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Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 9:00:35 AM   
MrOrange

 

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When we're playing this game, we are basically "God".
We enjoy a situation no commander in real life can even dream of: we have stable, 100% reliable communications with every single unit under our control, and our orders are carried on real time with no exceptions.

No misunderstandings, no delays... nothing. Even submarines, can have their course/orders changed anytime, anywhere, whatever is their dept.
During a dogfight you can tell to the single aricraft where it must head, and how to fire.

Don't you find it extremely unrealistic? What Admiral can possibly do something like that?

Submarines operate in a situation of relative freedom: give them a mission, a partol area, ROEs, and up you go. Next call window in 12 hours.
Do you imagine an Admiral, from his command center, picking up the radio and tell to a fighter pilot in the middle of a furball "son, break left, head on the aircraft on your left and shoot three missiles".

For sake of realism, I have some house rules that I apply: for many units I just give them missions, and never interfere with what the units are doing, even if the temptation is extremely high.

Did anyone ever thought about giving some restrictions on this absolute power over units? Something like unreliable communications (maybe in %), rational impossibility to carry on orders, and such?

You can't imagine how frustrating is, to realize that you sent your planes in a SAM trap, and watch heplessly when they're trying to get out of it in one piece.
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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 9:25:05 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

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All true, but realism does not equal fun. For the game to be enjoyable some compromises need to be made. There are ways to implement what you mentioned as well, I believe thewood1 developed a method to simulate submarine communications for example.

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 10:10:32 AM   
Dysta


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It is understandable to have a godlike commanding and communicating function for a simulator, military units aren't remote controlled toys that must be controlled manually. They have their own actual/CO to do their pre-planned objectives without the need of direct commanding.

If necessary, you can deliberately make a delay to command your unit that is seems impossible to communicate. It cannot simulate the delay threshold realistically, but you can give yourself a challenge that way.

< Message edited by Dysta -- 10/6/2016 10:12:08 AM >


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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 10:17:27 AM   
MrOrange

 

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I normally assign missions, and don't interfere with the automatic execution.
For planes, I just reserve the right to abort it completely. I never launch units without a mission, or without knowing to which mission assign them once airborne.
For subs, I just give them orders every 4 hours, but this is an arbitrary time.

Naval units, I control them directly. Ground units, it depends on the situation.

And I try to never, ever, stop the running time (but my cheating soul doesn't allow me all the times ).

That's the closest thing I can think of, to a real situation


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dysta

It is understandable to have a godlike commanding and communicating function for a simulator, military units aren't remote controlled toys that must be controlled manually. They have their own CO to do their pre-planned objectives without the need of direct commanding.

If necessary, you can deliberately make a delay to command your unit that is seems impossible to communicate. It cannot simulate the delay threshold restically, but you can give yourself a challenge that way.



< Message edited by MrOrange -- 10/6/2016 10:19:01 AM >

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 11:24:31 AM   
thewood1

 

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For those who want it, this can be remedied for subs. Make them a different side. Use missions and lua to get periodic updates or comms. You do similar things for ships and even airplanes, but it becomes complex in large scenarios. I have even experimented with delays and you can make it work. If it bothers you enough, you can build it into a scenario.

Also keep in mind a real commander has a staff coordinating orders, support, and logistics. You, in Command, don't. So there is nothing wrong with taking some leeway to balance it out.

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 11:51:32 AM   
mikmykWS

 

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We know this but don't do it because a majority of players like driving subs and we have to make the game that's approachable to players who don't understand much about comms limitations and OODA. We do have to sell a game to a wide audience to fund all the neat things you do have. I hope you see that reality can't be the only thing that drives design decisions!

Speaking of. We're going to introduce a feature soon that will allow out of comms subs. We've been working heavily on comms related stuff. Stay tuned! I'm pretty sure this will do what you need.

Thanks

Mike





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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 12:32:13 PM   
bradinggs


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Ooh, sounds good, interested to see!

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 1:29:38 PM   
Dysta


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x2, finally the feature from FC is going to be back!

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 3:08:00 PM   
MrOrange

 

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Forgive me: it didn't mean to be a free criticism for the sake of it.
The game is great and I love it.
I see that you're interested in customer feedback so much to open a poll, and I thought it could be a suggestion.

