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RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 7:15:15 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
I've just read another of your posts in which you say you have not purchased the game yet? It's like politics, if you don't vote, don't criticise.

(in reply to Timotheus)
Post #: 31
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 7:49:49 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Interesting post……

I don’t want to comment on the first part of the OP’s post. If that is the OP’s view then fine - although maybe would have been better served in the "Can we reduce the number of stickies?" thread.

I would make a few comments on the “parting shot” thoughts though.

Despite what some like to believe about this forum it is, in one way, no different to any other. The forum is made up of individuals and well, without wishing to state the obvious, people are people. That means this forum contains a range of personalities with a range of social skills, knowledge skills, gaming skills etc. There are active posters, lurkers, a reasonably diverse age range, helpers, irascibles, the pedantic, historians, ‘comedians’, friendly souls, and all with their opposites and shades of grey in between – hell we even have gorn-type lizard things etc. Yes WITP-AE has them all just like any forum (except perhaps the interplanetary creature).

What is true is that there are far more likeable, helpful, knowledgeable and friendly fellows (and lady) on this forum than there are the other sort. Sadly, as always in life – and on any forum - there are exceptions, and the forum has had its ‘problems’ but many of those have come and (thankfully) gone – and I don’t need to name names.

But to the specific point raised by the OP:

quote:

the impression I got in the forum is that it is made up of old guys, who have learned this game through years of effort and now want all the newbies to go through the same painful process they did, with as little help given as possible. "Why, I have walked to school uphill, in the snow, barefoot, in Alaska, and to learn WITPAE I had to type the manual on my typewriter myself!".


I have NEVER seen a request for help or information ignored. Yes the requests are, on occasion, met with a less than (I’ll use the word) ‘warm’ response and frustration where the helper is actually not helping because they have given the wrong advice! But although the delivery may be lacking, the wish to help is not. Maybe the OP was on the receiving end of one of those? I don’t know. But it is what it is – and on its own does not make the OP’s accusation true.

quote:

They feel like its an elite club and no new "scrubs" are welcome in it.


This I find really strange and can only imagine the OP hasn’t spent any time here. EVERY TIME there is a newcomer announcing they are taking up the game there is a string of welcoming follow-up posts.

Of all the forums on the Matrix site, this one is pretty unique. It has a long standing, well considered, successful game at its heart with plenty of AAR and a place where one can ask a question (on the game and history generally) and get a knowledgeable response. The moderator is respected and not given (too) much to do.

My personal No.1 game of choice is Matrix World in Flames. When that game was launched I wrote on that forum that I hoped its forum would become like this one over time. WITP-AE is a forum I originally came to for historical advice, got good feedback, bought the game, struggled with it, but stayed as a regular on the forum for a) the game (although I can’t play it I can enjoy the AAR and marvel at the intricacy) and b) the historical, and other topics, that crop up from time to time.

So to the OP – thanks for the thoughts, but I personally think you are wrong in your summarisation of the forum and the vast majority of those who are part of it.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/8/2016 7:53:05 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Timotheus)
Post #: 32
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 8:11:19 AM   
Steely Glint


Posts: 580
Joined: 9/23/2003
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

It is a test to sort out those who would be unable to muster the patience and tenacity to learn the game, and to save them from wasting precious time.


Excellent point. I have always advised the impatient to play shallower games than we do. If someone finds this forum difficult or unfriendly, then God help them in WiTP AE.

_____________________________

“It was a war of snap judgments and binary results—shoot or don’t, live or die.“

Wargamer since 1967. Matrix customer since 2003.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 33
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 8:17:14 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
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I agree with OP generic critic that the game as is not friendly for newcomers and has some hiding knowledge that should be known upfront - for a start the issues with Japanese CS upgrade to CVL - .

Alfred was doing a Manual upgrade just because things like that but we got no more feedback regarding it.


I don't agree with OP that the forum does not give feedback. A forum cannot be so active as this more than a decade if we include initial witp, without that. There are more than 600000 posts here.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 34
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 8:35:15 AM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline
Us kids don't have a problem with this forum and game.

Its sick!



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(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 35
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 12:07:27 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
I have no respect for those who want results without effort.

We old timers are old timers simply BECAUSE we invested the time the OP is so unwilling to invest.

Contrary to his ill informed opinion we openly share our knowledge of the game with newbies.

However, even newbies need to invest the effort to learn by doing.

Just a troll seeking to get under the skin of regulars for the dubious satisfaction of having gotten under someone's skin.

Adolescent to say the least.


