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Picking off USN carriers at Guadalcanal

 
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Picking off USN carriers at Guadalcanal - 8/18/2016 3:10:44 PM   
adaman77

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 10/6/2015
Status: offline 		I've been playing the Guadalcanal scenario a lot as Japan (starting over often as I learn), and I notice that often the Allied AI will park all three carriers (in separate TFs) at 116, 137 (two hexes east of Tulagi) to cover their landings in the first week of the scenario. My response to this has been to park several subs in that hex to try to get shots on the carriers.

However, there are many days when they don't even attempt to fire a shot at a carrier, or anyone even. From the reports it looks like they're being spotted routinely by Allied planes and are thus unable to get in among the CTFs and take a good shot at a carrier.

My question is, how can I maximize the number of shots my subs get off at the carriers? Should I have my subs on patrol routes, where they go several hexes away (3?), linger for a day to lower their detection levels, and then come back? Are there diminishing returns for the number of subs in a hex, or should I really be pouring subs into this hex, like 5 or 6?
Post #: 1
RE: Picking off USN carriers at Guadalcanal - 8/18/2016 5:09:22 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		What do you mean when you 'park' your subs? If you just send them to a particular hex-destination w/ remain on station orders, they won't do much, or even react. At minimum, they should be in a 1-hex patrol zone. Your idea of a multiple-hex PZ is a good one. Keep them moving, they'll have a better chance of detecting a target.

There's no reason why you shouldn't pack the target hex w/ subs, but don't use multi-sub wolf-pack TFs, the game disadvantages them.

(in reply to adaman77)
Post #: 2
RE: Picking off USN carriers at Guadalcanal - 8/18/2016 6:50:36 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		jmalter is correct that you will get no reaction by sitting in a destination hex with remain on station order.

You have to be patrolling to be able to react.

Patrol a single hex if there is limited ASW threat. Expand the patrol to multiple hexes to remove Detection Levels from aircraft.

There is no benefit from flooding a hex with multiple TFs.

As jmalter states the prevailing wisdom is there is nothing to be gained by multi-sub TFs, but I disagree with that stance.

I have experimented with two subs in a TF. Only one of the two will participate in any given encounter, but I have found what anecdotally seems to be an increased chance of a follow up encounter in the same turn by the TF resulting in a another encounter for the sub that didn't participate in the first encounter.

The best teacher in this game is experimentation.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 3
RE: Picking off USN carriers at Guadalcanal - 8/18/2016 8:04:36 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adaman77

I've been playing the Guadalcanal scenario a lot as Japan (starting over often as I learn), and I notice that often the Allied AI will park all three carriers (in separate TFs) at 116, 137 (two hexes east of Tulagi) to cover their landings in the first week of the scenario. My response to this has been to park several subs in that hex to try to get shots on the carriers.

However, there are many days when they don't even attempt to fire a shot at a carrier, or anyone even. From the reports it looks like they're being spotted routinely by Allied planes and are thus unable to get in among the CTFs and take a good shot at a carrier.

My question is, how can I maximize the number of shots my subs get off at the carriers? Should I have my subs on patrol routes, where they go several hexes away (3?), linger for a day to lower their detection levels, and then come back? Are there diminishing returns for the number of subs in a hex, or should I really be pouring subs into this hex, like 5 or 6?


Read my posts in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3972789&mpage=1&key=wolf%2Cpack�

The principles equally apply to submarine operations in the Guadalcanal scenario.

Alfred

(in reply to adaman77)
Post #: 4
RE: Picking off USN carriers at Guadalcanal - 8/18/2016 8:41:32 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		The AI is of course quite stupid. Don't be like the AI. And don't expect any human to play like the AI.

I don't know why everyone quotes ARMY generals in what is clearly Naval or Air matters. Especially when there are so many "greats" to follow or learn from in the 2nd WW. Sprunace, Kinkade , Burke, AB Cunnignham, Tanaka , Moosebrugger, and on and on. Especially those who can be aggressive when needed, and not when it's not. ALL AGRESSION , ALL THE TME is not good. There are many conditions when someone like Halsey can get you in a world of hurt.

Carriers , like aircraft them selves are very powerful, yet extremely fragile devices. They're greatest asset is that they are a "airfield with no fixed mailing address". They need to get in, hit their targets with a vengeance , then disappear before the smoke clears. Leaving your CV's in one location is an open invitation for your opponent, human or AI , to murder them.

Instead of Lee, Jackson or Forrest , one might recall the words of the late Muhammad Ali (AKA Cassius Clay) "float like a butterfly and sting like a bee". THEN RUN like hell, as if the whole hive is after you, for it soon will be.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 5
RE: Picking off USN carriers at Guadalcanal - 8/18/2016 8:43:24 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		Now subs, are another matter. Move patrol, search and try to lay in ambush. Hans and Alfred are two old "Grandmasters" of this game. Listen to them. CAREFULLY.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 6
RE: Picking off USN carriers at Guadalcanal - 8/18/2016 10:46:34 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

"float like a butterfly and sting like a bee"


That's only part of the quote, the rest goes something like this...

"the hands can't hit what the eye can't see..."

Which fits in the game, can't hit your CV's if he can't find 'em.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 7
RE: Picking off USN carriers at Guadalcanal - 8/19/2016 12:28:33 AM   
adaman77

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 10/6/2015
Status: offline 		Thanks so much everyone for the responses!

I've played around with it some more and I've found that, indeed, being on patrols definitely helps to encourage attacks on enemy TFs. I didn't know you could do a 1-hex patrol zone, that's proved quite handy.

I have another question (rather general): what do you do about the general attrition that occurs in daily air operations? Not just in being the attacker, but also the defender. I find it hard to judge who's winning in terms of attrition, or to judge the effectiveness of a sustained bombing operation. When do you decide "It's not worth losing fighters every day trying to turn back these bombers", and when do you decide "I'm losing bombers way too quickly, this isn't worth it"?

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 8
RE: Picking off USN carriers at Guadalcanal - 8/19/2016 4:39:01 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		Good questions, but I'm afraid you'll have to determine those for yourself. Everyone's style of play is different and what I do might have others cringing. It depends on so many factors whose to say where you give in or soldier on. Just play around and have fun.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to adaman77)
Post #: 9
RE: Picking off USN carriers at Guadalcanal - 8/19/2016 5:43:47 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		As rustysi says, it's always a judgement call. One of many considerations is, "Do I have enough replacement airframes & trained pilots in the pools to sustain this level of operations?" And, "If I use those reinforcements here, am I starving my guys in the battle over there, or delaying the start of my planned operations elsewhere?"

N.B., since this question was unrelated to your original post, it might've been better to put it in a new thread.

Also too, welcome to the forum!

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 10
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