c#") and there is a java gaming API for PC type platforms in the making as well. A bright future indeed for java.

    Java productivity is amazing in my experience. I can say I would never have gotten as far as I have with JASL using a different language. The are comparisons which state that C++ code have 200 - 300% more bugs than java. IMO one distinct advantage is the removal of "#defines", separate files for headers and code, and global data areas. Yes, LC, I missed the pointers in the beginning but you get used to it.

    Still choice of language is a personal matter to some degree but it doesn't change basic facts on usability of language. Java vs. C++ speed is almost on par with findings favouring one or the other. Certainly the difference is not big enough for a casual user, and certainly not for a strategy game. And, should it [I]really[/I] be required, C++ code can be called using JNI. In fact this is one way many port their legacy software, moving it step to step to a java solution.

    The free tools available for java - such as eclipse and its plugins (tech talk: refactoring anyone? background compilation when a changed file is saved, etc. etc.) - is mindboggling. Just about every aspect of program development is covered (metrics analyze, "cut and paste" detection, GUI tools, ready to use XML packages, and so on). Check out Sourceforge (http://sourceforge.net/ - click on foundries) which has a foundry for java (meaning it is big enough to warrant its own area). JBoss is leading contender for why java is used with 2 million downloads last year.

    Or google for "java ai" if you believe that area is neglected in java. I think the major item stopping more programmers from taking a look at java is that it is not common knowledge how much there is already available in and for java.

    You're welcome to your opinions of course. I believe in using the right tool for getting the job done. If it is easier for you to market your games (how many did you sell so far?) because they are written in C++ that is fine with me. Others may use C, Delphi, VB or assembler for theirs. Each to his own.

    Mac: ugh - you are throwing my .sig into confusion! :-) Perhaps we can consider it a mathematical expression 2 x b | ! 2 x b in a non-programmer syntax?

    /Lars

    _____________________________

    --

    "2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

    JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 102
    - 4/20/2003 7:50:45 PM   
    Les_the_Sarge_9_1

     

    Posts: 4392
    Joined: 12/29/2000
    Status: offline     		Hmmm when I began this thread I sure had no idea it would end up here :)

    I have been interested in trying to follow the comments (ending up feeling dumber and dumber though hehe).
    I wonder how many others have been reading the thread with the same level of interest as me.

    Veldor, to comment on "what else I want VASL to look like or do", hmm I am not yet that competent personally with it to have any comments at the moment.

    Ease of use is usually my most paramount requirement. For me that means the program just simplifies my task. As I wouldn't be able to recognise Java or C++ if I was looking at them, I suppose, "ease of use" is about as analytical as I can get programing wise.

    Ease of use means to me interface, the point where human meets computer program.
    Currently, the easist game out there, is for me Strategic Command.

    When you step back and don't discuse the game from the perspective of is the game "accurate" etc, you notice, that the game is very easy to actually "run" ie control ie play ie enjoy.

    The game has a simple interface to set up your games options, then you enter the game.
    To access unit commands, a right click on a unit does this.
    To access the in game turn options a right click brings up the menu of game functions.
    Thats about it. The game doesn't require a tutorial to run it, it's just to plain obvious.

    Now I am not sure how that all relates to programing languages, but I hope it illustrates, I will go with the language, that best allows the software to be easy to actually employ.
    If java and C++ can both accomplish this equally, then it is a non issue, only important to how much work is it for the dude working with it.

    To use one of my favourite methods of discource....analogies...

    if the job is normally done by a hand tool, and takes skill in the hand tool to be done correctly, but can also be done with a power tool...
    ... and the power tool requires no skill at all...
    .... then those that have not the skill in the hand tool, will be uninclined to care what a persons opinion of hand tool skill is.

    It is generally seen as elitist and arrogant behaviour to laud hand skill use over those not possessing it. And in a commercial shop, they won't even be interested in it being done by hand.
    Speed, efficiency, and cost effectiveness will be all that counts.

    It is well nigh possible, that a person that is a real programming genius, can out do a common person with a supposedly superior programming tool, whilst using a potentially inferior programming tool.

    In that respect, it's not the programming tool that counts, but the person using it.

    I have for instance said in a few posts where the game is concerned, that the guy that made Strategic Command, could likely be considered a better designer of wargame interfaces. (not sure what was used to make the game though).

    _____________________________

    I LIKE that my life bothers them,
    Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 103
    - 4/20/2003 11:44:50 PM   
    Mac_MatrixForum


    Posts: 295
    Joined: 4/11/2000
    From: Espoo, Finland
    Status: offline     		Ok, I will comment shortly to all the replies since I managed to keep the monster thread alive ;). I refrained copying your exact quotes since it would make this post even longer but I commented things in the order they were written.

    [B]Ludovic Coval[/B]

    Awkward interfaces to foreign language libraries, as using DirectX in Object Pascal may be, are a problem especially in functional languages since most libraries are built with an imperative C-like interface.

    If you like and know MFC already then using it is obviously good for you. I have just bad experiences with it and like I said I'm aiming for something of my own in this area. I don't want to limit myself to one OS either.

    If we are lucky Robert Crandall might find time to elaborate what he has done with Flaspoint Germany? What I'm saying is that many many user interfaces can be done as forms in a designer without hand coding positions. I think using graphical editors, if possible, is a good way of doing user interfaces. In the end it might not matter. Might be that form designers are not popular with VC++ because it doesn't handle them as well as the Qt Designer, Delphi et al?