I'm kinda happy with the house rules I'm applying.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

We know this but don't do it because a majority of players like driving subs and we have to make the game that's approachable to players who don't understand much about comms limitations and OODA. We do have to sell a game to a wide audience to fund all the neat things you do have. I hope you see that reality can't be the only thing that drives design decisions!

Speaking of. We're going to introduce a feature soon that will allow out of comms subs. We've been working heavily on comms related stuff. Stay tuned! I'm pretty sure this will do what you need.

Thanks

Mike






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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 3:16:41 PM   
kevinkins


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House rules are a time honored part of war gaming and most long time players use them to some degree. Gamers love to tinker and have been making their own "sand boxes" for years. Command is too new for me to attempt playing a scenario using my own rules. I would rather play scenarios through once at least as the designer intended. The type of game play MrOrange is mentioning may require specific accommodations in scenario design with specifics outlined in the briefings. The play balance of current scenarios might be affected if a player just dove in with their own side rules. That being said, perhaps scenarios can be designed where micro management of certain formations is frowned upon while being impossible to enforce. In another time and with another war game (ground) a entire genre sprang up called "Iron Man" rules.

< Message edited by kevinkin -- 10/6/2016 3:18:45 PM >

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 3:55:17 PM   
thewood1

 

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"perhaps scenarios can be designed where micro management of certain formations is frowned upon while being impossible to enforce."

Actually it can be enforced quite easily through good scenario design. Its through various sides. You can have an "infinite" number of sides with all different postures and missions. You can use events to permanently or temporarily move units from side to side. That gets done most of what is being talked about.

You can make it as easy as making one formation an allied side that shares info, but can't be accessed, all the way to taking points away for trying to modify a unit's orders. The first being so simple as to not require an events or lua and the second being more complicated with a lot of lua code.

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 4:27:51 PM   
kevinkins


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Good points. I have been experimenting with those techniques. One thing (if I understand correctly), hard coded sides w/ lua scripts and missions do not allow the player to select the formations to micromanage at the start without using the editor. They need to accept the chain of command as designed or go in and change things. I was thinking in terms of a flexible rules set described via the briefings. Primarily for players who rather not edit scenarios. Players would police themselves based on the briefings.

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 4:49:06 PM   
De Savage

 

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It is unrealistic, but like other said it would be boring to have realistic simulator. :D I would still love better comms, possible delay, jamming comss, etc.

How about you send your fighter to area by manual control. And find out that all comms are jammed and it's impossible to give direct commands. That would be cool.

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/6/2016 5:36:23 PM   
thewood1

 

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Yes you can...just set it up to switch sides once out of comms range on in jamming range. Its not exact, but its all at some level of abstraction anyway.

The short of it is, today, a scenario designer can set all of this up. So anyone who thinks its important enough, can start building scenarios.

I can tell you that I have set up test and personal scenarios using what is basically out of comms scenario building techniques. I hope people realize what they are asking for.

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/7/2016 8:44:00 AM   
magi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

We know this but don't do it because a majority of players like driving subs and we have to make the game that's approachable to players who don't understand much about comms limitations and OODA. We do have to sell a game to a wide audience to fund all the neat things you do have. I hope you see that reality can't be the only thing that drives design decisions!

Speaking of. We're going to introduce a feature soon that will allow out of comms subs. We've been working heavily on comms related stuff. Stay tuned! I'm pretty sure this will do what you need.

Thanks

Mike





i am very pleased to hear this.... you guys are the tops....

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/7/2016 9:42:43 AM   
Dysta


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Let's start from submarine first as mike is doing, see what it need to be adjusted before a full integration of communication to all unit types.

Like I said, many units and pilots are capable to perform pre-planned objectives within the authority. Imagine yourself is the unit's CO, you got to command your fellow with and without supervision. So realistic communication isn't really critical to me.

< Message edited by Dysta -- 10/7/2016 9:43:40 AM >


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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/7/2016 11:28:25 AM   
Dimitris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrOrange
Do you imagine an Admiral, from his command center, picking up the radio and tell to a fighter pilot in the middle of a furball "son, break left, head on the aircraft on your left and shoot three missiles".


If you enable "Auto Evasion" at a unit's Doctrine settings, you will notice that when it is in the middle of evading an enemy or a weapon, it will actively ignore any course & speed orders you issue to it.


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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/8/2016 10:33:05 AM   
AlGrant


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To answer the question "Is the direct control unrealistic?"