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 36
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 1:01:30 PM   
dave sindel

 

Posts: 488
Joined: 3/13/2006
From: Millersburg, OH
Status: offline
As a relative newbie ( about 18 months or so with AE) I was extremely surprised at the thread title when I logged on this morning. My experience on this forum has always been positive. The willingness of the "veterans" to help on any question I have posted has been very gratifying.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 37
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 1:10:33 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey, I am NOT OLD

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 38
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 1:41:53 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
While I am happy that my old AAR was included as worth for sticky...I would say that this forum is one of the most helpful among wargaming forums. And one needs to only compare number of topics and posts on this forum to other wargame forums, be it Matrix or others, to gauge popularity.

Yes, sometimes people can get bit cranky, but generally discussions are amiable and helpful.

BTW, my old AAR is not 100% valid with newest patches been introduced, but it is help for tackling with Grand Campaign. When I got older WitP and then WitP-AE, I played couple of short scenarios for "tutorial" and went after that straight to Grand Campaign. "Sink or Swim"-experience.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 39
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 2:20:11 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
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Yes, but you are a Sardaukar and can beat Paul Atreides in PBEM with closed eyes. We newbies have it worse!

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 40
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 2:28:44 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey, I am NOT OLD


I do not want to play a detective, but your avatar is old, your signature is old, and your Primo Levi quote is old.

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 41
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 2:44:31 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

First, the design of the forum. First page is dominated by stickies, 95% of which are useless to both newbies and veterans.

Second, the top stickies should be resources to help newbies and intermediate (and vets too - lets not kid ourselves, even someone who played this for years still looks stuff up).

This is what should be stickied, on top:
jonboym Useful Info for Beginners
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157

Sardaukar's Newbie Tutorial AAR for Newbies
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2564541

Video tutorials for WITPAE by someone
https://sites.google.com/site/n01487477/Home

I do not see the need for any other stickies in the forum at all, unless I have missed another great tutorial for this game - in that case, sticky that also. And delete everything else - it's useless trash!

Note that the video tutorials from the last link were done on a computer system and windows version which existed before the Russo-Japanese war. In some videos he is broadcasting from the moon using 1960's technology, in others he is obviously in an underwater base in the Pacific hooking up through a 1970's ex-Soviet communication satellite to broadcast his voice.

What I am saying is that the quality of the voice(not the content!) is so bad that I can barely understand every other word he speaks!

The resolution of the (swf.... and other, weird types from 1980's files) videos is so bad that it is hard to read the actual words/base names on the maps!

After roughly a minute of a tutorial video, an air raid siren comes on and totally obliterates the gentleman's voice in every single video (either it's a Japanese air raid on Oz or a 1980's PC super-fan kicks in to cool the Sinclair Spectrum personal computer).
So after a minute, I cannot understand a single word that the tutorial mentor is saying...


As a parting shot across the bow, the impression I got in the forum is that it is made up of old guys, who have learned this game through years of effort and now want all the newbies to go through the same painful process they did, with as little help given as possible. "Why, I have walked to school uphill, in the snow, barefoot, in Alaska, and to learn WITPAE I had to type the manual on my typewriter myself!".

They feel like its an elite club and no new "scrubs" are welcome in it.

Trouble is, this is the worst thing that can happen to an entertainment product (computer game) from a business/marketing perspective.

That's it for my thoughts on the matrix WITPAE forum.



I believe I am fairly typical of the "old-timers" you speak of..We call ourselves "plankowners"...the ones who were here when Uncommon Valor was released.(The first to use this game engine prior to WITP-Vanilla).

If you will put your cursor on my name, you will be sent to the "members list" and will see the ability to check my previous posts.
In my postings, for instance, you will see as recent as last week my comments to one of those "newguys" you speak of, and see that I thanked him for joining us, for asking questions, and made it clear that "even I am able to learn from newer members"..

Like I said...I am typical, and you are bearing the weight of a large chip which in time may make you walk lopsided.

UPDATE:Just checked this WITP-AE Forum and indeed on 090716 (in another post) you stated you have not even acquired the game...because you are "waiting on a better sell".
Your longevity as a member of these forums has apparently NOT been with we who have the time invested in THIS game, WITP-AE.
You place an onus on those of us who play the game and expect us to sell it to you.
That is not our job and has nothing to do with "elitism".

As long as it takes to play even one scenario of this very detailed (and satisfying game), it may not produce the instant gratification you seek.