    I mentioned the business world and business decisions which is what you have to do. I don't think JASL or VASL type hobby projects apply here. Also writing standard conforming C++ and using portable libraries isn't really more work than finding out how to do things in Windows. I know I make all my own stuff portable. I find it helps me to write better code too.

    I mentioned destructors, stack allocation and the resource-acquisition-is-initalization idiom. I acknowledge the need for garbage collection in many cases but it is not always needed. However it would be stupid of me to say I can completely avoid memory leaks even though I pay attention. Lifetime management is not something that is needed for only memory allocation but also for database connections, remote resources, file handles etc.

    [B]Veldor[/B]

    Iarth displayed your mistakes quite clearly. You made many bad remarks about Java without giving any good reasons or disclaimers. That sort of attitude is bad and creates false impressions. At least my reason for joining this thread was exactly that. Such baseless accusations I don't like. You were at least lazy enough not to write your reasons for us to read.

    Your reasons seemed to be Java not being the preferred choice, Java being slow, Java being awful. First is a choice when you motivate yourself with "Nobody got fired for choosing Intel" etc. statements. That something is used a lot implies it might work, yes. Second is not quite the truth as I have explained. Third being a personal preference which you should've emphasized instead of mocking others. That is what I read from your posts.

    You can freely call me a liar because I don't "borrow code". I use libraries with suitable licences but I would never just copy & paste code to my own. "Borrowing" is counterproductive. Ideas I do get from other people's implementation notes, research papers, books but never actual code. Usually the code is of such poor quality or in wrong language so it wouldn't do much good anyway. That's an unfortunate fact that code is often write-only. I'm not saying I can always do better code but I sure try (I'm someone who is genuinely interested in programming for programming sake instead of just it being an unfortunate tool to achieve something). I have heard first hand experiences that some businesses try to make money wrapping GPL code and selling that as their own. I guess that is why some companies like the BSD licence more because it's ok there ;). That's copyright at work too and I really respect it.

    You obviously see your types of businesses that don't use Java. I see my types of businesses which do Java. I'm not trying to defend Java here because I find that language worse than C++ and the motivations are in my last post.

    That DirectX can load X files or has "bells and whistles" has little effect in your game projects. In a small hobby project it might but it certainly does not make the game look better or more professional. Artists, user interface design and quality assurance do make better looking and more polished games and that's what you can get with money. Many hobby projects don't have large Q&A teams or thorough UI designs since those things are not always fun either but hard work so it's natural they don't get as much focus in voluntary projects. You can get most of the functionality with portable free libraries. They might not have as good documentation or interfaces as a commercial product but they are certainly usable with a higher risk and more suitable for hobby projects IMHO unless the goal is learning DirectX. If you want to get something done you will usually use something you have enough experience in.

    Statements like Linux and Mac are irrelevant make it obvious why they stay like that because nobody is developing for them. I admit I have an old 98 dual-boot for games. I find it very hard to motivate an upgrade to XP because Debian GNU/Linux works so well. And mind you I don't want to spend my days debugging the kernel or such obscenities but demand my Linux to be easier to manage than a Windows system and it really is.

    I did not clearly take a side because I didn't think I had to. I program both languages fluently and wanted to show some perspectives and technical sides into the issue instead of starting to accuse somebody else's thing. I don't think there being two similar products itself has any meaningful effect. If I look for analogies I get Falcon 4.0 with RPG group and eFalcon which might go either way. IE vs. Mozilla vs. Opera et al. or the same argument with operating systems is really a matter of diversity and some choice instead of monopoly. I have very bad experiences of monopolies.

    Posts from larth have shown to me that the interoperability has been considered which is nice. Maybe it's a thing I picked up from the freedom of choice in Linux where I have several alternatives. I can see why somebody might fear fragmenting the community and doing a disservice but then again we already play and will play many different games of different periods because there is no single game that does it all. These are matters of opinion and everybody has one. Technical issues are not always and that was my agenda.

    We can discuss whatever we want and we have many forums and many threads to do that :). I think this thread has had some positive effect anyway.

    [B]larth[/B]

    Your entrance to this thread brought some balancing opinions that were IMHO needed. I must note that I did visit your pages when Les first posted to this thread and I didn't find your reasons for selecting Java right either. I even contemplated mailing you. C++ is simply IMHO the better language (for my reasons you can see my previous post) but there may be some psychological issues that help productivity in Java. Also C++ is not near perfect either and currently closest to me stand functional languages such as Scheme.

    There is a choice for Eclipse - NetBeans. However Emacs is so much faster than either of those (even with a fast machine) which is a bit disappointing. There is something hairy with threads in the JDK Swing implementation I gather. I haven't found a very good IDE for Linux yet. Maybe they will catch Visual Studio in a few years but there is certainly room there.

    You don't have to change your quote because I'm pedantic ;).

    [B]Les[/B]

    You post way too much ;). Your view, the user's view, however is very important and often neglected. Don't mind the programming stuff... if all goes well you should never need to know anything about the implementation of any program. The installation would either be clicking that program or running the "apt-get install asl" equivalent.