YES it is!
But only in the same manner that features like time compression and pause are unrealistic.
And although we have the option to run at 1:1 and never hit pause ..... I'm guessing few ever apply those restrictions to their own game play rules.




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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/8/2016 12:30:36 PM   
thewood1

 

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But all that is good and holy, what the immersion! We have to have the immersion! I just knew sooner or later someone would bring that up so I saved them the effort.

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/12/2016 5:18:30 PM   
StellarRat

 

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I've thought about this very topic many times, what you are saying is true. There is way to "fix" it and you probably wouldn't like the results. One way is to run everything you don't have direct control over with an AI. That results in several problems. It could be boring for some players, an AI still isn't as good as a real human, and finally there is a lot of processing overhead if the AI is really good i.e. the game runs slowly. There is also the problem that MANY things should/would go unnoticed so you'd have to implement a very extensive "intelligence" system. Example: Say one of your subs is sunk; how would you know? Eventually you'd find out if it didn't report in at an expected interval, but you still have doubt for a long time.

The other option is a real command structure with "real" humans taking command of all the various assets that are independently controlled. How many people are you willing to assemble to run your war? Even a small scenario could take dozens. And you still have to insert some kind of communication "denial" system into the game to make it realistic.

Bottom line, it could become very cumbersome, un-fun, and impractical except for the most diehard gamers.

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/12/2016 8:12:16 PM   
thewood1

 

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There isn't that much processing overhead. And, frankly, the AI is about average as a player, if set up right. You can test that by running a scenario with all missions and then running it manually. Almost no difference. I know super-smart people and super-stupid people. People tend to complain about the AI, but ignore stupid stuff real people do. I always challenge people complaining about an AI to play a scenario through once blind and compare your performance with the AI. You'll probably do better, but like you do after you have played the game for three years. The AI is one thing...consistent.

But as you say, out-of-comms sounds fun until you dig into details about how you bring units and their spotting routines on and off the grid. If you have 15 units with jammed comms that keep suddenly coming on and off the grid, how do you merge all perspectives into one over time so that a player can interpret it without a staff. What do you do with sightings over time that multiple units had that are jammed at different times coming on and off the grid. What happens to uncertainty zones. What happens to friendly units that drop? 30 minutes later, are they suddenly hostile? Do you fire on them? How do you keep track of them?

Think of how complex the system is for managing contacts. Now layer on that units that used to be in comms or are dropping in and out. You have to merge all of that information into a cohesive view that the player can use. The amount of effort that the devs have to put into that...I would wish we could see how many people actually use it more than once.


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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/13/2016 1:43:01 AM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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What 'house rules' do you all currently use to mimic this (excluding things that require editing the missions/LUA, etc - as simple as possible)? A couple of examples I saw from MrOrange above:

- Setting missions and not interfering with them (and only launching planes with missions assigned)

- Only giving subs orders every 4 hours.

- No pausing (you sadist!!)

I imagine most people like to have complete control most of the time - the lack of comms issues isn't game breaking, it's just a nice extra we don't have.

quote:

We know this but don't do it because a majority of players like driving subs...



See? We can deal with 'house rules' governing it..........

quote:


Speaking of. We're going to introduce a feature soon that will allow out of comms subs. We've been working heavily on comms related stuff. Stay tuned! I'm pretty sure this will do what you need.


Interesting!! I take that back!

I think subs are the highest priority in communications improvements - they seem to be the unit most noticeably affected by 'god-mode-communications'. It's true a plane wouldn't have command barking every order in the pilot's ear, but the planes in CMANO don't seem to need as much micromanagement (not CMANO's 'fault', just how subs and planes differ).

I don't think the game's lacking at all as it is - but improvements just add more of interest and make those features more accessible. CMANO excels in making you think about new problems you'd never considered before. Every addition strikes a balance between the work required and the interest generated. A great scenario could be built out of managing the food supply on a single carrier - but it wouldn't add enough to make a worthwhile addition to the game, and many people would rather not have to bother.*

Any future developments in communications (in my opinion), would be a nice addition, but aren't currently gamebreaking. As hinted at by Sunburn, a lot of us already get baffled by units ignoring us because of some doctrinal setting we missed!

Of course, I say all this until I'm blown away by a new feature I never knew I wanted...

*Feature request: Pot Noodle Supply listed alongside weapons stocks on carriers.