< Message edited by m10bob -- 9/8/2016 2:55:34 PM >


_____________________________




(in reply to Timotheus)
Post #: 42
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 2:54:24 PM   
pmelheck1

 

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/3/2003
From: Alabama
Status: offline
As someone who has been a member of the matrix forum all the way back to pacwar Matrix addition I have found these forums to be most civil. The only time things can get heated here at least for this forum is when some folks favorite ship is attempted to be examined critically and some rare folks pick up the banner of this or that ship would have won WW2 all by itself on all fronts land included except for horrible bad luck that resulted in it's sinking but without said bad luck it would have won the war! I don't post very often but do try to help when I can. At least in my case I have some areas of the game I am comfortable answering and others I prefer to let others with better knowledge answer unless no one has posted a response in a couple of hours then I'll take a crack at it. I too attempt to try and welcome all newcomers when I notice them. I do enjoy this forum and even when I am in a AE dry spell I keep watching the forum.

_____________________________


(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 43
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 3:09:51 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
My experience is is very very very different than that as posted by Timotheus.

In fact I would characterize my experience as "exactly the opposite" in every respect.

Further I would hope that any prospective new player to this game will read other comments newer players have posted from myself in different threads.

I have no idea if moderators lock, delete, suppress threads or censure certain posters but frankly this thread should be considered for all of these types of actions.








_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 44
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 3:19:20 PM   
Gandalf


Posts: 364
Joined: 12/15/2010
From: Jefferson City, MO
Status: offline
Just a careful editing of the thread title to:

This forum is terrible and unwelcoming NOT! by the moderators would suffice.

(in reply to Macclan5)
Post #: 45
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 3:22:31 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

While I am happy that my old AAR was included as worth for sticky..

BTW, my old AAR is not 100% valid with newest patches been introduced, but it is help for tackling with Grand Campaign. When I got older WitP and then WitP-AE, I played couple of short scenarios for "tutorial" and went after that straight to Grand Campaign. "Sink or Swim"-experience.



S...

Your old AAR thread whether current or not is still extremely valuable i.e. more than helpful.

It is 7 pages with practical examples of tactics / concepts / oob / results and above all strategic thoughts about limits / holding the line / opportunities to learn and exploit.

While a person can (I read) the manual, read the sticky threads, and play the tutorials, when you start a Grand Campaign you have to start somewhere and your tutorial provides that foundation most new players need help with.

A couple of newer players here have started "newbie AARs" recently (Ldros and Schluss) and both of them are good works; they are delving into areas such as alternate strategies / further flushing out logistics.. but I have no doubt in my own mind they both have read your old tutorial and indeed owe some small part of "author inspired by credit". I would actually encourage you to drop into these AARs...

--

Again I note the OP has failed review or mention the other newbie AARs which again make the game accessible to new players



< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 9/8/2016 3:26:30 PM >


_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 46
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 3:34:01 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
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The positive of this thread is the knowledge that I'm associated with this great bunch that calls this place home--whether they claim me or not.....

I've seen and read quite a bit here but have to say the OP paved new ground.... Making certain I have this correctly...A person that says the game costs too much is fed up with the players that play the game and contribute to this forum in a positive manner, insults us and stomps away....



< Message edited by SuluSea -- 9/8/2016 3:35:06 PM >

(in reply to Macclan5)
Post #: 47
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 4:03:14 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

"The positive of this thread is the knowledge that I'm associated with this great bunch that calls this place home--whether they claim me or not....."




Bringing the girls in the dugout back would carry it a long way in your favor?.....'jus' sayin'....


_____________________________




(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 48
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 4:53:21 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey, I am NOT OLD


I do not want to play a detective, but your avatar is old, your signature is old, and your Primo Levi quote is old.


Those are old, but I am not......

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 49
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 5:55:03 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline
Some points are valid enough. Let's not scare off the newbies if we can avoid it. My advise is that the so called old timers might want to have a little more patience with the new folks. By the same token the newbies might want to develop slightly thicker skin to take advantage of the knowledge that can be gained. I suggest nothing further need be said on the topic for fear we prove his point!!

(in reply to Timotheus)
Post #: 50
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 6:28:41 PM   
Major Shane


Posts: 195
Joined: 7/19/2007
Status: offline
I'very been playing since 2012. I'm not an expert on the game and I do not make significant posts to the Forum. But I find the community on this forum phenomenal. The passion to share and discuss history, the game, the leaders, the "what ifs" is simply amazing. I regularly follow AARs, like "Letters from a Prime Minister" because they are exceptional historical fiction. Could the site be improved? Of course. But insulting all of the members, old and new, is not productive.

< Message edited by m_shane_perkins -- 9/8/2016 6:32:05 PM >

(in reply to pontiouspilot)
Post #: 51
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 6:48:31 PM   
rogueusmc


Posts: 4583
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Texas...what country are YOU from?
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Yes, but you are a Sardaukar and can beat Paul Atreides in PBEM with closed eyes. We newbies have it worse!