    [I]EDIT: fixed a couple typos[/I]

    _____________________________

    Markku "Macroz" Rontu
    "Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 104
    - 4/21/2003 12:52:46 AM   
    Veldor


    Posts: 1531
    Joined: 12/29/2002
    From: King's Landing
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
    [B]
    That was [I]without anyone defending java[/I].
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Your right! I did state a bunch of times that "Java sucks" and so on. But so what? That's no different than Les' thread stating "Hearts of Iron sucks" or anyone else's statement anywhere. It's an opinion, and if you think its possible someone who knows little on the topic will just take my opinion for theirs (does that really ever happen???) then you should speak up and defend Java as I guess you have tried to do. Which is why we are talking about it. But no, it was not the purpose of this thread to state that Java sucks.

    [QUOTE][B]
    Thereafter you expressed your satisifaction with my "legal steps"
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Yes this is and continues to be my prime objection as this sort of activity is "out of control" on all fronts, not just this area.

    [QUOTE][B]
    go into answering my questions there, then you go into my software experience (I have 25+ years of it from assemblers, to C and Java - what about you?)
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Did I ever question that (quote it please)? All I remember ever was stating "surely you've been part of a larger development team". I don't want to reduce this to a comparison of credentials as even that is a debate in itself (I will if you really want). For instance quoting number of years is least relevant over say 10 years. And for instance it is said in the industry that "10 years of experience is not the same as 1 year of experience repeated 10 times". So its really more about where you have been and what you have done, your publication credits, industry training and certs, project references, etc. Why don't we just compare salaries and earthly possessions? I'm sure I'd win but that hardly says much by itself either. How bout Penis size? :)

    [QUOTE][B]
    These were not the reason for me using Java because they did not apply back then, but there are several reasons why Java is becomming more and more intresting as a games language
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    If you ignore my earlier "generic" statements about Java "sucking" aren't you saying what I am? That Java IS NOT the primary development tools used for Games TODAY??

    [QUOTE][B]
    The free tools available for java - such as eclipse and its plugins

    Or google for "java ai" if you believe that area is neglected in java. I think the major item stopping more programmers from taking a look at java is that it is not common knowledge how much there is already available in and for java.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    If you go to your local bookstore, you will most likely NOT find books about AI in JAVA, but you will find books about AI in C++ (My Borders had 3 and one more general AI book). If you look for professional training classes you'll find similar results. Even a search of Amazon will most likely not turn up AI Java books (haven't tried recently).

    Now, don't let that make you think I am stating C++ is only better because of that. But Popularity in itself can have its advantages. Its the same reason why Microsoft products do so well. If 90% of people use a product that has 95% of the functionality of some other product, then in my opinion you are gaining more than you are losing by using that product.

    Java and Linux go "hand in hand" from the mentality standpoint. That of "free" this or that. Oddly perhaps more should just start writing books and courseware if the community wishes to gain even more ground.

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 105
    - 4/21/2003 1:06:45 AM   
    Veldor


    Posts: 1531
    Joined: 12/29/2002
    From: King's Landing
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
    [B]It is well nigh possible, that a person that is a real programming genius, can out do a common person with a supposedly superior programming tool, whilst using a potentially inferior programming tool.

    In that respect, it's not the programming tool that counts, but the person using it.
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Les, you are more right than you know.

    1) In the end what mostly matters is what the finished product is or looks like. Agreed.
    2) The path (and resultant time to completion and finished quality) to the above is often based upon already available resources (Books or other publications, Training Classes, Example or Referecable Code, Peer Groups, Coworkers or associate help, etc.)
    3) The ability to find in all of the above what is needed comes down to the individual programmers "resourcefullness".
    4) The ability to develop or program in spite of a lack of #3 or inadequate amount of #2 comes down to an individual programmers "skill".

    I consultant and teach on these types of overall issues alot. I can't see how anyone would disagree with those statements (please tell me if you don't). It is with those statements in mind that I do state and believe what I do. As C++ and DirectX and AI for games has much much more of #2 which is the second most important.

    Fundamentaly that is why #2 is a higher priority than #3 or #4 (which is the person itself). If you are going to undertake a new project in corporate america why re-invent the wheel? If one approach has more of #2 out there than another you are ensuring a quicker and more successfull path in spite of #3 or #4. Though ideally you are getting the best of quality in all those as well.

    So with all the time in the world and a ton of skill it doesn't much matter what you use. But that's not the parameters under which most of the world works (In fact its normally about the exact opposite.. No time and less skill).

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 106
    - 4/21/2003 1:35:37 AM   
    Veldor


    Posts: 1531
    Joined: 12/29/2002
    From: King's Landing
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mac
    [B]Might be that form designers are not popular with VC++ because it doesn't handle them as well as the Qt Designer, Delphi et al?[/B][/QUOTE]
    MS Visual C++ .NET Edition has a wonderful form designer for MFC apps whether your developing for .NET or not. I've always found it more than adequate for dragging and dropping and otherwise writing 99% of the code for me. Better tools out there sure but probably not better documented or as widely used ones.

    [QUOTE][B]
    Iarth displayed your mistakes quite clearly. You made many bad remarks about Java without giving any good reasons or disclaimers.[/B][/QUOTE]
    You are right but as you already pointed out its not a programming website so at that point in time it would have been just as uninterpretable as making a simple generic statement of opinion.

    I also ALWAYS interpret anything posted by anyone automatically as personal opinion. As unless they state credentials to "speak" for some greater body I don't know them from anyone. As I didn't state my credentials, it should have been assumed it was all just my personal opinion and experience.

