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RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/9/2017 11:21:17 PM

Ormand

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LJBurstyn

I noticed that SMG II need to be built from scratch instead of upgrading the SMG I. I know that SMG is a model but should it not be up-gradable also.

I see what you mean, in that they are exactly like tanks, etc., in that they are extinct dinosaurs and you can't upgrade them. It is more realistic for tanks and fighters, since most of the effort for the new unit goes into the equipment. I have to think about this, and I would have to get Vic to add some Execs to do this.

quote:

I noticed that as map size increases Research costs go up...is this necessary? Correct? Part of ATG? Can it be reset by rules?

Yes, this is an ATG thing. It can probably be changed, but I am not sure how.

quote:

One suggestion: Not sure who this should go to. Allow models to be deleted. It is distracting to have old models still shown when I cannot build them. Or when I accidentally create two models of the same thing (UGH wrong model button got pressed).

A feature to ask Vic for

quote:

AI is hard...that's why I prefer HUMAN only games. Generally after 10 turns the AI is out of supply because it overbuilt and will lose. It simply cannot continue it's offensive no matter how aggressive it is set.

Lots of complaints on this. When I get something stabilized, I will look at how to get the AI more supplies. Bombur has indicated that he thinks allowing factories to build supplies will work. Another might be an AI only supply factory that produces only supplies. Let it be one of the factories the AI can build. It might be possible to use ExecAIAutoChangeProd (but this would probably require some implementation from Vic). You can use this to change production of AIGroup, which you can see by the AI Role Score. Here it is possible to switch from one group to another for each production center. I don't think supplies are a group though (although using -1 will get the AI to produce PP, perhaps it can be set to use 0 for supplies). The other way is to "cheat" and give the AI supplies based on what it needs.

quote:

Lastly for today: I know why you moved artillery to division level but now if you bombard with the artillery the division cannot take part in the attack afterwards. A lot of nations had artillery CORPS (and Divisions) for heavy bombardments...perhaps make a heavy artillery unit for this.

That is a thought. You can actually separate them out, and use them as artillery, even as is. It is a substantially different mindset this way, and perhaps not the best way to go about it, as one cannot pund the enemy beforehand to reduce readiness. Although, I tend to think that artillery is actually more effective in defense than offense. And, most artillery in WWII had ranges < 20 km, which is one hex here.

On a different note, I fixed two other "minor" bugs:
1. Forest low mountains had build roads set to .false. At this point it should only be high mountains snow where building of a road is not possible.
2. Reduced the storm probability in summer slightly.

(in reply to LJBurstyn)

Post #: 61

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/10/2017 1:47:31 AM

ernieschwitz

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quote:

quote:

quote:

I noticed that as map size increases Research costs go up...is this necessary? Correct? Part of ATG? Can it be reset by rules?

Yes, this is an ATG thing. It can probably be changed, but I am not sure how.

I believe it is done in the Setng menu. Somewhere on the right hand side up to. That is where I remember it being...

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Post #: 62

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/11/2017 11:49:23 PM

LJBurstyn

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Two more things or is it three?

Missing two png's when I open the game. Newspapers.DR-SOV is one the other is (oh h I forgot but it also starts with Newspapers DR).

SP Artillery (model) still has a range of 2...it probably should be 1 also.

I cannot find the research thing in setting menu maybe I should look again...

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Post #: 63

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/12/2017 2:09:44 AM

Ormand

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Must have forgot to move those pngs over. I'll look.

I'll fix the sp arty range.

The research thing is in the editor, the Setng tab, and is ResProdRelMod. I am not sure if this can be set in the master, but can be set after the random game is created. It will take a little research to understand this.

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Post #: 64

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/12/2017 2:34:54 AM

Ormand

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OK, fixed those two.

The pictures are not actually part of FourSeasons but a scenario I was working on and the two got mixed up.

Yes, SP Artillery should have a range of 1. Missed that since it is in an event.

And, yes I know I should be changing the version number but it is a pain since I am editing six files at this point (with two versions of the code), and is a bit of work, so it is still v1.1.4

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Post #: 65

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/12/2017 4:44:40 AM

LJBurstyn

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I noticed in my game that I lose a lot more artillery while bombarding...is this intentional? I'll have a look and see if it is only counter-battery fire or other units also...should they be immune to attacks by other units while bombarding?

