[FIXED v1.12] Possible issue with LGB Release

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[FIXED v1.12] Possible issue with LGB Release

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[FIXED v1.12] Possible issue with LGB Release - 11/21/2016 8:38:16 AM

tango4

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/19/2014
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Sorry guys, I posted this two weeks ago in tech support forum, but I did not have any answer, so I try to repost it here.
I just wanted to make just it was not lost among other posts.
Of course, this is absolutely not an urgent matter, I's just be glad if you could take a look someday.

Here is the original post:

Hi guys,

As always, let me start first by the usual big thanks to the team for your continued support.
I have detected a behavior that might be unrealistic regarding Laser Guided Bomb Release.

I detected this issue a while ago in the scenario Fighter Weapons School - GAT 5 and 6, 1977.
In order to reproduce the issue easily, I created a test version of this scenario, removing enemy presence, and leaving only the four targets. I then created a savegame which shows the issue and that you can get here (sorry, I still can't manage to upload on those matrix forums).
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p6f1ccr7a08zz5i/GBU%20test.save?dl=0

Now, the issue (or at least what I think might be an issue: the idea here is that I would like your opinion on this point):
As you can see when you load the save, you have one strike mission created involving a group of 2 F-4 Phantoms equipped each with two GBU-10. The targets for the mission are the 4 A/C Revetment.
Before pressing start/resume, make sure you activate illumination vectors and targeting vectors.
Normally, you should have 4 targeting vectors, one for each target.
My problem with what happens is that sometimes, I am able to destroy all 4 targets or 3 of them in a single run.
Basically, when the aircraft approach target area, each of them is going to pick ONE target, illuminate it and release ONE bomb. With the speed they have, when the bombs impact their targets, normally, the aircraft have not yet overflown their target. Yet in less than 3 seconds, the aircraft are able to release their second bomb (which in itself is OK) but sometimes ON A DIFFERENT TARGET (although it does not happen every single time: you should run my savegame several times, and/or adjust the IP to observe it precisely). This is what I feel might be unrealistic. I don't see how it is possible to acquire a new target in less than 3 seconds and release a bomb on it accurately.

Could you please give me your opinion on this ?
If I was not clear enough, don't hesitate to tell me, I can try to explain it better.

Good night !

Charles

< Message edited by emsoy -- 4/9/2017 8:52:12 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 11/21/2016 9:53:37 AM

Cik

Posts: 671
Joined: 10/5/2016
Status: offline

yes, it's unrealistic. LGBs don't really even steer until they are in the basket and that won't be for at least release+5 seconds (unless the launching aircraft is in a nose-down attitude; something aircraft in this game don't do for LGB)

you shouldn't actually be able to do this unless you have several bombs homing several different lasercodes, and then several different illuminating lasers on those same codes.

i know at least you can do this on a modern aircraft with a little work, though whether it's actually done in practice i'm not certain. in the 70s though, i'm not sure that selectable lasercodes were even a thing.

as for selecting a different target being possible: it is, the problem is though that you would be way past parameters by the time the first bomb impacted the first target. pretty much regardless of the speed of the jet (because the speed of the jet is what determines how far you can "throw" the bomb) the GBU would go way over the target, probably missing the laserspot entirely due to seeker limitations.

< Message edited by Cik -- 11/21/2016 9:56:34 AM >

(in reply to tango4)

Post #: 2

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 11/21/2016 10:28:14 AM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline

Charles you may have a point on the 3 second retargeting. We'll take a look.

Next version we have enabled some new behavior allowing aircraft to standoff. Please do look at and let us know what you think.

Sorry for the delay. We've been very busy but you'd posts are important to us!

Mike

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Post #: 3

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 11/21/2016 11:44:43 AM

tango4

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Joined: 6/19/2014
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Thanks guys !
I'll take a look when you release the new version.

Mike, just FYI I was not expecting such a fast answer ! Just to be clear, what worried me is that there was no "acknowledgment" that you guys had not missed my post altogether, that's all. I perfectly understand that you have a lot on your plate. Can't wait for the update !

