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China and the fate of the world...again

 
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China and the fate of the world...again - 12/30/2016 8:22:09 PM   
Vanman

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 11/23/2012
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In our first game, Japan had pushed back China significantly and the Soviets came to their aid (1940). Although Barbarossa took place in 41' and the Germans were doing fairly well,
by July/August Japan collapsed like a house of cards due to a lack of land units (economy reduced to 8 bps). There was no coming back for Nippon. We ended the game and
decided to install a 3:1 garrison rule going forward (this really needs to be a high priority for coding, ahead of any other optional rules).

A few games later we are in a similar situation. Going into March/April 1941. In 39' Italy miscalculated in Greece and ended up losing Libya for it. Balkans under Axis jackboot and
France Vichyfied. Although Mao's forces are looking secure huddled around Si-An, the Nationalists are falling apart down south. Soviet forces quickly moved to Asia, around 10 corp and
basically the entire Red Air Force. Germany is starting to lineup for Barby. Japan should have reinforced up north (anticipation), but the Russians can reinforce the area so much easier
(with adjacent cities) its too little too late and the USSR are marching into Manchuria. So Japan is now vulnerable to the Soviets, the latter now more vulnerable to the Germans, and
fortress Europe potentially vulnerable to a Commonwealth which has a bit of a free hand (though the Med is 50/50). US entry currently around 15-20.

China was the trigger for these two game of Domino's. If China gets reduced to a fairly small size, do the Allies really have that much to fear? Sure the bulk of Japan's army gets
freed up, but some of those forces are needed for the Pacific expansion, Malaya, Burma, Chinese/Manchurian garrison etc. Although Japan could do quite a bit of damage to the Allies,
it cannot eliminate a Great Power (unlike Germany). Is the Soviet player overreacting? Can they handle a two front war? Would it have been better for the USSR not to attack Japan
and simply have the Commonwealth pick up the slack and sent more units to Asia? I guess the bottom line question is, how important is China?
Post #: 1
RE: China and the fate of the world...again - 12/31/2016 7:07:07 AM   
Jagdtiger14


Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline
In my opinion, not that important. Its all about timing. As Japan I try to do the best I can vs China '39-'40. Come 1941 I'm looking for defensive positions to hold vs China and try to keep as many Chinese resources flowing to Japan. In 1941 a good portion of units in China need to be used in the Pacific/Indian ocean theaters. The most important thing for Japan is the fleet...creating defensive rings and using white print units, land based air, etc... I consider NEI probably more important than China.

Japan can hold (or take) just about anything on the coast...including Vlad. My WiF group has almost always played with USSR/Japan surrender. Its a good rule and I agree it should probably be the next option coded. You can still do this manually though.

If the Allies lose USSR, that's pretty much a death blow. USSR player has to prioritize its own survival over anything happening in the far east.

Japan can put pressure on CW in the Indian Ocean. However, Japan is a paper tiger.

_____________________________

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

(in reply to Vanman)
Post #: 2
RE: China and the fate of the world...again - 12/31/2016 11:12:21 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
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It's not a matter of Surrender or Not. Even with 3 resources less it's game over for Japan. If you do not realize that, probably there is a problem in how you perceive the game.
The issue is map related - since WiF is balanced around tabletop maps and not MWiF maps.

That is why China has a problem against a decise Japan (Though not as much as Japan has a problem against a Soviet offensive) as they need to man a much larger frontline.
But that is the only responsability for China - and they can still "turtle" decently in some spots and hold til Japan is bound to get to war with the USA.
On the other hand if Japan is DoW'ed as well from Russia, it's game over. Soviet forces simply sweep over the ample plains in Manchuria and cripple Japan production. Then Japan has no way to fight against USA because of being short of means.
The solution in my eyes is quite simple and straightforward, and would need a very simple custom change.

If the Soviets DoW Japan, USA takes a hit of 6 chits (as per a -60 on the table).
That may save China but will delay Embargo and other pressures on Japan for quite a while to give some breather to the poor Japanese that will find themselves on the short ropes on two fronts for which they've not the units for, that ontop that 1 year delay of USA war (or about that) still would leave them pants down with the navy if they lose resources and have to keep many troops inland in Manchuria and China. (With what they do invade islands, and mostly protect their major bases?)

Currently it's a no brainer for Soviets to DoW Japan, it's "maybe" 1 chit, which is laughable for the effects it has on Japan. And once Soviets have taken these 3 cheap resources (assuming there is a Surrender rule), these are 3 resources will pump even more troops vs the Germans.

Even with regular WiF Map I see it a gamey / too cheap move - BUT at least the smaller map allows better land defence and Manchuria (even Japan technically and its coasts for notionals!) are much better defendable.

When I played with my friend at MWiF we simply House Ruled that Soviets -cannot- in absolute terms DoW Japan; Japan is free to DoW them but then if Japan does that, there is no "surrender" rule to save them.

