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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers?

 
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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/27/2016 8:51:22 AM   
Yaab


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Let's assume I have no torpedoes for the bombers. I can go either very low and skip-bomb which sucks (low Jap bomber durability, Allied AA, fatigue and morale penalty, fewer bombs) or anywhere between 3,000-10,000 feet (still Allied AA, lower accuracy). My point is the Jap bomber loadout in the stock and Babes scenarios limit the carpet effect. Instead of 4 x 250 kg GP you could bomb with 10 x 100 GP kg from 9,000 feet and double your chance of actually hitting something. Don't sink but damage. Otherwise, the Jap level bombers without their torpedoes are only good for ground bombing.

I am not sure why the late-war Japs were hoping for a major naval battle in the vicinity of their land airbases. The bombers' anti-shipping record had been so poor up to that point, that their involvement in a naval battle would have been a complete non-issue.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 11/27/2016 10:56:59 AM >

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/27/2016 1:21:45 PM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
I am not sure why the late-war Japs were hoping for a major naval battle in the vicinity of their land airbases. The bombers' anti-shipping record had been so poor up to that point, that their involvement in a naval battle would have been a complete non-issue.

As always, their role in any major late-war naval battle was to disrupt and attrit the enemy's fleet prior to the decisive appearance
of the Mighty Japanese Carrier and Surface Fleets.

But their late war role would not involve formations of level bombers in daylight dropping hundreds of small bombs over enemy ships
from high altitude. Instead, the level bombers were primarily used as "snoopers" and torpedo bombers during the dusk till dawn
period to give them some level of survivability from Allied fighters. Any bombs involved would be delivered through high speed glide
runs or later, as Kamikazes.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 11/29/2016 12:47:20 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

As always, their role in any major late-war naval battle was to disrupt and attrit the enemy's fleet prior to the decisive appearance of the Mighty Japanese Carrier and Surface Fleets.


Basic Japanese war doctrine.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 12/21/2016 2:02:55 PM   
Yaab


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Found two more instances. Both involve resupplying Timor in 1942

Timor Conyoy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Houston_(CA-30)#World_War_II


Houston arrived at Tjilatjap 5 February and stayed until 10 February, when she left for Darwin to escort a convoy carrying troops to reinforce forces already defending Timor. Escorting USAT Meigs, SS Mauna Loa, SS Portmar, and Tulagi, Houston with the destroyer USS Peary and sloops HMAS Warrego and HMAS Swan departed Darwin before two in the morning of 15 February for Koepang. By eleven in the morning, the convoy was being shadowed by a Japanese flying boat that dropped some bombs without causing damage before departing. The next morning another shadowing aircraft had taken position, and before noon the convoy was attacked by bombers and flying boats in two waves. During the first attack, Mauna Loa suffered slight damage and two casualties, one killed and one wounded. Houston's fire showed no effects. During the second attack, Houston distinguished herself with a barrage which made her "like a sheet of flame"[8] shooting down 7 of the 44 planes of the second wave. The convoy continued toward Timor for a few hours, with Houston launching a scout plane seeking the enemy position. ABDA suspected the presence of Japanese carriers, an imminent invasion of Timor, and a support fleet lying in wait and thus ordered the convoy back to Darwin, which it reached before noon on the 18 February.

-----------------

#1. As discussed more than once in this forum, the mid-February 1942 effort involved a substantial force, among other units an Australian Pioneer battalion and the American 1st Battalion, 148th Field Artillery (NOT the 49th Artillery Battalion), aboard USAT Meigs and merchantmen Mauna Loa, Portmar, and Tulagi, escorted by USS Houston, USS Peary, HMAS Swan, and HMAS Warrego.

#2. On September 23d and 24th, at attempt to replace 2/2 Independent Company with fresh troops failed with the grounding and sinking--by attacking hostile aircraft and the subsequent scuttling--of W class destroyer HMAS Voyager.


--------
HMAS Voyager was beached/grounded prior to attack. It suffered much damage and was later dynamited by the Allies

"The first of a series of bombing raids began mid afternoon, such that by the evening there was no alternative to the detonation of demolition charges, thereby destroying the ship."

Well, the Jap level bomber record is, for the lack of other words, depressing.