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Post #: 66

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/12/2017 5:51:03 AM

Ormand

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The counter battery feature is turned on, so that can have an effect, but, yes the should be invulnerable to other units, and they do not have an artillery range.

Then again, if you find something odd let me know.

And, thanks again for the feedback!

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Post #: 67

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/12/2017 2:38:37 PM

LJBurstyn

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I looked at the results of a bombardment. Rifle units were getting results against the artillery unit (in the result several attacked but missed). One HW unit forced an artillery unit to retreat. One unit was killed by an enemy infantry gun? I lost 5 artillery units out of 10 and did not get one enemy unit killed or forced to retreat.

The AI seems intent on building HW, guerilla,and militia units.

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Post #: 68

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/12/2017 3:37:46 PM

ernieschwitz

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Counter Battery fire is extremely deadly, as you probably have found out by now. More deadly than regular bombardment. I turned it off in scenarios that are bigger scale. I argued that it was something more fit for smaller scale scenarios. I wish there was a way to tone it down.

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Post #: 69

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/12/2017 4:30:54 PM

LJBurstyn

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Since my losses have been heavier than the enemy when I bombard I have stopped all bombardments. Except I am using my SP artillery units to bombard out of range of enemy artillery (since it's range is 2 which I assume will be corrected in the future if not already).

Just discovered: Heavy Tank Destroyer Theory requires you have completed Heavy Tank Destroyer Theory???? Basically means you cannot have Heavy Tank Tank Destroyers.

Comment after researching dive bombers you still have to spend lots of PP to upgrade the dive bombers models? Should ground attack improvements be applied to dive bombers also?

EDIT: Hope someone can do something about upgrading ground units instead of having to build the new units and disband the old units.

EDIT2: Just noticed that there are TWO Fighter Ground Support IV's...one probably should just be named V since it requires IV to research.

< Message edited by LJBurstyn -- 7/12/2017 10:43:33 PM >

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Post #: 70

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/13/2017 3:29:34 AM

Ormand

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First, the main thing I want to say is a great big THANKS for the feedback and putting up with some bugs. It was a large endeavor and quite a few things slipped through all the editing. Thanks to you, I think the number of them is dwindling away.

I have uploaded a new version v1.1.5 (but not for ATG v225 yet. Unless you need this, but I think this will also work with v225).

The complete list of things fixed since the first v1.1.4:
1. Changed Heavy Tank Destroyer Theory to require Heavy Tank I
2. Properly named Fighter Ground Support V
3. Heavy Weapons V blocks Heavy Weapons IV.
4. Set artillery range for medium coastal battery to 1
5. Set artillery range for sp-artillery to 1
6. Forest low mountains build road set to .true. High mountains snow is still .false.
7. Reduced the storm probability in summer seasons slightly.
8. removed extraneous pictures

As for ground support alteration. This is intended to be applied to fighters and not dive bombers. Dive bombers are assumed to be specially purposed for a ground-attack role. The extra PP to build a model is as with all model cases. The Fighter Ground Support is an alteration for fighters increases ground-attach strength at the expense of fighter air-to-air capability.

I will also have to research the counter-battery fire and exactly what is going on. According to the manual: "Another special rule is that defending artillery target of an artillery attack or shorebombardment
can do counter battery fire if rulevar 142 is active". Thus, I would expect it to be just like an artillery bombardment. Meaning that units without an artillery range shouldn't be able to participate. So, I'll need to take a look at the results, and report as needed.

Upgrading models is being looked into. There might be a resolution in a few weeks.

EDIT: A peak into the AI also revealed that it was enamored with HW. I have to look at this too.

< Message edited by Ormand -- 7/13/2017 3:34:03 AM >

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Post #: 71

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/13/2017 4:24:40 AM

LJBurstyn

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Pine forest are set to false for building roads....I know that it should be true since I've seen roads built in pine forests (help build one--dirt but it worked).

Will download new version and test it out....when I got the time....ugh bed is calling...

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Post #: 72

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/13/2017 5:10:38 AM

Ormand

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Actually, Pine Woods, but yep, not intended.