    [QUOTE][B]
    You can freely call me a liar because I don't "borrow code". I use libraries with suitable licences but I would never just copy & paste code to my own. "Borrowing" is counterproductive. Ideas I do get from other people's implementation notes, research papers, books but never actual code.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    The problem with online forums is by the time you state all the if and or buts, exceptions, and ways of interpretation your post is 10 pages long. OF COURSE this is what I meant. Your taking my statement too literally. Many people do go so far as "copying code" others to at least "start out" by copying the code directly but all programmers at a bare minimum "reference" other code to base theirs on. Now that I think about it perhaps its better to say "borrow coding ideas" and "snippets" of code. Its never as easy as just plunking code down in your app and having it work, of course there is modification, minor or major.

    [QUOTE][B]
    I can see why somebody might fear fragmenting the community and doing a disservice....
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    VASL and JASL use the same graphics. If we are going to have two games why the same graphics? Lets go with both of them being written in Java as irrelevant. But as both are proponants of the "free" "open source" "sharing" mentality, why is JASL ignoring that nature which has been VASL from the start? It is a bit hypocritical to state those advantages of JAVA but then choose NOT to participate in the "open" project of VASL.

    [QUOTE][B]
    I think this thread has had some positive effect anyway.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    I wonder if Larth would agree.

    [QUOTE][B]
    Your entrance to this thread brought some balancing opinions that were IMHO needed. I must note that I did visit your pages when Les first posted to this thread and I didn't find your reasons for selecting Java right either. I even contemplated mailing you. C++ is simply IMHO the better language...
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Yes I read that before my post too and it sounded to me more like C++ was too hard for him to learn and that was the basis. You should at the very least obliterate that section Larth, if not rewrite it.

    ----

    One thing I think hasn't helped in our "Debate" here is the fact that many of the statements are in reference to "commercial game" or "business" related development and many of the comments are in reference to "hobbyist" game development.

    The two are vastly different and perhaps we each have a different one in mind when we are reading each others posts. JASL, as it stands, is right now a "hobbyist" freebie app. So the comments I've made about JAVA really aren't meant specifically for it though some of the counter-arguments have been. Then at the same time I have made comments about JASL and VASL themselves. This should probably be two seperate threads..

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 107
    - 4/21/2003 9:41:35 AM   
    larth

     

    Posts: 27
    Joined: 4/15/2003
    Status: offline     		Mac,

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mac
    [B]larth

    Your entrance to this thread brought some balancing opinions that were IMHO needed. I must note that I did visit your pages when Les first posted to this thread and I didn't find your reasons for selecting Java right either. I even contemplated mailing you. C++ is simply IMHO the better language (for my reasons you can see my previous post) but there may be some psychological issues that help productivity in Java. Also C++ is not near perfect either and currently closest to me stand functional languages such as Scheme.

    There is a choice for Eclipse - NetBeans. However Emacs is so much faster than either of those (even with a fast machine) which is a bit disappointing. There is something hairy with threads in the JDK Swing implementation I gather. I haven't found a very good IDE for Linux yet. Maybe they will catch Visual Studio in a few years but there is certainly room there.

    You don't have to change your quote because I'm pedantic ;).

    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Thanks! I wont (yet). ;-)


    As for C++ versus Java, it has been discussed in many places. I can only give you my view on why java makes my day. I did evaluate it when I did not get further with my ASL program using plain C. My top 10 are below - for examples assume standard ASL components ;-). Note that I am not trying to convince you to swap, not likely if you do your own gui lib! ;-) Anyway, some of these may be present in C++ to, but I am unaware of it. There is a page at [2] which is linked from [1] describing the effort of rewriting a C++ work into java, which, depending on what you read in it may confirm all your opinions on java! :-)

    But as you say on C++, java is also not nearly perfect.

    1. Garbage collector - no need to track normal use of new objects. It is very nice to be able to write functions that don't care what resources need to freed at that point. In C/C++ you need to know that at each return from a funtion, especially if you continue to allocate new memory after previous return()'s. No need to know if that if you do p_var = new array_type[size] in C++ you must free it with delete [] p_var. Just delete p_var will not do it.

    2. Standard libraries - probably as big plus as 1. There are libraries for most of the (non-gaming) standard functions of programs and platform interfacing, which includes neworking, communications, opening and showing HTML pages directly, dialogues, 2D graphics operators, 3D since last year (IIRC). There such libraries also for C++, but there are several and using different coding standards and API's. In java this is unified out of the box. For others types of libraries there efforts like [3].

    3. Stacktrace on exceptions - simple and nice to see where your program threw an exception and how you got there. The assert instruction added in 1.4. Can be enabled at runtime per class or for whole app or not at all.

    4. What You See Is What You Run (tm) - when you look at particular piece of java code you can be sure there is [I]no[/I] hidden calls via overloading! A = B + C means exactly that. This is an advantage when look for a bug because you know when you leave a particular method. A = B + C does never do that, in C++ unless you have it fresh in the head you have look in a [I]different[/I] place / file to find out if you need to look deeper there.

    5. No "undefined behaviour" or "platform dependent" which C++ has inherited from C together with inline assembler. Doesn't really belong inside a OO language.

    6. Filenames correspond to class names. Could be done in C++ too I guess. Way cool when you are looking for that class again.

    7. Tools for java - free and commercial. Favourites includes eclipse, RefactorIt (refactoring tool), Poseidon (UML editor), Jalopy (code formatter plugin for eclipse). I use these both on Linux and Win98.

    Well, I will only manage a top seven now - it is half past four in the morning.


