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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the West >> Tech Support >> Kicked butt and still lost

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Kicked butt and still lost - 7/3/2016 7:31:49 PM

tex_ka95

Posts: 89
Joined: 11/27/2007
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I just finished playing the campaign game as the Germans. I kicked the allies off Sicily three times, the Allies never advanced beyond the Gothic line in Italy, and when the game ended they held all of four hex's on the coast of France (they never held more than 6).

Yet somehow the Allies still won a decisive victory with over 10K points!

Any ideas how that could happen?

Thanks,

Erik

Post #: 1

RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/3/2016 7:33:25 PM

zakblood

Posts: 22687
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without a save no i'd guess

(in reply to tex_ka95)

Post #: 2

RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/3/2016 7:46:03 PM

tex_ka95

Posts: 89
Joined: 11/27/2007
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Attached. Let me know if you need an earlier one.

Thanks

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 3

RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/3/2016 7:49:31 PM

zakblood

Posts: 22687
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thanks

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by zakblood -- 7/3/2016 7:54:51 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/3/2016 8:00:48 PM

zakblood

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here's some more info or maybe a reason

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by zakblood -- 7/3/2016 8:03:23 PM >

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RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/3/2016 8:01:32 PM

zakblood

Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
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with start up options, what did you use? what level of difficulty etc?

while it doesn't say what the Germans should do, for me it's stopping them (the allies etc) getting there goals without excessive losses in the process, so yes you can win a battle but loose the war on the amount of units lost doing the battles in the process, your losses are very high for the returns gained, while the allies can afford the losses in planes, tanks and men, you really can't at this time of the war and where you are, then again it's only my opinion, the developer needs to chip in and fully answer as i may be wrong, it's just my opinion as a player and tester, but not fully into all the in's and outs of the whole game either

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by zakblood -- 7/3/2016 8:09:12 PM >

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RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/3/2016 8:17:10 PM

tex_ka95

Posts: 89
Joined: 11/27/2007
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Thanks for looking over this. I think I did the standard difficulty and pretty much everything else i kept at default.

So turn 65 is Italy surrendering. Turn 78 is when I completed my withdrawal from S. italy and the Allies took over everything in the south all at once. most of the other losses appear to be airbases and flak from the Soviets creeping westward and the occasional unit that I disbanded.

Seems hardly like a decisive victory for the allies to me.

The final score doesn't matter...I had fun getting there. Just weird.

Erik

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Post #: 7

RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/3/2016 8:25:30 PM

zakblood

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Joined: 10/4/2012
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fun is all that matters, you need to control the terrain and make them pay more for the land they take, and give poor ground for less costs, more of a defensive battle than a campaign in it's own rights, as backwards is the only options open for the Germans with the strengths the allies have in the air and or on land, it is a good game so have fun playing and learning it

as defeat is a good teacher

< Message edited by zakblood -- 7/3/2016 8:28:17 PM >

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RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/3/2016 9:03:48 PM

Helpless

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According to VP screen Germans lost (or Allied gained) lots of garrison/partisan points - 12643. Allies are not getting points for the German losses in campaign game.

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/3/2016 10:15:30 PM

tex_ka95

Posts: 89
Joined: 11/27/2007
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That would explain it. Strange way to lose a game.

Thanks for the help guys.

(in reply to Helpless)

Post #: 10

RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/4/2016 4:21:25 AM

shermanny

Posts: 1624
Joined: 12/11/2007
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Garrison points are the game's way of prompting the German player to conform to Hitler's determination to guard everything and to keep a mobile reserve. In hindsight, the Germans could hardly have done worse, and probably would have had much more success, if they had gambled and stacked up on some one or two beaches that seemed likely Allied targets.

While this strategy does make for an interesting what-if experiment, it doesn't make for all that good a game. Almost everything will ride on whether the Germans have guessed right. If they have, then the Allies cannot gain a beachhead and can only retarget their invasion forces and hope for better luck in August. Since an August invasion comes too late in the year for any big success in France, the game, though not the war, is effectively over. If the Germans guess wrong, of course, and leave a targeted Pas-de-Calais open, their forces will be out of position and the Allies will have a quick trip to Berlin.

If the Germans stack up on the beaches nearest Germany and let the Allies walk on at Normandy, they are in too good a position to effect a smooth withdrawal to the river lines near the German-French border. Again, the game collapses.

So the design incorporates this strategic delusion of Hitler's, that he could cover everything, and more or less writes it into the rules.

What would happen to GGWITE if the Soviets got even one week to adjust their dispositions before the Germans struck? That, too, would more or less ensure a Soviet victory: simply withdraw from the zones where pockets are now built into the game, and you save nearly 100 divisions.

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RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/4/2016 4:39:22 AM

tex_ka95

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Joined: 11/27/2007
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Thanks Shermanny. I THINK I had all the occupied territories fairly well garrisoned. I definitely paid close attention to the Garrison requirements screen and did keep all the sectors and cities occupied to 100% or more MOST of the time, probably at least 90$ of the time, but maybe I am missing something glaring. it's definitely not clear to me what I should have done more of, but I guess I should start by closely reading Garrison the section of the manual.

I guess something had to be done to make the game challenging since we already know all the mistakes Hitler made and don't plan to repeat them. Strangely, I've noticed the computer opponent it pretty careful and avoid risk. Playing both the Normandy to the Rhine scenario and the campaign as the Germans, the computer withdrew from France in good order as soon as it was clear that I was breaking out of my beach head. No Mortaine or any other risky maneuvers.

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Post #: 12

RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/5/2016 12:41:52 AM

Joel Billings

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From: Santa Rosa, CA
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It's more than just the high command orders. In 1943, the Germans didn't know that the Allies were limited in their forces for a major landing in France. With hindsight and knowing the units available, the German player could choose to send large forces to Italy and strip France of many units if they see a large Allied force in Italy. There's also the issue of partisans, but that's probably less a factor than the unknown of Allied capabilities.

Having given up 13000 points to garrison VPs you were going to lose. We had considered having a rule if the value got too high (maybe a few thousand points) of having a message that you have automatically lost as you have been relieved of command for failing to follow orders. We decided against this. There is a warning that comes up at the end of your turn telling you that you are not meeting garrison requirements. German players should go into the game assuming they need to always meet garrison requirements, because not doing so will be very expensive in points.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

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Post #: 13

RE: Kicked butt and still lost - 7/5/2016 1:43:57 AM

tex_ka95

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Joined: 11/27/2007
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I just read over the Garrison section of the manual, and I think my problems were:

#1 I was unaware that the cities needing garrison's changed over time
#2 I was confused by/unaware of the differing requirements for cities to be garrison'ed by both combat units and security units. I took the 100% that appeared in the main interface in the right upper corner to mean the city was adequately garrisoned but I guess that only means the security unit requirement was met, not the combat unit.

I'll def need to keep a closer eye on this next time. i've been playing this game for over a year and still learning new things.

thanks

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 14