I uploaded v1.1.6

Changes:
1. Set build road to .true. for Pine Woods terrain
2. Modified Heavy Weapons SFT to make it more like (3*MG + Mortar)/4 since it is meant to replace a combination of the two.

I am curious how the HW renorm goes.

Also, I am toying with increasing road build costs for mud and winter terrains. Right now, it is the same to build a road in plains as well as muddy plains, which seems not quite right to me. Thoughts on this?

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Post #: 73

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/13/2017 12:38:05 PM

cpdeyoung

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I know which terrain I would rather build a road in!

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Post #: 74

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/14/2017 8:48:20 AM

Vic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ormand

Must have forgot to move those pngs over. I'll look.

I'll fix the sp arty range.

The research thing is in the editor, the Setng tab, and is ResProdRelMod. I am not sure if this can be set in the master, but can be set after the random game is created. It will take a little research to understand this.

Logic is that cost of research should gameplay wise be related to the number of turns. If you have bigger map you have more PP and it will cause research to progress much quicker. Hence the ResProdRelMod is used.

If it is set to 40.000 and total location production points equals 40.000 research will be default cost
If it is set to say 80.000 and total loc prod points is 40.000 research cost will be halved.
And if it is say 80.000 but total loc prod points is 320.000 then research cost will be multiplied by 4.

If you set ResMod to 0 nothing will be adjusted.

best wishes,
Vic

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Post #: 75

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/14/2017 2:00:36 PM

LJBurstyn

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opps...I set ResProdRelMod to 999999999 guess that almost made research free...will reset to 0. Since research is research and larger nations always get greater progress at research because they are larger I don't think research should cost more just because the nation is larger. Since I once worked in research & development I know that some research can only be done by larger nations because smaller nations cannot afford the costs.

Well had another problem...a few days ago I smelled a burning smell but I could not find the source....last night my computer shut down because the UPS system started beeping that the battery was low (actually out of power)...found the power code that powered the UPS was not functioning because it had burned out...luckily it did not start a fire. I get the internet problem resolved at least temporarily (trees were blocking the line of sight to Mingus Mtn so the ISP moved my connection to another mountain (Squaw Peak) that is south of me and much further away (so weather conditions can interfere with the connection). They say the LTE system they are currently installing will resolve that problem for me...estimated it to be online in August which so happens to be the month I'll be gone on the Eclipse tour.

EDIT: Correction "power code" should be "power cord"--hope that didn't confuse too many of you.

Schedule update: I'll be leaving PHX on August 14th at 6 AM--which means I have to leave here before 4 AM since it's an 1.5 hour drive to PHX. Will return to PHX on August 23 at 6:40 PM--which means I will not make it home until 8 PM. The eclipse is on the 21st at 10:16 AM local time somewhere near Jackson Hole, WY.

< Message edited by LJBurstyn -- 7/15/2017 2:43:31 PM >

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Post #: 76

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/15/2017 4:18:54 PM

Ormand

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LJBurstyn

AI is hard...that's why I prefer HUMAN only games. Generally after 10 turns the AI is out of supply because it overbuilt and will lose. It simply cannot continue it's offensive no matter how aggressive it is set.

I'm not sure about this being an issue, especially this early in a game. I have been playing a random game on a medium map for 19 turns now. Yes, I am beating the stuffing out the AI, but it isn't due to a supply problem. I made the game loadable, have checked in periodically to see how things are going. And, if anything, the AI has produced too many supplies. After 19 turns the AI SHQ has > 24000 in stock and it appears that each city has been devoting 10% of its production to supplies. It is also true that the AI has only one factory still, which might be a problem with my attempt to slow their deployment down. This hasn't really affected troop balance much as I haven't been able to build many factories either due to resource limits.

Mostly, the AI's problem against me has been attrition and possibly not having enough troops up front (for some reason it has three divisions garrisoning a city near the SHQ). The AI pushed hard, almost breaking some lines, but things settled down, and over time, the AI was participating in attacks at modest odds that inflicted some causalities and helped reduce the AI units' readiness. This loss of readiness has had more to do with the AI's current problems. But, the loss of readiness is not a supply issue.

The AI attacks are much better in the newer version. In the older version it would basically commit suicide by attacking strong positions at poor odds, which inflicted heavy losses and readiness losses, from which the AI would never recover.

