Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I'm getting old John, and I think my mind was playing tricks with me. I thought I saw something and later it was different that I remembered. Sorry.

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Am stuck at the store while it snows to beat all heck. Very slow. Sort of like feel yourself age while working slow...

Michael and I have spoken several times on the separation of the Mods. I really like the idea. We are going to work something along these lines:

Between the Storms Heavy--The Fleet Faction of the Kaigun wins the struggle (as is historical) and we get the changes detailed the current BTSH. Yamamoto still becomes Naval Minister but cannot substantively change building policy within the Imperial Navy. You get the Shokaku/Shokaku-Kai designs, 4 Yamato-Class, and the Light Battlecruisers. It is heavier, bigger gunned and a fun scenario to play with.

Between the Storms Lite--The Treaty Faction wins the battle for the soul of the Kaigun. Everything stays the same thru exiting the Treaty System in 1935. Washington and London Treaties are the same. The change occurs when the Fleet Faction rams thru the exit from the Treaty System. Yamamoto and other Treaty-Minded individuals realize that things MUST change and purge the Fleet thru 'disappearances' and forced retirements.

This move leaves the Kaigun OPEN for changes. The Treaty Officers know that quality CANNOT defeat quantity. Without the controls of the Treaty System, Japan will be hopelessly outbuilt in ships. The solution, while time remains, is to build upon successful designs and work to find a workable philosophy to fight the United States Navy. More economical-sized ships are one answer. Instead of Hiraga's behemoths (Yamato and B-64/65), the design of a more conventional 16" Owari-Class BB is accepted. Fast carriers and strong heavy cruisers move to fore. The successful Hiryu-Class becomes the standard for Japan's Fleet Carriers. These fast and maneuverable carriers will serve as Japan's future. Compared to the Shokaku-Class these CVs are cheaper and faster to build. The Niitaka-Class CA (15,000T) build upon the previous successful heavy cruiser designs.

From 1936 to war start, Japan orders the following:
4 Owari-Class BB
4 Hiryu-Class CV
4 Niitaka-Class CA

Two of each are complete in Dec 41. The second pair of BBs will be available in 1943, the CVs and CAs will come in in late-42.

War orders see 6 more CVs and 6 more CAs. The pairs each come out in 1943, 1944, and 1945.


In Real Life, the Japanese had 2 Shokaku (72 planes), 1 Taiho (63), 1 Shinano (??--48), and 6 Unryu (63) for 633 Planes.

BTSL adds 10 CVs (69) for 690 Planes. The carriers are fast but brittle compared to the Shokaku, Taiho, and Shinano-Classes.


This is the preliminary idea. Certainly would make things different. The vast majority of the carrier force would be 34 Knots. You can move fast and strike at a distance and, PERHAPS, survive!

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Am stuck at the store while it snows to beat all heck. Very slow. Sort of like feel yourself age while working slow...

Michael and I have spoken several times on the separation of the Mods. I really like the idea. We are going to work something along these lines:

Between the Storms Heavy--The Fleet Faction of the Kaigun wins the struggle (as is historical) and we get the changes detailed the current BTSH. Yamamoto still becomes Naval Minister but cannot substantively change building policy within the Imperial Navy. You get the Shokaku/Shokaku-Kai designs, 4 Yamato-Class, and the Light Battlecruisers. It is heavier, bigger gunned and a fun scenario to play with.

Between the Storms Lite--The Treaty Faction wins the battle for the soul of the Kaigun. Everything stays the same thru exiting the Treaty System in 1935. Washington and London Treaties are the same. The change occurs when the Fleet Faction rams thru the exit from the Treaty System. Yamamoto and other Treaty-Minded individuals realize that things MUST change and purge the Fleet thru 'disappearances' and forced retirements.