    I love emacs. I used JBuilder for a long while in parallel with emacs + JDEE. There were several parts of the emacs / JDEE which are great (apart from being Emacs I mean!) but wasn't available in JBuilder, like automatic creation of Javadoc for classes and methods, auto indention of whole classes and so on. I used JBuilder for most trivial editing and switched to Emacs for more serious typing. Well, I stay mostly in eclipse now. I have no speed problems using my laptop (3 yrs old, 750 MHz, win 98). One do need 256 MB through. At point when I switched from JBuilder I could no longer debug using JBuilder due resource requirements, but I have no such problems in eclipse, even now with much more classes.

    There seems to be splitted opinions on templates which are going to be added to Java as generics. I am not fan of these, or let us put it this way, I haven't missed them yet. While considering using C++ for my work I run into views on memory print and stability when using these and multiple inheritance [4], which also made me look more into java.

    All in my opinion of course!

    see you,
    Lars



    [1] http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/editorial-12.html

    [2] http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/C++2java.html

    [3] http://www.mind2machine.com/gb/openmind/index.php

    [4] http://www.caravan.net/ec2plus/

    _____________________________

    --

    "2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

    JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 108
    - 4/21/2003 9:53:15 AM   
    larth

     

    Posts: 27
    Joined: 4/15/2003
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
    [B]I wonder if Larth would agree.
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    He would.

    [QUOTE][B]Yes I read that before my post too and it sounded to me more like C++ was too hard for him to learn and that was the basis.
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    No, I do not say that. C++ as a language is not much harder to learn that for example java. Please reread the FAQ in question more carefully.

    As for the physical size of your equipment, unless your use of C++ has done something for it - I am not intrested... :)

    regards,
    Lars

    _____________________________

    --

    "2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

    JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 109
    - 4/21/2003 11:08:59 AM   
    Veldor


    Posts: 1531
    Joined: 12/29/2002
    From: King's Landing
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
    [B]Mac,
    1. Garbage collector - etc [/B][/QUOTE]

    You don't seem to be too familiar with C++ especially Microsoft's .NET edition. I keep scratching my head at everything you say because .NET has all of this.

    Makes it difficult to debate.

    Let me just reference a single website. Its a .NET vs Java comparison and has two authors, one who takes each side. Its not the best written or the most in depth comparison, but I think it covers the major points on each side.

    http://www.manning.com/dotnetbooks/java_vs_dotnet/java-vs-dotnet.html

    The "rebuttal" against Java is even more "on the mark" and shows the authors greater experience in the business marketplace and familiarity with both products.

    http://www.manning.com/dotnetbooks/java_vs_dotnet/java-dotnet-rebuttals.htm

    Ultimately which one you believe has a lot to do with personal experience in the industry. Microsoft has never failed thus far. And MS having 90% of the marketplace and all the $$$ in the world to go along is likely to change the playing field regardless of which is better.

    If it were as simple as .NET vs JAVA maybe it could go either way.. But with .NET providing unified language support corporate america does love it in my experience. Its a matter of available talent and resources vs new talent and resources. There have always been more resources "people, product, books, classes, code, etc" in the non-java area...

    Like you stated lots of companies dont have Java talent and "were" looking for it. With .NET you can reuse talent and resources you already have with similiar results.

    This is what corporate america is educated to do by consultants like myself and consulting companies such as the one I work for. If it weren't me Microsoft goes in and does it themselves. There is no "JAVA Sales Force". .NET just makes sense. It's what corporate america needed most and lets face it Corporate America is really what drives the home marketplace which is what in turn drives game development. (The emergence of Windows XP being one example).

    So I see no way for Java to win the battle. Clearly it has its devoted fans and followers, like anything. But I believe history has proven that that alone has never been enough.

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 110
    - 4/21/2003 4:17:53 PM   
    larth

     

    Posts: 27
    Joined: 4/15/2003
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Veldor
    [B]You don't seem to be too familiar with C++ especially Microsoft's .NET edition. I keep scratching my head at everything you say because .NET has all of this.

    Makes it difficult to debate.

    Let me just reference a single website. Its a .NET vs Java comparison and has two authors, one who takes each side.

    ...
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    We were comparing C++ versus java and now you send us to a page comparing .NET (the platform) with java (the platform), no wonder it is hard to debate. Please stay on the topic.

    [B][QUOTE]
    Microsoft has never failed thus far.
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Which planet are you from? Either we discuss this on merits or we are heading where I said. Arguments like 'MS is gonna win' is not really productive in this case.

    regards,
    Lars

    P.S.: If java sucks so much as you believe why did C# turn out almost the same considering the time & research that went into it?

    _____________________________

    --

    "2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

    JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 111
    - 4/21/2003 10:39:52 PM   
    Veldor


    Posts: 1531
    Joined: 12/29/2002
    From: King's Landing
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by larth
    [B]We were comparing C++ versus java and now you send us to a page comparing .NET (the platform) with java (the platform), no wonder it is hard to debate. Please stay on the topic.
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    .NET is the latest edition of C++ from Microsoft. It is released and people are already using it. What your doing is like trying to compare the latest version of Linux to Windows 98.

    If your logic is so true, then I wonder lots of things like why every single game I buy seems to require DirectX (if for instance its of no use or concern in many games). Even the wargames I buy (including every single Matrix Game or ones I've looked at in production) use DirectX.

    So clearly I must have just bought the only 50 games that use DirectX by the only companies that use non-java products to code it. Or perhaps the game boxes and websites are lying to us?