Charles

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 4

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 11/21/2016 2:20:32 PM

mikmykWS

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tango4

Thanks guys !
I'll take a look when you release the new version.

Mike, just FYI I was not expecting such a fast answer ! Just to be clear, what worried me is that there was no "acknowledgment" that you guys had not missed my post altogether, that's all. I perfectly understand that you have a lot on your plate. Can't wait for the update !

Charles

Yeah sorry Charles. We were in England training some pro's on the sim. So lots of work and travel. I do remember seeing the post but pretty sure it was late and I just didn't respond.

Mike

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Post #: 5

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 11/21/2016 10:19:34 PM

zaytsev

Posts: 99
Joined: 6/16/2014
Status: offline

Hi Tango, devs...

Well this is actually footage from the sim , cant guarantee that is even similar with real operation, but to me it makes sense.
No tinkering with laser codes , just using freefall gravity and timing, you could be able to hit 2 targets in one pass with 2 lgb's on the same channel.
Only caveat is that targets must be next to each-other , similar like your example, 2 hangars in a row.

See the the video for explanation, (even I've seen better deliveries than that, but it will suffice)
cc. there were old original footage on fas.org. from hornets in Allied Force, '99 over Bosnia, think I've seen similar thing, painting one target until detonation, then quickly move beam some 100-200 feet onto another target, difference was cca. 5sec.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiLTC28daXA#t=257.396086

Regards

(in reply to mikmykWS)

Post #: 6

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 11/22/2016 5:47:03 AM

Cik

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Joined: 10/5/2016
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FBMS 4.32 overmodelled paveway II maneuvering capabilities quite a bit, and this still isn't what the aircraft in C:MANO is actually really doing; in the video the guy drops his bomb(s) with a few second spacing. in C:MANO the aircraft drops one, fires his laser until impact, then while he is almost over the target he reacquires (not impossible) and drops a second bomb that then hits the target (impossible due to bomb kinetics from a fast-moving aircraft)

it isn't really a big deal. you can abstract it a little by just increasing TGP reacquire time a little so he can't reacquire before flying over the target if you don't want to model all the obnoxious bomb kinetic energy mechanics.

that said it would be cool if you did anyway.

can we get some loft profiles, too? pretty pretty please?

(in reply to zaytsev)

Post #: 7

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 11/22/2016 7:34:21 AM

tango4

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/19/2014
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Hi guys, Thanks for your inputs.
CIk, I do agree with you, as you say, both situations are different, and although you can quickly slew your TGP to acquire another very close target, you bomb could probably not maneuver to hit it.
And in my example, bombs were not released in sequence.
This is clearly no big deal, indeed.

(in reply to Cik)

Post #: 8

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 4/9/2017 8:53:06 AM

ComDev

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This should work better with Dimitris' kinematics improvements.

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(in reply to tango4)

Post #: 9

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 4/12/2017 1:54:53 PM

tango4

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/19/2014
Status: offline

Thanks a lot guys !

Am I correct to assume that in the 1.12 changelog, it is the item labeled "* Aircraft stand-off adjustments" that covers this issue ?

And by the way, are there any news regarding TOT planner ?

Don't have much time to play CMANO right now, but I'll be sure to buy the latest DLC anyway because you guys really deserve it. Your dedication and support are outstanding.

Charles

(in reply to ComDev)

Post #: 10

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 4/20/2017 7:34:30 PM

tango4

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Bump, just in case.

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Post #: 11

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 4/20/2017 8:45:27 PM

ComDev

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Stand-off adjustments - no that was something else. The kinematics model has been adjusted for the bombs.

TOT planner - not sure when that will happen.

Thanks

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Post #: 12

RE: Possible issue with LGB Release - 4/20/2017 9:20:39 PM

tango4

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/19/2014
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Thanks a lot, and apologies for the misunderstanding. I thought it was a targeting issue, but I can see how more realistic kinematics would prevent the "second launch" issue I had.
Anyway, it seems to be working now.

Many thanks for your time and efforts.

Charles

(in reply to ComDev)

Post #: 13