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 3
RE: China and the fate of the world...again - 12/31/2016 1:43:43 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
It all depends on what Japan is doing. If they go all out in China, they are asking for a Soviet DoW on them. The Japanese are capable of conquering China. They only need some luck (and not a lot of it), if they are prepared to throw the "kitchen sink" at the Chinese. If the Japanese decide to move the carrier planes into the reserve pool, they get more pilots for the remaining bombers in that pool and can start hammering the Chinese.
However, the Japanese can only go after the Chinese, if they don't keep enough units in Manchuria. In my opinion, the new map isn't to be blamed. The Japanese simply have to keep 6 corps in Manchuria doing nothing. That's not very nice, but it's a fact. No way the Soviets will attack Japan with such a force sitting in Manchuria. But that means: stalemate in China.

How historically accurate... So I would not start any game with changing the US entry die roll for a Soviet-Japanese war, nor with a Soviet-Japanese neutrality pact in place. However, I agree that the Japanese-Soviet compulsory peace optional rule is very important to be put into place in the game (however, one can use that rule, by putting things in place manually, except for the second US entry die roll if either of the powers can break that pact and start a second Japanese-Soviet war).


_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 4
RE: China and the fate of the world...again - 12/31/2016 3:54:30 PM   
brian brian

 

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Joined: 11/16/2005
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I think in Vanman's first referenced game an Axis decision to stop in 1941 might indicate a weak German 'Barbarossa' attack - a lot of force left in the West, or in the Med. A 1941 Barbarossa is one of the most powerful Axis strategies. Sometimes the reality of that won't be seen until the summer 1942 turns however. But if Russia is strongly invested in the Far East during a 1941 Barbarossa, they should be paying a price in Europe.

One solution to this perceived problem (I don't completely agree that it is a problem), is to use Chinese Attack Weakness. The Chinese are ridiculously over-powered in the game as compared to history, including the Chinese Communists. Some players don't like it, because they want to attack things and feel using Attack Weakness isn't "fair". Aside from the realism of the Chinese pieces, they greatly benefit from being able to take a land impulse every single time, which Japan can not.

One shortcut we take via House Rule is to include the ChiComms in the Attack Weakness.

I would like to see the game formally address the Chinese capabilities in some future edition by making the Chinese Nationalists subject to US Activity Limits. Which has a solid basis in history as the Americans had to continually cajole Chiang to do anything at all in the war, and spent probably dozens of Build Points to achieve essentially none of their War Aims via China. The Chinese contributed a few divisions of infantry, totally at American expense, to the inconsequential Burma front, and that was it.


As for what Japan can do given the state of the game, one is to wait for a common USSR attack on Persia and then attack the USSR itself. This gives them some oil and puts many USSR resources, and one factory, at risk, with the Japanese holding the strategic initiative, something different from, and more valuable, than the turn by turn initiative. The danger of a successful 1941 Barbarossa for the Axis is so high that it is not a bad choice for the Russians to leave a bare minimum of delaying forces against the Japanese while they pray the Panzers can't reach Baku and cross the Volga, which they frequently can if the Allies are slack on preventing that. If the Russians want to get serious in Manchuria in 1940, the Germans can reap the reward as the Russians discover the through-put limits on their railroads, trying to move factories and troops at the same time.

In a 1942 Barbarossa scenario, Japan is in a tougher spot. But here again, consider alternatives. It is fun to build those wonderful mid-war Japanese CVs, but what Japan really needs to do is build out their ground force pool, and keep it empty. As an absolute priority. A CV is a 7-8 BP investment in a piece that might only fight one battle, and is essentially a piece for carrying the fight to the enemy. Land-based air is a far cheaper way to defend the Empire. (Hint: by mid-war, consider an air impulse at times for Japan). If Japan also keeps their FTR2 and NAV pool empty, they have many quality units to confront the Americans with. A 6 point air combat long range Zero can fight the USA at least twice and possibly three times for the same price as a CV. The junkier designs can be used to game the Partisan rules in Korea and China, while anything with an air-to-sea factor can fight the US Submarines, one of Japan's most key battles.

For Japan I would also consider specialty units, though they are expensive. A mechanized division with local garrisons and a LND3 can be pretty handy for dealing with Chinese raids. Paratroopers can also threaten Chinese and Russian rear areas, possibly arriving escorted by Zeroes if necessary. One blocked rail hex and the USSR loses up to four resources, possibly at a critical time.

But overall Japan is an egg-shell power, still defeated despite the USA's "Europe First" policy in history. The best way to defend Japan is to be successful with Germany.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 5
RE: China and the fate of the world...again - 12/31/2016 5:23:11 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I think in Vanman's first referenced game an Axis decision to stop in 1941 might indicate a weak German 'Barbarossa' attack - a lot of force left in the West, or in the Med. A 1941 Barbarossa is one of the most powerful Axis strategies. Sometimes the reality of that won't be seen until the summer 1942 turns however. But if Russia is strongly invested in the Far East during a 1941 Barbarossa, they should be paying a price in Europe.