    Perhaps you should get back to debate the original issue which wasn't which was better but that C++/DirectX is whats predominately used in the development of Commercial Games, by a landslide factor. Convince us all that it is really something else.

    But since we are getting nowhere at all this lets just stop.

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 112
    - 4/21/2003 11:31:13 PM   
    Veldor


    Posts: 1531
    Joined: 12/29/2002
    From: King's Landing
    Status: offline     		Guys, I think we all need to start petitioning Matrix Games to release two versions of Combat Leader and each of their upcoming titles.

    The first one should be just for PBEM and/or Network play.

    The second would be for those that want to play against an AI. It would use the same graphics as the first but be coded from scratch so as to include and optimize the way the AI functions and would have a different interface than the first due to what is necessary for an AI.

    This makes SO much sense I don't know why Matrix hadn't thought of releasing all their games in this format before.

    Just like VASL and JASL.

    THIS was one of the original concerns I had! This is on-topic. Similar but competing products can be good for each other (such as Combat Leader and PC ASL both being around) but two versions of the same game with the same graphics but different interfaces remains stupid.

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 113
    - 4/22/2003 1:07:22 AM   
    Mac_MatrixForum


    Posts: 295
    Joined: 4/11/2000
    From: Espoo, Finland
    Status: offline     		[B]Veldor[/B]

    I get the feeling you don't want to discuss the pros/cons of programming languages for various purposes but want to draw this discussion into corporate MS vs. the rest of the world -war. That's ok, I'll just shut up if you are not interested.

    [B]larth[/B]

    I don't agree with all of your Java remarks but had you listed some in your FAQ I'd been more pleased ;). You seem to be the all too common C-programmer doing C++ case ;). Let me just say that abstractions is what programming (or any kind of useful formal notation) is about and creating programming languages is possibly the most powerful abstraction method and templates promise some of that. If C++ didn't have templates I'd have lost my interest years ago. Templates make it possible to do a level of meta-programming. It may be like what object oriented programming is in C (i.e. not pretty) but it sure has its uses. The impression I have of the Java generics is that they are nowhere near as powerful but that's something I'm not terribly interested about.

    [B]All[/B]

    If you want to discuss some details, perhaps you have ICQ/AIM.

    _____________________________

    Markku "Macroz" Rontu
    "Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 114
    - 4/22/2003 1:58:01 AM   
    Veldor


    Posts: 1531
    Joined: 12/29/2002
    From: King's Landing
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mac
    [B][B]Veldor[/B]

    I get the feeling you don't want to discuss the pros/cons of programming languages for various purposes but want to draw this discussion into corporate MS vs. the rest of the world -war. That's ok, I'll just shut up if you are not interested.[/B][/QUOTE]

    Actually I'd rather be discussing the original purpose of this thread (Computerizing ASL), but perhaps I will just start another thread for that purpose soon.

    Also its hard to debate when the other side is not very familiar with the product and languages you are advocating. This is all too common and I won't leave out the possibility that I am also not familiar with the absolute latest Java has to offer. I don't of course prefer it thus I'm far less likely to have used this or that addon or product feature than someone who is, and vica-versa.

    As for the MS discussion, to me it is very much the same issue. The core philosophy behind most Java users and a majority of Linux ones is a "lets see how much we can do without the big bad Microsoft". Even the "respected" authors in the link I posted talk about that. While everyone else's efforts are on simply beating Microsofts, Microsoft is allowed a "focused" effort on enhancing all their products and the integration between them.

    Business world aside, do you really think there is any real debate on whether to use C++ or Java for commercial games? I still stick to my original statement that it just isn't done very often (Java and/or non DirectX commercial games) and it would seem to me the only ones insisting on using Java for that purpose would be the "Use anything but Microsoft" types because there is far more lost than gained otherwise.

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 115
    - 4/22/2003 8:04:33 PM   
    Les_the_Sarge_9_1

     

    Posts: 4392
    Joined: 12/29/2000
    Status: offline     		I am not sure that the thread has died out or lost it's purpose, but I would like to thank you guys for giving me a very good thread to read.

    I think we can all agree, that the material has been interesting at the very least.

    Some of the points have been a bit over my head, and most assuredly out of my reach. But it has been nice hearing the views. I think you guys all basically seem to know your materials.

    I feel compelled to comment, that the computer industry is still fairly young. It has gone through a handful of distinct growth spurts if I am not mistaken.

    I can recall my buddies dad fussing on a Vic 20 and thinking it was fairly cool. I remember the machines in highschool, and how there was always a rush at lunchtime to claim a machine just so we could play the most bland of games.
    Then noticing how powerful a Commodore 64 seemed, and how life would magically become so much more cool if I could find a way to get one.
    My own first computer was an IBM PS1 which I thought was a major item when I set it up. It was clearly so much more capable than some dumb ole pre 90's computer.

    I got a 486 a few years after the 386, because the 386 was holding me back. Now I look at that machine sitting at my friends place (traded it for a washer dryer that is no longer here either), and realise how far down the food chain it is too.

    I am still in debt for the very powerful 300MMX system I purchased, which I long ago upgraded to the point only the printer and this keyboard remain of the original purchase. 300 processor speed, I was positive nothing could ever be wrong with it.

    Then my buddy insisted on my being able to run XP so I could do some light clerical work for him. XP made me upgrade. He was fairly frivolous with funds that christmas and my system ended up with an 800 celron and a heap o ram.