But how long did it take him? Lol


_____________________________

There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion.

Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army


(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 52
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 7:01:27 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline
He is right, too many trolls spamming some BS in unrelated thread (eg.mine) they apparently find funny but only the 4-5 ones that understand their inside jokes... They others scratch their head what the F they are talking about and why the F they not shut the F up or post something usefull to help eg. a newbie (latest example the AI thread from same poster)

Suggestion is easy if "oldtimer" guys wanna talk about their inside jokes no one but them gets, keep to PN...or use an off topic thread.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 9/8/2016 7:10:06 PM >

(in reply to rogueusmc)
Post #: 53
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 8:13:44 PM   
SheperdN7


Posts: 296
Joined: 2/23/2016
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Status: offline
At least he didn't say "time vampire"


On a serious note though, yes the forum could use some work sometimes, its not perfect and neither are we. Bill does an excellent job of moderating though and as GP said, the sticky issue is being addressed. I am 19 years old and find the insight and info of the old timers on here valuable and interesting. When I have a question, you all answer it in a good, direct way. Timmy Boy (can I call you Timmy Boy?) I understand you're frustrated with the old timers and hey! THATS OK!!! But please don't pregnant dog about it on here when 99.9% of us don't have a problem with them (in fact we have the opposite of a problem with them.) So just please for our sake and yours, calm down, take a chill pill, smoke some dope or something and then when you are over the hurdle of rage quitting, hop right back on your office chair and go scratch some flattops

_____________________________

Current Games:

WitP:AE PBEM against Greg (Late '44)
AE PBEM against Mogami (Early'44)
WITE PBEM against Boomer Sooner

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 54
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 8:23:03 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
GET OFF MY LAWN AT _____________ !



1) THE PARADE GROUNDS HICKAM FIELD
2) THE RAFFLES IN SINGERS
3) EMPEROR'S IMPERIARH PARACE

(in reply to SheperdN7)
Post #: 55
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 8:27:18 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
Hmmm, how to respond...

I think its fair to say that every forum has an issue like this at some point. There are people who are new and possibly impatient, and people who are old, grumpy and would probably be best taking a break. This is not exclusive to this forum though, welcome to the internet.

I also tend to see that it goes in cycles. And for the most part, the folks here are not that bad, some of us just have bad days when maybe we shouldn't have even turned on the old PC.

My suggestion, everyone needs to lighten up. Sort of the reason some of us have running jokes that some people don't get. A little humor goes a long way, so try to play along and have some fun with it.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to SheperdN7)
Post #: 56
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 8:42:30 PM   
RogerJNeilson


Posts: 1277
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: offline
I read the initial post and have since checked some of his other postings elsewhere. I am sure we all know people who can walk into a bar and everything is just nice and within 30 seconds the chairs are flying.... Best often to just quietly leave and return another day when its been redecorated.

Roger

_____________________________

An unplanned dynasty: Roger Neilson, Roger Neilson 11, Roger Neilson 3 previous posts 898+1515 + 1126 = 3539.....Finally completed my game which started the day WITP:AE was released

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 57
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 9:00:10 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

He is right, too many trolls spamming some BS in unrelated thread (eg.mine) they apparently find funny but only the 4-5 ones that understand their inside jokes... They others scratch their head what the F they are talking about and why the F they not shut the F up or post something usefull to help eg. a newbie (latest example the AI thread from same poster)

Suggestion is easy if "oldtimer" guys wanna talk about their inside jokes no one but them gets, keep to PN...or use an off topic thread.


Some of English as a first language can't help but tell jokes, not all good , but just because they contain idioms or refer to, say, US or UK cultural things doesn't mean they are "inside" jokes. Inside jokes are like if I say Bullwinkle58 was once an MLB player are natural and not intended to put anyone off. Why don't you tell us a Westfalian joke auf Deutsch?

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 58
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 9:00:28 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline
People always left when I entered a bar and wanted to talk with em They said behind my back "not this guy again wanna talk about his latest carrier battle in some BS computer game"

(in reply to RogerJNeilson)
Post #: 59
RE: This forum is terrible and unwelcoming - 9/8/2016 9:02:14 PM   
RogerJNeilson


Posts: 1277
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: offline
Which is why we have AE Anonymous (AKA The War Room)

Roger

_____________________________

An unplanned dynasty: Roger Neilson, Roger Neilson 11, Roger Neilson 3 previous posts 898+1515 + 1126 = 3539.....Finally completed my game which started the day WITP:AE was released

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 60
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