This move leaves the Kaigun OPEN for changes. The Treaty Officers know that quality CANNOT defeat quantity. Without the controls of the Treaty System, Japan will be hopelessly outbuilt in ships. The solution, while time remains, is to build upon successful designs and work to find a workable philosophy to fight the United States Navy. More economical-sized ships are one answer. Instead of Hiraga's behemoths (Yamato and B-64/65), the design of a more conventional 16" Owari-Class BB is accepted. Fast carriers and strong heavy cruisers move to fore. The successful Hiryu-Class becomes the standard for Japan's Fleet Carriers. These fast and maneuverable carriers will serve as Japan's future. Compared to the Shokaku-Class these CVs are cheaper and faster to build. The Niitaka-Class CA (15,000T) build upon the previous successful heavy cruiser designs.

From 1936 to war start, Japan orders the following:
4 Owari-Class BB
4 Hiryu-Class CV
4 Niitaka-Class CA

Two of each are complete in Dec 41. The second pair of BBs will be available in 1943, the CVs and CAs will come in in late-42.

War orders see 6 more CVs and 6 more CAs. The pairs each come out in 1943, 1944, and 1945.


In Real Life, the Japanese had 2 Shokaku (72 planes), 1 Taiho (63), 1 Shinano (??--48), and 6 Unryu (63) for 633 Planes.

BTSL adds 10 CVs (69) for 690 Planes. The carriers are fast but brittle compared to the Shokaku, Taiho, and Shinano-Classes.


This is the preliminary idea. Certainly would make things different. The vast majority of the carrier force would be 34 Knots. You can move fast and strike at a distance and, PERHAPS, survive!

Snow is so nice and pretty . . .

I was thinking of changing some of the AA updates for the IJN to include a copy of the German 37mm gun which could have been procured from Germany. Think of two 37mms for three 25mms. No AA rockets either on board ships.

Maybe even add some 37mms to some of the IJN/IJA base forces and AAA units.

There are also a couple of documents/web pages that are Russian and apparently are how the Soviet TO&E changed for the divisions from the start of the war to the conclusion of the war. Apparently, the initial size of the infantry divisions were comparable to a Western brigades but other elements were added later. Since I neither speak Russian nor read their alphabet, that will take a little time to decode. The changes could either be a TOE upgrade or additional units to be combined to form the division.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AtParmentier

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Am stuck at the store while it snows to beat all heck. Very slow. Sort of like feel yourself age while working slow...

Michael and I have spoken several times on the separation of the Mods. I really like the idea. We are going to work something along these lines:

Between the Storms Heavy--The Fleet Faction of the Kaigun wins the struggle (as is historical) and we get the changes detailed the current BTSH. Yamamoto still becomes Naval Minister but cannot substantively change building policy within the Imperial Navy. You get the Shokaku/Shokaku-Kai designs, 4 Yamato-Class, and the Light Battlecruisers. It is heavier, bigger gunned and a fun scenario to play with.

Between the Storms Lite--The Treaty Faction wins the battle for the soul of the Kaigun. Everything stays the same thru exiting the Treaty System in 1935. Washington and London Treaties are the same. The change occurs when the Fleet Faction rams thru the exit from the Treaty System. Yamamoto and other Treaty-Minded individuals realize that things MUST change and purge the Fleet thru 'disappearances' and forced retirements.

This move leaves the Kaigun OPEN for changes. The Treaty Officers know that quality CANNOT defeat quantity. Without the controls of the Treaty System, Japan will be hopelessly outbuilt in ships. The solution, while time remains, is to build upon successful designs and work to find a workable philosophy to fight the United States Navy. More economical-sized ships are one answer. Instead of Hiraga's behemoths (Yamato and B-64/65), the design of a more conventional 16" Owari-Class BB is accepted. Fast carriers and strong heavy cruisers move to fore. The successful Hiryu-Class becomes the standard for Japan's Fleet Carriers. These fast and maneuverable carriers will serve as Japan's future. Compared to the Shokaku-Class these CVs are cheaper and faster to build. The Niitaka-Class CA (15,000T) build upon the previous successful heavy cruiser designs.

From 1936 to war start, Japan orders the following:
4 Owari-Class BB
4 Hiryu-Class CV
4 Niitaka-Class CA

Two of each are complete in Dec 41. The second pair of BBs will be available in 1943, the CVs and CAs will come in in late-42.