    But today I sit here thinking, yes my sister could dump her P4 2 gig processor with the 60 gig drive on me when she finishes paying it off (claimed she was just going to buy a new more powerful one). Even if it is one of the useless Dell modules that can't be modified.
    Trouble is, I would not be able to stick my dvd drive or cd burner drive or video card in it (say what you want, but Dell sucks when they make machines you can't open casually).

    Ok by now you are wondering does Les have a point, and just what the hell is it :)

    From start to finish, my life with computers has really only been 12-13 years. That is not really a very long time in some ways.
    Compare that with other things, and it is possible to envision a future where computers could branch off in a zillion differing directions.

    Computers are a combination of hardware tech and software tech. The hardware has gone amazingly far since I first started using one.
    Somehow though, the software doesn't seem to have progressed the same amount.

    I have gone from a 33 processor, to seeing a 2 gig processor as being atypical.
    I have seen hard drives go from 200 megs, to 100 gigs.
    Ram from 5 megs, to several hundreds of megs.
    My friend just got a video card, that is actually faster than his main board processor. And it has more ram than I thought possible.

    Software, well I once thought windows 3.1 was very user friendly. It sure made telling the computer things easier. Then we were given Win 95, and we no longer had to assume windows and dos were separate.
    Games now have graphics, that actually can mimic visually the real thing, instead of granular images.

    But has software really truely done anything extra special since (I have zero idea if it has).

    I am waiting for interesting stuff myself.

    Revolutionary would be my computer being able to imitate "thinking", not just following a predesigned check list process. I am completely unable to see what would be needed for that.
    I think that it would be comparable to the creation of Windows though.

    I think Java and C++ (and all the rest) will in time get relegated to being just "old stuff" from when the user had to input archaic looking code to make software do anything.

    Maybe I am just dreaming.

    Currently though, I am seeing the discussion here being in line with arguing what is best to write books with, an ink quill or a ball point gel tip pen or a pencil or a ball point Bic ink pen or an Erasermate.
    Each one is incomparable to the ability to compose on a word processor for instance.

    Our computer programmers need to start pushing the frontiers of what it is to program in ways undreamed of.

    _____________________________

    I LIKE that my life bothers them,
    Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 116
    - 4/22/2003 10:46:42 PM   
    Veldor


    Posts: 1531
    Joined: 12/29/2002
    From: King's Landing
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
    [B]But has software really truely done anything extra special since (I have zero idea if it has).[/B][/QUOTE]

    Advances in software and computing in general are responsible for the greatly heightened productivity in nearly ever business out there. The examples are too numerous to even list. "AI" may still be looked at as a failure for games, but in the business world it has met with much more success. Gone are the days of paying someone to research things, the "software" analyzes and makes intelligent decisions for you. One simple example being what sales your stores should run.

    And that simple example wouldn't be possible if there weren't, in turn, software that could collect in real-time sales data from all your stores located throughout the US or even the world. And so on. Software has had a profound effect on how business is fundamentally even done, a hundred or thousand times over.

    [QUOTE][B]
    I am waiting for interesting stuff myself.
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    Perhaps for the home user, games remain the most "viable" and "visible" use for a home computer. But what about:

    *TurboTax which now lets you do you taxes yourself.
    *MS Money or Quicken to balance your checkbook and otherwise manage your finances yourself.
    *Photo & Video Editing Software you can use yourself.
    *Education Software to teach your children
    *Home Automation for security, electric, and so on management.

    And many many more...

    [QUOTE][B]
    Revolutionary would be my computer being able to imitate "thinking", not just following a predesigned check list process.
    [/B][/QUOTE]
    Depends upon the model used for AI. Chess-like programs and many wargames often use a "minimax" type model. It can be very effective, but in PC terms (or at least to AI guys) it really isnt true AI. Because the modern concept of AI requires other elements that that model could never incorporate. One somewhat extreme example when used in connection with game AI would be the ability for the AI to "learn". So that regardless of how good the AI is when you buy the game, it gets better as you play it. So your AI might be better than mine for the same game based on how much you play or what you did or didnt do when you did play. A truly "unique" and "skilled" opponent. It is and isn't hard at the same time (Ok its HARD).

    [QUOTE][B]I think Java and C++ (and all the rest) will in time get relegated to being just "old stuff" from when the user had to input archaic looking code to make software do anything.[/B][/QUOTE]

    Well perhaps from anyway we see or use them now, but more than likely the names will be caried on just as the "Windows" name will probably always exist for MS OS's. What your really talking about is whats called a "higher level language" the higher the level of language, the more like English it is, the lower the level the more like machine language it is (0's & 1's). Thats a bit over simplified but you get the point. There are reasons why higher level languages haven't overtaken lower level ones (for instance if there isn't a "word" for what you want in the higher level one, its not as easy to just create it as it would be in a lower level language).

    But essentially those are obstacles that will definitely be eventually overcome. My own mostly unshared belief is that hardware and software is fine. Whats most deficient is the interface to the computer as it stands. Thats refering to the "monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc". Computing has moved beyond all of that but we are still stuck with all that. Monitors are still too small (I'm thinking Star Trek with your whole desk being a screen). Voice Recognition needs to be taken much further (the technology is there it's just not being "interfaced" right or implemented into software right. Other input devices exist or can be created.

    At a very base level those are the most important elements of a computer as that is what you see and touch and how information is fed to the computer and returned from it. (For instance way way back when there was no monitor, just a printer and thats how the computer talked back to you). It needs to advance before other things will.

