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RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/29/2016 7:26:41 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Well, just off of load cost... Type 1 tanks are load 11, and 1943 IJA squads are load 17. So without checking the specifics, I would assume the squads are actually more expensive. It's kind of apples/oranges though.

Tanks and vehicles and such have an actual load cost which is a multiple of their load cost in the database.

Matt

So do squads.

I looked it up in the interest of not remaining vague. I had to resort to a google/forum search because the manual is obtuse on the matter of the supply cost of replacements (it's not in the obvious sections I checked first, but I know it's in there somewhere). The supply cost of taking a replacement is its load cost, so a tank only costs 11 supplies compared to the infantry's 17.

For producing each of those devices...
It costs 11 Vehicle points and 11 Manpower to make each tank. This is 66 HI.
It costs 17 Armaments points and 17 Manpower to make each squad. This is 102HI.

So it's cheaper to make and replace a tank than it is to make and replace a squad. I just had to check to make sure that squad-type devices weren't cheaper than their load cost.

(in reply to US87891)

Post #: 31

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/30/2016 1:42:56 AM

PaxMondo

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True, but you have more ARM than VEH pts typically.

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Post #: 32

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/30/2016 2:30:50 AM

Lowpe

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Some of you guys think that IJA tanks are worthless are nuts....you can't use them unsupported, but they are great for several reasons:

1. mobile firebrigade to shore up defenses until more foot & artillery arrives
2. as AT vehicles...very important
3. can dig in in non base terrain much faster than artilley provided there are troops there
4. are not targeted until last by naval bombardments (incredibly valuable...even lousy armored car units...get them with plenty of other units on an atoll behind level 5 forts and watch them hold the atoll).
5. In combat mode, with other units (especially larger units) generally survive aerial bombing in good shape
6. Against the Chinese
7. Mobile, mobile, mobile.

Having said that, I don't know about having over 325 points allocated to their manufacture, but it is a mod I am not up to speed on.

I would watch my supply closely...

Ok, back to my games...

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 33

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/30/2016 3:54:57 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Some of you guys think that IJA tanks are worthless are nuts....you can't use them unsupported, but they are great for several reasons:

1. mobile firebrigade to shore up defenses until more foot & artillery arrives
2. as AT vehicles...very important
3. can dig in in non base terrain much faster than artilley provided there are troops there
4. are not targeted until last by naval bombardments (incredibly valuable...even lousy armored car units...get them with plenty of other units on an atoll behind level 5 forts and watch them hold the atoll).
5. In combat mode, with other units (especially larger units) generally survive aerial bombing in good shape
6. Against the Chinese
7. Mobile, mobile, mobile.

Having said that, I don't know about having over 325 points allocated to their manufacture, but it is a mod I am not up to speed on.

I would watch my supply closely...

Ok, back to my games...

Possibly so, but they really have no offensive value as they can't win an attack vs any good morale unit save the Chinese. Mobility is nice but you only need so many mobile units when on the defensive. My point is that I hate Japanese tank units until 1/43. After that I give them little thought as I can defeat them as easily as any infantry unit. It is not that they have no value. My question was does it pay to constantly rebuild them? Most games do not go deep into 1944 so very few Japanese players give enough thought to the end game where resources become just as important as units or aircraft. Mobility is also a two edged sword as a defeated mobile unit that retreats through or into woods can be run down by infantry that actually move faster in that type of terrain.

I do think they have great value on atolls though.

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Post #: 34

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/30/2016 10:50:09 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

True, but you have more ARM than VEH pts typically.

Well, the cost of ARM/VEH is the same... so you can have however much you want of each, in the long run

. I know I do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Some of you guys think that IJA tanks are worthless are nuts....you can't use them unsupported, but they are great for several reasons:

1. mobile firebrigade to shore up defenses until more foot & artillery arrives
2. as AT vehicles...very important
3. can dig in in non base terrain much faster than artilley provided there are troops there
4. are not targeted until last by naval bombardments (incredibly valuable...even lousy armored car units...get them with plenty of other units on an atoll behind level 5 forts and watch them hold the atoll).
5. In combat mode, with other units (especially larger units) generally survive aerial bombing in good shape
6. Against the Chinese
7. Mobile, mobile, mobile.

Having said that, I don't know about having over 325 points allocated to their manufacture, but it is a mod I am not up to speed on.

I would watch my supply closely...

Ok, back to my games...

Possibly so, but they really have no offensive value as they can't win an attack vs any good morale unit save the Chinese. Mobility is nice but you only need so many mobile units when on the defensive. My point is that I hate Japanese tank units until 1/43. After that I give them little thought as I can defeat them as easily as any infantry unit. It is not that they have no value. My question was does it pay to constantly rebuild them? Most games do not go deep into 1944 so very few Japanese players give enough thought to the end game where resources become just as important as units or aircraft. Mobility is also a two edged sword as a defeated mobile unit that retreats through or into woods can be run down by infantry that actually move faster in that type of terrain.

I do think they have great value on atolls though.

I do think the IJA tank units are far less important once they can no longer conduct offensives, but that says more about the quality of the Allied devices they are facing than anything else. The difference between fighting 1942 Allied units and 1944 Allied units is at least an order of magnitude.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 35

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/31/2016 12:58:55 AM

rustysi

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You are talking apples and oranges here.