War orders see 6 more CVs and 6 more CAs. The pairs each come out in 1943, 1944, and 1945.


In Real Life, the Japanese had 2 Shokaku (72 planes), 1 Taiho (63), 1 Shinano (??--48), and 6 Unryu (63) for 633 Planes.

BTSL adds 10 CVs (69) for 690 Planes. The carriers are fast but brittle compared to the Shokaku, Taiho, and Shinano-Classes.


This is the preliminary idea. Certainly would make things different. The vast majority of the carrier force would be 34 Knots. You can move fast and strike at a distance and, PERHAPS, survive!

Snow is so nice and pretty . . .

I was thinking of changing some of the AA updates for the IJN to include a copy of the German 37mm gun which could have been procured from Germany. Think of two 37mms for three 25mms. No AA rockets either on board ships.

Maybe even add some 37mms to some of the IJN/IJA base forces and AAA units.

There are also a couple of documents/web pages that are Russian and apparently are how the Soviet TO&E changed for the divisions from the start of the war to the conclusion of the war. Apparently, the initial size of the infantry divisions were comparable to a Western brigades but other elements were added later. Since I neither speak Russian nor read their alphabet, that will take a little time to decode. The changes could either be a TOE upgrade or additional units to be combined to form the division.

Which 37mm? The 3.7 cm SK C/30, 3.7 cm Flak M42, 3.7 cm Flak 43, or 3.7 cm Flak 18/36/37/43?
Also could maybe implement the stopped and then restarted development of the 127mm/50 type 1/5.

quote:

Charles C.Sharp ("Red Legions/Soviet Order of Battle World War II Vol.8, p.5)") mentions average rifle Divisions strengths as at 1st June 1941 for the following military districts.

Leningrad Military District - 11,985 men
Baltic Military District - 8,712 men
Western Military District - 9,327 men
Kiev Military District - 8,792 men
Odessa Military District - 8,400 men

This was despite the mobilzation of about 500,000 men in the spring of 1941 to bring all the rifle divisons in these districts up to the "12" level (12,000 men).

quote:

Researching an Order of Battle – The Soviets (continued 1)

quote:

Soviet Infantry Division
(Wartime Strength 5th April, 1941) (14439 men)
(TO&E series number 4/400-416)

quote:

Soviet Diminished Division
(Sokrashtshenna divizia)
(29th July, 1941)

quote:


Reflections:
Overall, the Red Army’s summer and fall campaign of 1944 constituted a long series of unmitigated disasters for Axis armies and fortunes in the East. The Red Army’s summer offensives alone cost Axis forces an estimated 465,000 soldiers killed or captured. Between 1 June and 30 November 1944, total German losses on all fronts were1,457,000, of which 903,000 were lost on the Eastern Front. By the end of 1944, only Hungary remained as a German ally, and Germany felt increasingly besieged and isolated, with the Red Army lodged in East Prussia in the north, along the Vistula River in Poland, and across the Danube in Hungary, and with Allied armies within striking distance of Germany’s western borders. The Soviet Union also suffered heavily during this period, coming ever closer to the bottom of its once-limitless barrel of manpower. In an effort to compensate for this, Soviet plans used steadily increasing amounts of artillery, armor, and airpower to reduceman power losses. In the process, moreover, the Soviet commanders had the opportunity to test out their operational theories under a variety of different tactical and terrain considerations. These commanders still made occasional mistakes, but they entered 1945 at the top of their form.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

John, since you are cleaning up, TOE# 2719, 2720, and 2721 have improper delay dates they are set as 4207, 4305, and 4305.
They all need to be complete 6 digit dates, so 420701, 430501 and 430502.
As they are they update 4207 days and 4305 days after the scenario start.

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cavalry Corp

BTW I think that issue was sorted as yours uses a correct base number - I used one of the illegal numbers. Would you like my scn for your web page as its based on your RA 8.0

Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/