The AI supply issue might be something that takes hold much later with many more factories in play, but I can't say.

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Post #: 77

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/16/2017 7:30:42 AM

Vic

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Anyway if anybody has a save game where it is verifiable that the AI has large scale supply problems where it should not have them please DO send it to vic@vrdesigns.net and i'll use it to see if anything can be done to improve the ATG ai. I don't have super much time for ATG support but I do have the motivation. So send me those save games to help improve ATG please, for me it can shave of hours of work to have examples of bad AI behaviour.

Best wishes,
Vic

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Post #: 78

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/16/2017 2:14:36 PM

LJBurstyn

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Makes me wonder if the readiness loss I've seen in the AI is not related to supply...Since it is happening in units that have not been in conflict I, maybe wrongly, assumed it was related to supply. Have to check the game to see if it is supply...

EDIT: How do you open the AI side to see what "he" is doing?

< Message edited by LJBurstyn -- 7/17/2017 12:48:51 AM >

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Post #: 79

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/18/2017 1:37:32 AM

Ormand

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In the editor go to "Seting" and the bottom Proprty Sheet "Import & Other Settings", and set Loadable=TRUE as shown. This will allow you to use the button right below "Load a saved game" to load a game that you have saved. You will have to open the editor for another purpose, like a clicking the EDIT button on the front.

When it comes to editing two player games, it looks like the editor will generally show the "supply" radio button for regime 1 only. If the AI is regime 1, and the game was saved for regime 2, this will gnerally not be accurate. It will show the red out of supply radio button for most, if not all regime 1 troops. I believe that this it is trying to calculate the supply situation for that turn, but supplies went into the unit the previous turn. Thus, it isn't accurate for regime 1. So, don't worry that the red button shows. I know this because I loaded it for a two human player game, and I saw the same effect even during the human player's turn all the supply indicators are good. Goto SHQ, and you will see the supplies in store.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 80

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/18/2017 8:15:36 PM

LJBurstyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ormand

In the editor go to "Seting" and the bottom Proprty Sheet "Import & Other Settings", and set Loadable=TRUE as shown. This will allow you to use the button right below "Load a saved game" to load a game that you have saved. You will have to open the editor for another purpose, like a clicking the EDIT button on the front.

Does not work. Tried to load editor without a scenario and the scenario that created the game, set the Setting as suggested. Button starts to load scenario than comes up with message saying that game is not loadable exiting editor.

EDIT: If I knew how to attach a file I would attach my saved game but I don't so I won't.

< Message edited by LJBurstyn -- 7/18/2017 8:17:39 PM >

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Post #: 81

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/19/2017 6:46:01 AM

Ormand

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Odd. If you edit the scenario as shown, i.e., Loadable=True, when play and save a game, you should be able to load the save game within the editor. I have been doing this myself recently. I am not sure what the issue is. It isn't clear that if you attached it, it would help since I probably couldn't load it either.

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Post #: 82

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/19/2017 2:26:14 PM

Ormand

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BTW, you have to make sure this is set in the random game file, and not the masterfile.

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Post #: 83

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/19/2017 2:30:59 PM

LJBurstyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ormand

BTW, you have to make sure this is set in the random game file, and not the masterfile.

Are you referring to the game created by the game machine or another file somewhere else?

I used the create game scenario gold and it created a game where the loadable was false..is this what you are talking about...once set it appears you cannot change it once you start the game.

< Message edited by LJBurstyn -- 7/19/2017 3:43:35 PM >

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Post #: 84

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/20/2017 5:33:23 AM

Ormand

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Yes, generate a random game as usual. When it comes up, click on "edit". The game will be in the editor, and since the masterfile is attached to it, you can't edit anything like SFT's, etc. But, got to the "Setng" tab and change Loadable to true. You needn't save it unless you want it for future use. Exit the editor, and start the game, and save turns. Later enter the editor by either editing a scenario or masterfile, or just clicking on the "Editor" tab on the main screen. Then, go to "Setngs" and use the "Load a saved game" tab to get a menu to open your saved turns. The key is that the Loadable=True has to be set before you play and save turns.

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Post #: 85

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/20/2017 6:28:25 PM

LJBurstyn

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Started a new game doing the setting before actually playing and saving...have not yet reached the point where the enemy usually starts to suffer readiness penalties...but will report on the situation.