This is wrong.

quote:

It costs 17 Armaments points and 17 Manpower to make each squad. This is 102HI.

Top of p234 in the manual.

"When a non-vehicle weapon or squad is required to fill out or replace a ground unit element
armament points are expended. 1 armament point and manpower points equal to the load cost
of the squad will be expended from their pools for each squad. For weapons, armament points
and manpower points will be expended equal to the load cost of the device."

The cost for a squad is only 1 armament point plus the stated manpower points, in the above case 17. So a squad costs 6 HI, not 102.

The cost for the armor is correct as stated.

So its obvious armor is quite a bit more expensive than flesh, as it should be. That may be crude, but its a fact.

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(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 36

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/31/2016 1:43:42 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

You are talking apples and oranges here.

This is wrong.

quote:

It costs 17 Armaments points and 17 Manpower to make each squad. This is 102HI.

Top of p234 in the manual.

"When a non-vehicle weapon or squad is required to fill out or replace a ground unit element
armament points are expended. 1 armament point and manpower points equal to the load cost
of the squad will be expended from their pools for each squad. For weapons, armament points
and manpower points will be expended equal to the load cost of the device."

The cost for a squad is only 1 armament point plus the stated manpower points, in the above case 17. So a squad costs 6 HI, not 102.

The cost for the armor is correct as stated.

So its obvious armor is quite a bit more expensive than flesh, as it should be. That may be crude, but its a fact.

I knew it, but forgot it. I've called people out on this before, but couldn't find the threads where I did so

. To be honest, I don't worry about it. HI is never going to be the choke point for me.

Tanks more expensive in HI, cheaper in supplies since their load cost is lower.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 8/31/2016 1:44:36 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/31/2016 2:21:41 AM

rustysi

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quote:

To be honest, I don't worry about it. HI is never going to be the choke point for me.

Tanks more expensive in HI, cheaper in supplies since their load cost is lower.

Hey, to each their own. I too like to play around with my Asian Panzer Corps.

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Post #: 38

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/31/2016 8:20:01 AM

GetAssista

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There is one thing that bothers me most with IJA tank regiments - they are obnoxiously slow at getting more experience, to the point of possible bug.

I had a perfect test in the AI game where all the available mobile forces were sieging SF. After couple months of large-scale fighting all IDs and armored divs emerged with 90+ xp. A dozen of tank regiments all remained in the 50s and low 60s. It's not like they had extensive losses, and they took part in roughly twice more fights than each ID, because they R&R so quick. Yet..

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Post #: 39

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/31/2016 3:31:28 PM

Yaab

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Check in Tracker if their unit IDs are higher than inf/tank divisions. I guess units with lower IDs are targeted first in land combats, thus higher exp gains for them.

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Post #: 40

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/31/2016 5:10:45 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Check in Tracker if their unit IDs are higher than inf/tank divisions. I guess units with lower IDs are targeted first in land combats, thus higher exp gains for them.

I believe the targeting is more or less random, not based on unit ID. Someone with knowledge spoke up about this a few years ago.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 8/31/2016 5:11:31 PM >

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Post #: 41

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 8/31/2016 9:07:20 PM

Alpha77

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Tanks will gain more exp if fighting "in the open", but not at city sieges.... (imho). I have a tank regiment with 76 exp I just checked this is ok. The ones in China mostly doing city combat they are not good in exp. I do not know the starting number anymore.

Btw: Vs. the AI Japanese tanks are good esp. the Type1 medium, I believe the AI will not send own tanks or At guns when it detects many enemy tanks. A human will react more to enemy tanks and try to bring in stuff to fight them. And the Allies have enough in their arsenal, so this may be the reason IJA tanks will not perform as good in PBM.

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Post #: 42

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 9/1/2016 2:35:15 AM

wdolson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Check in Tracker if their unit IDs are higher than inf/tank divisions. I guess units with lower IDs are targeted first in land combats, thus higher exp gains for them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I believe the targeting is more or less random, not based on unit ID. Someone with knowledge spoke up about this a few years ago.

For AE they are. They were ranked by ID in WitP, but we randomized them in AE, though non-combat units will go to the bottom of the stack.

I don't know why armor units would get less experience than infantry, the armor should be shuffled and randomized with the infantry units.

Bill

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(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 43

RE: Tank Production - Japan - 9/1/2016 2:50:08 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Check in Tracker if their unit IDs are higher than inf/tank divisions. I guess units with lower IDs are targeted first in land combats, thus higher exp gains for them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I believe the targeting is more or less random, not based on unit ID. Someone with knowledge spoke up about this a few years ago.

For AE they are. They were ranked by ID in WitP, but we randomized them in AE, though non-combat units will go to the bottom of the stack.

I don't know why armor units would get less experience than infantry, the armor should be shuffled and randomized with the infantry units.

Bill

My instinct for the tank regiments specified was just that they may suffer the loss of a couple of devices, which are then replaced - potentially negating any XP gain they may have had as their XP slides back towards the national average.

The only reason this could potentially be different between tank regiment and Inf division/tank division would be that we know that there is a greater chance for smaller units to get hit harder (so greater chance they have to replace devices). I suspect the OP is suffering from poor die rolls, more or less.

(in reply to wdolson)

Post #: 44