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 117
    - 4/22/2003 11:41:50 PM   
    Les_the_Sarge_9_1

     

    Posts: 4392
    Joined: 12/29/2000
    Status: offline     		I liked your remarks with regards to interface Veldor, I agree, nothing much new has been done to link me to the computer beyond mouse and keyboard.

    I think though you get a near miss on the first comments in your post though.

    True computers have radically altered how a lot of things get done, but still, nothing about that option has changed much recently.

    The only big major advance I have seen recently in computers vs the old way is with CGI actually.
    In the last few years, as never before, computer applications have been able to make actors question their role or purpose especially stunt actors. Why take a risk, when you can just make it up on a computer.

    Today's movies can deliver stunts and action scenes, that 10 years ago were a forget not possible prospect. Now, films have sequences that the viewer has a hard time determining the real from the image created on a computer.

    In the business world, about all computers have done in a radical way, is allow cashiers to process goods without performing more than a casual pass in front of a scanner (it always gets interesting seeing staff handle power outages though).
    The computer cash registers process incredible sums of useful data the office gets lots of milage from.

    The current trend in airline travel might further promote the popularity of computer conferencing eliminating a need for business types to even travel in the first place. That might create a need for fast responsive software.

    Hopefully the game world can get in on that technology for interactive wargaming.
    Right now the scene for online wargaming doesn't overly impress me.
    I can have fun playing solo on my machine here. But currently linking up two wargamers in real time on the internet is not something as easy to do as is assumed. That and I have heard enough grumbles about the security of the files while being exchanged between gamers.
    It only takes one bad exerience with a questionable game, to completely destroy a person's faith in a game being worth it.

    But I don't think software has done anything to immensely radical to business in a major new way recently.

    Information media has certainly been affected though. This forum is a good example. When I began wargaming in the early 70's you found out about wargames by visiting the local game selling retailer. And that was it.

    If you were lucky, the store had a new copy of magazines like the General or Dragon. I often found out about games only after they had been advertised in a wargame publication.
    And I had the choice, buy the item off the shelf and determine if it was any good AFTER I had bought it.

    Today the public can find out about a game while it is being designed and even impact how it will appear when finished by direct fan support input. And a game will live or die based on how it is recieved electronically.
    Even board games are essentially now sold as an online function. MMP sells fine games, and there appears little if any point in looking for anything they sell on a retail shelf. Why expend the effort.

    I currently have a subscription to Maclean's Magazine (Canada's new weekly). I have no intention of renewing it when it runs out though. The magazine appears in it's entirety online. Why wait for something in print when I can read it the second it is released on my computer.

    _____________________________

    I LIKE that my life bothers them,
    Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 118
    - 4/23/2003 12:01:19 AM   
    Veldor


    Posts: 1531
    Joined: 12/29/2002
    From: King's Landing
    Status: offline     		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
    [B]I liked your remarks with regards to interface Veldor, I agree, nothing much new has been done to link me to the computer beyond mouse and keyboard.

    I think though you get a near miss on the first comments in your post though. [/B][/QUOTE]

    I'm talking a bit beyond the cash register. Perhaps "Corporate America" would be a better term than "business".

    I'm not sure how you can even comment on that aspect as I thought you made furniture or something of the sort.

    There are numerous examples though of true "computer revolution" in Corporate America. Really, or I wouldn't be making what I do and the company I work for wouldn't be kept so busy.

    How about the convergence of voice and data as just another example? The ability of computers and computer networks to completely 100% eliminate the need for traditional phone systems, phone lines, and so on. This has only come about in the last two years or so and is already sweaping through corporate america, even in the down economy, due to its tremendous cost advantages, feature advantages, and so on.

    Cisco IP phones are like mini-computers. They have IP addresses and MAC addresses and plug into a CAT5 network jack hooked into the same ethernet switch that your pc is. You can go anywhere in the company, login to any phone, and instantly all your custom buttons are there, all your speed dials, all your lines re-routed there, etc. If you don't like the "physical" phone open up your pc app and you have a "soft" phone right there as well. Click a contact in outlook and your physical phone dials it automatically. Your voicemail shows up in outlook like an email, your email is read to you like voicemail when you call in. And thats just a few features of 100's gained.

    But these are things the average person will never see, most will never even read about, but it is happening. Most advancements in computing don't come to the home user first, its always been that way...

    _____________________________


    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 119
    - 4/23/2003 12:19:46 AM   
    Les_the_Sarge_9_1

     

    Posts: 4392
    Joined: 12/29/2000
    Status: offline     		"I'm not sure how you can even comment on that aspect as I thought you made furniture or something of the sort"

    Understandable confusion Veldor hehe.

    Yes a large swath of my work experience is in furniture (let me tell you after seeing what a computer can produce automatically with a laser it is sure unnerving competing with computers eh).

    But alas I am A opinionated (no really I am heeh), and B I stick my nose into damned near every subject eventually (I read to much it seems).

    But yes I suppose the corporate experiences might be a bit different than the more front end business employments of software concepts.

    My sister is currently seeking access to her companies main system so she can make extra cash by just loggin on from home.

    I think the world might become a lot smaller for those who are in a position to exploit the changes.

    Actually the original reason I got my first computer was so I could write professionally and have a portal to the publishing world (sure beats the expense of submitting material in hard copy).

    _____________________________

    I LIKE that my life bothers them,
    Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

    (in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)
    Post #: 120
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