Got to do something about upgrading infantry units that uses models...having to build completely new units losing the experience of older units is tough.

During WWII.. even advanced units were upgraded with new equipment. My Dad's unit flew older C-46's until they were upgraded to C-47's almost immediately after they were deployed to China/India/Burma (CBI). Many squadrons were upgraded to new planes and tanks rather than having to build completely new units...so I think that it should be possible to upgrade almost all new equipment to old equipment units. One of my uncles (I had 15) was assigned to a tank division early in the war...he does not even remember the first tank...but he said it was OLD when he got into the Combat Team...they later upgraded to the Steward tank and later to the Sherman 76. And just before the war ended to a new Sherman with a larger gun (he did not remember how big because Germany surrendered and he was on his way home possibly to be transferred to Japan but the Nukes changed that--they left the new tanks in Europe so they could get home sooner). One of my uncles started in the infantry at Pearl Harbor (he was there on Dec 7 he was at church when the Japs attacked)...his unit fought in a lot of the battles in the pacific...they started with old (bolt action) rifles before they upgraded to the Garand. Another of my uncles (like I said I had 15) was in "Merrials" Marauders they started with bolt action rifles before they were upgraded to SMG's...they were preferred to the garand in jungle combat. Almost all my uncles were in the military during WWII some drafted but most volunteers after Pearl Harbor.

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Post #: 86

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/20/2017 9:01:24 PM

Ormand

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Some hope with upgrades coming in 227. I will work on this over the weekend. It will not enable "all" that you want with models in that I don't that it will not be possible to upgrade to any model, but to one that is specified. My plan is to make it possible to upgrade linearly from a model that was used as the base for the upgrade or improvement. This will clearly solve the rifle upgrade issue, where you will be able to upgrade Mountain Infantry I to Mountain Infantry II. But, you won't be able to upgrade Mountain Infantry I to SMG II. The same is generally true of other models, such as tanks. If you make two types of light tanks, you won't be able to upgrade from Firefly I to Churchill II. While this is technically feasible, it is more complex, and would take some careful thought as how to implement it.

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Post #: 87

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/26/2017 5:47:30 PM

Ormand

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Just uploaded new files v1.1.9. This requires ATG v227 or higher.

Changes:
1. Introduced upgrades for models (this requires v227 or higher). If a new model is created via a tech upgrade or an improvement, the previous model can be upgraded to the new model.
2. Tweaks to heavy weapons
2. Tweaks to AI role score for armor and infantry support units
3. Fixed some introduced logic errors for AI factory builds and raw and oil upgrades (I now remember that I left in a message that they are being upgraded; I'll have to remember to take that next time).
4. Did some randomization for initial starts: upgrade some raw and oil, place extra infantry and armor in cities based on a random number.

I hope I caught everything. Come Friday, 7/28, I will be more or less offline for the next three weeks.

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Post #: 88

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/28/2017 12:37:41 AM

LJBurstyn

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Got new version of 4Seasons and ATG.

Don't know if this is happening to other units but I modeled a light tank...now it will autoupgrade every time I hit the autoupgrade button until I run out of supplies. No upgrade is actually taking place.

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Post #: 89

RE: Four Seasons with Models - 7/28/2017 6:36:10 AM

Ormand

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Sorry, I don't quite understand what is happening in your case.

I did the following. Start a random game with a German regime. Created a light tank model Faust. Produced 10 of them, and put them in a unit. I then researched Tank Combat I, and improved the Faust to Faust B (the previous model became Faust A). I clicked on the FAUST A SFT in the unit and the "Text and Upgrade" window pops up. I incremented the counter by one, and hit upgrade (note if you don't increment the counter, no upgrade happens). One Faust A SFT converted to a Faust B. I then research Light Tank II. Upgraded the Faust B in the modeler, giving Faust IIa, and the Faust A and Faust B became Faust Ia and Faust IIb, respectively. I did the same procedure as before, and the Faust Ib upgraded to Faust IIa. And Faust Ia still upgraded to Faust Ib.

This all works as it should. When you start the game, does it say v1.1.9. I am wondering if I uploaded the wrong file. Also, make sure to have ATG v227B.

What do you mean by auto-upgrade?

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