One solution to this perceived problem (I don't completely agree that it is a problem), is to use Chinese Attack Weakness. The Chinese are ridiculously over-powered in the game as compared to history, including the Chinese Communists. Some players don't like it, because they want to attack things and feel using Attack Weakness isn't "fair". Aside from the realism of the Chinese pieces, they greatly benefit from being able to take a land impulse every single time, which Japan can not.

One shortcut we take via House Rule is to include the ChiComms in the Attack Weakness.

I would like to see the game formally address the Chinese capabilities in some future edition by making the Chinese Nationalists subject to US Activity Limits. Which has a solid basis in history as the Americans had to continually cajole Chiang to do anything at all in the war, and spent probably dozens of Build Points to achieve essentially none of their War Aims via China. The Chinese contributed a few divisions of infantry, totally at American expense, to the inconsequential Burma front, and that was it.


As for what Japan can do given the state of the game, one is to wait for a common USSR attack on Persia and then attack the USSR itself. This gives them some oil and puts many USSR resources, and one factory, at risk, with the Japanese holding the strategic initiative, something different from, and more valuable, than the turn by turn initiative. The danger of a successful 1941 Barbarossa for the Axis is so high that it is not a bad choice for the Russians to leave a bare minimum of delaying forces against the Japanese while they pray the Panzers can't reach Baku and cross the Volga, which they frequently can if the Allies are slack on preventing that. If the Russians want to get serious in Manchuria in 1940, the Germans can reap the reward as the Russians discover the through-put limits on their railroads, trying to move factories and troops at the same time.

In a 1942 Barbarossa scenario, Japan is in a tougher spot. But here again, consider alternatives. It is fun to build those wonderful mid-war Japanese CVs, but what Japan really needs to do is build out their ground force pool, and keep it empty. As an absolute priority. A CV is a 7-8 BP investment in a piece that might only fight one battle, and is essentially a piece for carrying the fight to the enemy. Land-based air is a far cheaper way to defend the Empire. (Hint: by mid-war, consider an air impulse at times for Japan). If Japan also keeps their FTR2 and NAV pool empty, they have many quality units to confront the Americans with. A 6 point air combat long range Zero can fight the USA at least twice and possibly three times for the same price as a CV. The junkier designs can be used to game the Partisan rules in Korea and China, while anything with an air-to-sea factor can fight the US Submarines, one of Japan's most key battles.

For Japan I would also consider specialty units, though they are expensive. A mechanized division with local garrisons and a LND3 can be pretty handy for dealing with Chinese raids. Paratroopers can also threaten Chinese and Russian rear areas, possibly arriving escorted by Zeroes if necessary. One blocked rail hex and the USSR loses up to four resources, possibly at a critical time.

But overall Japan is an egg-shell power, still defeated despite the USA's "Europe First" policy in history. The best way to defend Japan is to be successful with Germany.


I agree with the things mentioned here. It's the way one should play Japan. Only one thing is there to add: don't forget to build convoy points and the SYNTH. The moment Japan is out of oil is the moment they are ripe for the taking...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 6
RE: China and the fate of the world...again - 12/31/2016 6:07:05 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
My take on all of this discussion is that 2 major powers versus 1 usually defeats the 1 in MWIF.

So:

If the Chinese and USSR [ignoring Germany] are at war with Japan, Japan isn't going to do well.

If Germany (ignoring the Med) and Japan (ignoring China) both go after the USSR, the USSR isn't going to do well.

If Germany (ignoring the USSR for a year) and Italy go after the Commonwealth, then the Commonwealth is going to lose the Med.

The main exception here is that Germany can take out France despite the Commonwealth coming to France' assistance.

Another exception is that Japan can take out China if the USSR doesn't intervene and Japan ignores the threat of the US attack in 1942+.

In conclusion, a lot depends on timing and how well you play. Poor play gives your opponent TIME. Good play gives you TIME.


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 7
RE: China and the fate of the world...again - 1/19/2017 3:32:11 PM   
Viktor_Kormel_slith


Posts: 372
Joined: 11/14/2013
Status: offline
we had a similar topic about China here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4178980 In my opinion, China is very vulnerable against Japan in MWIF, I don´t like it, but by other way, conquering china it´s not so decisive in MWIF than WIF. In several of our games in MWIF, Japan conquered China But Japan was conquered in every game at the end of the game. About USSR, it is true that USSR have a lot to say about it but usually if german player is a good or lucky one the USSR´s freedom to act is very limited.

_____________________________

Sorry, for my bad english! "Wiffing" since 1990 to the tomb!

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 8
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