(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 12/21/2016 3:37:03 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Found two more instances. Both involve resupplying Timor in 1942

Timor Conyoy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Houston_(CA-30)#World_War_II


Houston arrived at Tjilatjap 5 February and stayed until 10 February, when she left for Darwin to escort a convoy carrying troops to reinforce forces already defending Timor. Escorting USAT Meigs, SS Mauna Loa, SS Portmar, and Tulagi, Houston with the destroyer USS Peary and sloops HMAS Warrego and HMAS Swan departed Darwin before two in the morning of 15 February for Koepang. By eleven in the morning, the convoy was being shadowed by a Japanese flying boat that dropped some bombs without causing damage before departing. The next morning another shadowing aircraft had taken position, and before noon the convoy was attacked by bombers and flying boats in two waves. During the first attack, Mauna Loa suffered slight damage and two casualties, one killed and one wounded. Houston's fire showed no effects. During the second attack, Houston distinguished herself with a barrage which made her "like a sheet of flame"[8] shooting down 7 of the 44 planes of the second wave. The convoy continued toward Timor for a few hours, with Houston launching a scout plane seeking the enemy position. ABDA suspected the presence of Japanese carriers, an imminent invasion of Timor, and a support fleet lying in wait and thus ordered the convoy back to Darwin, which it reached before noon on the 18 February.

-----------------

#1. As discussed more than once in this forum, the mid-February 1942 effort involved a substantial force, among other units an Australian Pioneer battalion and the American 1st Battalion, 148th Field Artillery (NOT the 49th Artillery Battalion), aboard USAT Meigs and merchantmen Mauna Loa, Portmar, and Tulagi, escorted by USS Houston, USS Peary, HMAS Swan, and HMAS Warrego.

#2. On September 23d and 24th, at attempt to replace 2/2 Independent Company with fresh troops failed with the grounding and sinking--by attacking hostile aircraft and the subsequent scuttling--of W class destroyer HMAS Voyager.


--------
HMAS Voyager was beached/grounded prior to attack. It suffered much damage and was later dynamited by the Allies

"The first of a series of bombing raids began mid afternoon, such that by the evening there was no alternative to the detonation of demolition charges, thereby destroying the ship."

Well, the Jap level bomber record is, for the lack of other words, depressing.


I'm not sure what you are illustrating with this - the vulnerability of Japanese bombers or the fact that they did attack ships in 1942 in daylight?
The part you bolded may refer to low flying patrol aircraft or float planes that are very slow and vulnerable. At that time the Japanese commanders were not yet worried about their losses and would throw anything at their enemy "for the glory of the emperor".

And you haven't mentioned all the Allied ships damaged and sunk by LBA during those early days of the war when Japanese pilots were well trained and experienced and Allied AA and fighters were scarce. So Japanese LBA can be useful against ships if the pilots are good and they have lots of fighter protection and fly high enough and have enough numbers to get some hits. (that's 3 "ands" in one sentence ). The game does allow the IJ player to develop and keep good pilots, and build some bombers that are more survivable than Betties and Nells.

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(in reply to Yaab)
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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 12/21/2016 3:40:04 PM   
Yaab


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I am just looking at the historical record of Jap level bomber attacks against Allied ships, in which bombers used bombs, that's all. In the game, Jap level bombers flying with torpedoes are deadlier than they were in the RL. I was wondering if the same could be said against level bombers armed with bombs.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 12/21/2016 4:04:04 PM   
BBfanboy


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There was another thread about four months ago that discussed a lot of this. Houston took a bomb hit before the Battle of the Java Sea. Marblehead was badly damaged and forced to limp home (halfway around the world to EC USA) so it missed that battle. Lots of ships fleeing Singapore were bombed, some sunk - but they were nearly all helpless civilian ships.
At Guadalcanal transport George F. Elliot was hit by a bomb and set afire. I am sure there are lots more but compared to what the Allies later did to shipping it was not so devastating.

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RE: List of ships sunk by Jap level bombers? - 12/21/2016 4:17:57 PM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

There was another thread about four months ago that discussed a lot of this. Houston took a bomb hit before the Battle of the Java Sea. Marblehead was badly damaged and forced to limp home (halfway around the world to EC USA) so it missed that battle. Lots of ships fleeing Singapore were bombed, some sunk - but they were nearly all helpless civilian ships.
At Guadalcanal transport George F. Elliot was hit by a bomb and set afire. I am sure there are lots more but compared to what the Allies later did to shipping it was not so devastating.


The USS George F. Elliot was hit by a bomber rather than a bomb during the attempted torpedo attack by Japanese aircraft on Aug 8th, 1942.

And just as a clarification on Yaab's example of the Houston convoy, the Japanese records for the air units involved (1st and Toko Ku) show no aircraft
lost during their attack which was made at a higher than normal altitude due to the Houston's effective 5" AA fire (now that she had received working
shells from the USS Boise).

_____________________________

This was the only sig line I could think of.

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