< Message edited by ColonelMolerat -- 10/13/2016 2:23:24 AM >

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/13/2016 2:19:54 AM   
Dysta


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And now you are talking about food, damn I am hungry -NOT!

Let the nano-management sleep until more updates evaluate the possibilities.

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/13/2016 4:35:45 PM   
SeaQueen


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It depends. In a scenario involving a small number of units, direct control is probably pretty realistic.

As the scenario gets larger, direct control becomes less realistic in some cases. It also depends on how you think of things.

There's a ton of other "unrealistic" things which occur in Command even if you rely entirely on the mission planner and the AI because in real life things which would be handled by an entire staff of people are left to one person. The functions of dozens, possibly hundreds of people are consolidated into one person. The person who decides where the aircraft carrier is going to set up station, isn't the same person who does the strike planning. They aren't the same person who manages the transiting of submarines, and they aren't the same person who manages the ground battle. Those people spend a lot of time talking to each other, though. Sometimes it's more, sometimes less, depending on what's going on.

In Command, it's never really reasonable to think of yourself as filling a single person's role in a command structure unless a scenario is specifically scoped to reflect that position. It's better to think of one's self wearing many different hats. In some cases you might be performing the role of someone quite high up in the chain of command, fulfilling some joint role (e.g. someone on the Air Component Commander's staff). In other cases you might be filling in for someone relatively low on the totem pole, fulfilling a role that a captain or one of his crew members might perform (e.g. Commander Air Group staff member or squadron commander, maybe even individual pilots). Sometimes you're performing the role that an Air Battle Manager performs by directing the air battle. Other times you're the Naval Component Commander, moving ships and submarines around the map. Are the results of this necessarily unrealistic? It's safe to say that all of these different staffs of people constantly exchange information, while there are certainly delays, quantifying these delays is often difficult. At best they'd be represented by some sort of random variable. Many of these delays might not really matter because they're captured by other things in the game (aircraft turn around time, for example). The game displays areas of uncertainty, so it captures the age of a contact quite well. Much more important is the "flatness" of the chain of command, and the broad scope of one's decision making.

If you want to limit the scope of your decision making, you can do that by making a bunch of AI controlled allied sides representing other organizational units beyond your command. A good example of that might be controlling just one tank company team in a larger battalion or brigade sized operation. You could make the other units in the battalion allied units and part of your job is just to keep up with their advance. Another good example might be make you control just one SSN while allied MPA search adjacent areas.

The thing is, in real life, on a local scale, coordinating units would be able to talk to one another. Would they have perfect information? Probably not, but it's not clear how imperfect it would be either. While much has been made of submarines inability to communicate, we also live in an era of underwater telephones, data links, floating antennas, radio masts, signals, burst transmissions and other technologies. Local, short range communication between coordinating units is probably quite good. In that sense, being "god" will probably produce more realistic outcomes in many ways than a strictly limited scope case, because in spite of the problems of communication, the two units would still be able to react to one another's efforts.

In large scale scenario, involving multiple carrier strike groups, submarines, land based aircraft and what not, you run into other problems. ISR systems like satellites or aircraft like the SR-71 or U-2 might provide information about enemy forces far outside the strike range of the forces under your command. That's okay, though, because for a realistically scoped scenario involving such forces, one ought to have to maneuver their forces into range to strike those targets. Along the way the contacts will age, or be updated and refined. One might assume that in spite of the delays between the national level assets which would be informing your decisions while wearing your "Joint Force Commander's hat" and the more tactical level commanders while wearing your "Carrier Strike Group Commander's hat," sometime during the hours or days which pass as the strike forces get into range, the proper information will be transmitted and received by the appropriate forces so that you can switch hats and act accordingly.

All in all, I don't feel bad about the lack of communication delays. For closely coordinating units most capable of acting on information those sorts of delays are likely short and information, while certainly flawed, probably isn't too terrible. For information passed down from satellites, U-2s, SR-71s or what not, in any realistic scenario, by the time forces were in the area to act on that information it's been aged and refined accordingly. While Command's representation of communications isn't "exactly right," by assuming it away it avoids the problem of being, "exactly wrong" and produces a good enough solution that is probably more realistic overall than attempting to obsessively account for every detail of communication and miscommunication.


< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 10/13/2016 9:01:03 PM >

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/13/2016 6:32:40 PM   
hellfish6


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Total control is, of course, unrealistic if you see yourself as the individual human being in the role of force commander.

However, if you see yourself as "the force" itself - meaning your brain is the collective institutional knowledge and experience of the US Navy, (or TG 55.1.2, or the Chinese South Sea Command or whatever side and force composition you're playing), then it's not unrealistic. Or at least less unrealistic.

If you're the individual who is flag officer in command of a force, you're obviously not going to be giving altitude and heading commands to an F-18 500 miles away in a dogfight. But as a representational distributed force in a simulation, YOUR version of the United States Navy would be telling that F-18 pilot what to be doing because that's how YOUR USN taught him to do it. My version of the USN, which only exists when I play the exact same scenario MY way, might have that pilot doing different things. Or not in that situation in the first place.

It's all about perspective. Plus, if we're playing a side as an entire collective force, we can't blame a shoddy AI or the simulated seaman recruit asleep at the fire control console when things go wrong. Far less frustrating in the end, IMHO, than trying to be an individual.

To paraphrase Walt Whitman, when you play this game, you are large. You contain multitudes.

< Message edited by hellfish6 -- 10/13/2016 6:33:50 PM >


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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/13/2016 6:46:09 PM   
KungPao


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one of the solution to your question is to add a "WE-GO" turn based system. But, it needs a lot of work on AI part.

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/13/2016 7:25:17 PM   
thewood1

 

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You can already use we-go by pausing every 30 seconds. What would be needed for the AI? You already a fairly complex mission planning process and scripting capabilities. A scenario designer would build it in to pause every 30 seconds of game time or real time.

But today, you can run 30 seconds. Stop, issue orders, run 30 seconds, etc. What would be different than that? You could even look at replays of the last 30 seconds if you wanted.

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/13/2016 9:16:23 PM   
SeaQueen


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We-go, turn based playing isn't really necessary. Pausing as necessary to adjust and make changes is actually more realistic than keeping the clock running in my opinion.

The reason is that, as we've discussed, you're not really assuming the role of a single military officer. You're in fact assuming the role of many different officers in many different situations, each of whom has a staff at his disposal to assist him in the planning and execution of his orders. Additionally, many of these officers have responsibilities that have nothing at all to do with the war fight.

I once had the opportunity to follow a warship's captain around on a frigate. In the course of the day, he spent a surprisingly small fraction of his time on the bridge and even less in the CIC room. Sometimes he was in his cabin, working on paperwork. Sometimes he was down in engineering, checking up on maintenance issues. Sometimes he was overseeing an exercise where they were teaching the sailors to shoot the 25mm cannon. Sometimes he was presiding over disciplinary hearings because some stupid seaman decided it was a good idea to smoke pot on the pier. Sometimes he was checking out the status of a helicopter that had broken down. In short he was all over the place, dealing with things that are beyond the scope of Command as a game. Some of those things had little or no impact on the war fight but were important responsibilities none the less. Nobody is happy if sailors don't get paid because of a paperwork issue, for example.

In Command, it's important to pause the game periodically and take some time to plan and do some things because in real life the person making the decision you're about to make would most likely not have been focusing exclusively on that one thing. Instead, they'd very likely have a staff of people working beneath them to evaluate alternatives and present them with at least some alternatives for his evaluation if not a complete plan for the officer to approve and implement. It's another example of how in Command you don't represent a single person, but rather a whole group of people.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

You can already use we-go by pausing every 30 seconds. What would be needed for the AI? You already a fairly complex mission planning process and scripting capabilities. A scenario designer would build it in to pause every 30 seconds of game time or real time.

But today, you can run 30 seconds. Stop, issue orders, run 30 seconds, etc. What would be different than that? You could even look at replays of the last 30 seconds if you wanted.



< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 10/13/2016 9:17:30 PM >

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/13/2016 10:59:22 PM   
ColonelMolerat

 

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SeaQueen & Hellfish - you've both hit the nail on the head there, I think!

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RE: Is the direct control unrealistic? - 10/14/2016 9:53:39 AM   
MrOrange

 

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Interesting comments.

Maybe my autoritaristic, self-centering, dictatorial attitude, never allowed me to considerate the fact that in this game I can be considered a group of persons working as a team.

That's the closest thing to "it could be that I'm not 100% right" that you'll ever get out of me.

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