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Air Questions- fka Night air operations - 1/5/2017 2:02:09 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Can night fighters or fighters set to night missions fly escort for bombers on bomb unit and/or bomb airfield missions at night mode? Or are those escorts strictly limited to partisan resupply? I am conducting a test and can only seem to get bombers to launch an attack on an airbase at night, yet night fighter intercept allows enemy fighters to fly then. Something isn't making sense here.

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 1/6/2017 1:22:41 AM >
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RE: Night air operations - 1/5/2017 2:26:27 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Status: offline 		Bombers fly alone at night without escort.

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RE: Night air operations - 1/5/2017 4:36:32 AM   
BlueAndGray

 

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Status: offline 		The British were fairly accomplished at engaging Luftwaffe night fighters, but they worked hard to make it work and they were the pioneers in airborne radar equipped fighters from the start. They deployed their first radar equipped night fighters in 1939 and it still took years before they really got proficient at it. It still took them a lot of experimentation with radars, airframes, and tactics to protect their nighttime bomber raids from Luftwaffe night fighters. Read up on No. 100 Group RAF for some interesting/relevant information on night fighter intercepts. They claimed 258 kills for 70 losses although I'd suspect the kill numbers were probably somewhat inflated. (in the best of circumstances day fighters tended to overcount kills on both sides - at night it would be very difficult to accurately confirm a kill). That being said what they did is an astonishing feat that probably wasn't matched by any other country's night fighters.

The other powers generally didn't have a need for it and didn't push to develop it. The Germans and Russians mainly did harassment raids with obsolete biplanes that fly very low and very slow and were difficult to target (U-2 and Go-145) and the US primarily did daylight bombing.

If anything it is somewhat strange that WitE allows for effective tactical bombing raids. Front-line units generally would be blacked out and very difficult to target effectively. Dive bombing relies on being able to see your target or you're just going to bomb some farmer's field and kill his cows. I did see the new patch is going to limit the effectiveness of night bombing by 50% - even that is probably being VERY generous. There were very valid reasons why historically large scale close air support/tactical bombing was performed during the day and not at night (again with the exception of harassment raids by obsolete aircraft).

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RE: Night air operations - 1/5/2017 2:19:31 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueAndGray

quote:

If anything it is somewhat strange that WitE allows for effective tactical bombing raids. Front-line units generally would be blacked out and very difficult to target effectively. Dive bombing relies on being able to see your target or you're just going to bomb some farmer's field and kill his cows. I did see the new patch is going to limit the effectiveness of night bombing by 50% - even that is probably being VERY generous. There were very valid reasons why historically large scale close air support/tactical bombing was performed during the day and not at night (again with the exception of harassment raids by obsolete aircraft).



It depends what you mean by effective? As a newbie I was very disappointed by air attack on ground units which killed\destroyed very little. Now I know their value lies in what they disrupt, so are "effective" if followed by ground combat or are in support of a ground attack. Alone they remain ineffective and contribute relatively little when compared to what kind of ground troops you use.

Are there any tips or tricks to using night fighters. I have 3 airbases with night fighters spaced out slightly to the rear but in command range and close to where partisan resupplies fly to, but only occasionally get 1 night interception each turn. Is this as expected or am I doing something wrong and could get more?

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RE: Night air operations - 1/5/2017 2:56:34 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		The original question was raised because Dinglir lost 80% of his attacking bombers on a night mission vs. an airbase. I'm now assuming those were all due to German flak, which got a good sized buff in an earlier patch. That seems extreme, but it wasn't clear how many AA weapons he flew into. Personally I do almost no night operations, except for occasional partisan supply drops.

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RE: Night air operations - 1/5/2017 3:16:45 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

The original question was raised because Dinglir lost 80% of his attacking bombers on a night mission vs. an airbase. I'm now assuming those were all due to German flak, which got a good sized buff in an earlier patch. That seems extreme, but it wasn't clear how many AA weapons he flew into. Personally I do almost no night operations, except for occasional partisan supply drops.


Enemy fighters set on night missions can still intercept the bombers. Thus his losses could be from both night fighter intercept, flak, and other mitigating circumstances(i.e. flying at night but Morvael needs to confirm possible tie)

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RE: Night air operations - 1/5/2017 9:11:51 PM   
BlueAndGray

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

The original question was raised because Dinglir lost 80% of his attacking bombers on a night mission vs. an airbase. I'm now assuming those were all due to German flak, which got a good sized buff in an earlier patch. That seems extreme, but it wasn't clear how many AA weapons he flew into. Personally I do almost no night operations, except for occasional partisan supply drops.


Enemy fighters set on night missions can still intercept the bombers. Thus his losses could be from both night fighter intercept, flak, and other mitigating circumstances(i.e. flying at night but Morvael needs to confirm possible tie)


You would think that a generic fighter unit without the proper equipment (airborne radar which generally only fits on larger aircraft), training, and tactics would be flat out terrible at night interception. Even with everything being perfect night interception would be extremely difficult. This would be greatly impacted by the bomber tactics used as well. Medium to high altitude bombers flying in formation over long distances would be somewhat easy to intercept. U-2VS tactical bombers flying at treetop level (below radar) in small formations and hitting frontline targets (short-range) would be very difficult to engage. Searchlights and flares would help somewhat, but you would probably have to get very lucky to even locate a target to shoot at.

My point is that I'm a bit surprised by an 80% loss rate for a night raid. There was a good reason that Britain went to night bombing - it greatly reduced their loss rate (at the expense of accuracy against anything other than area targets).

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Air Question #2 - airfield bombing - 1/6/2017 1:21:07 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		HardLuckYetAgain attacked my airfield.



I lost 8 fighters, but not sure exactly how. What does 3:9 Mig-3 mean?

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RE: Night air operations - 1/6/2017 10:35:15 AM   
TheOne

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

The original question was raised because Dinglir lost 80% of his attacking bombers on a night mission vs. an airbase. I'm now assuming those were all due to German flak, which got a good sized buff in an earlier patch. That seems extreme, but it wasn't clear how many AA weapons he flew into. Personally I do almost no night operations, except for occasional partisan supply drops.


Someone told me you can get these very same results with the WitW system and it has more to do with just planes and AA.

That someone has been testing WitW systems now for 6 months, so guessing there are allot of interesting results to come in the future.




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RE: Air Question #2 - airfield bombing - 1/6/2017 12:53:30 PM   
GabrielBora

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

HardLuckYetAgain attacked my airfield.



I lost 8 fighters, but not sure exactly how. What does 3:9 Mig-3 mean?


The airgroup equip with Migs was stationed on the airfield that was bombed by german bombers. ( not sure if the Lagg airgroup was stationed on the same airbase but it is most likely)
6 out of the surviving 9 Migs are also damaged .
3= READY, 9=Total

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RE: Air Question #2 - airfield bombing - 1/6/2017 9:46:04 PM   
TheOne

 

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Status: offline 		If you have a good teacher its like this.






Attachment (1)

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Viva México

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RE: Air Question #2 - airfield bombing - 1/6/2017 9:49:32 PM   
TheOne

 

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Joined: 10/26/2016
Status: offline 		100%




WAD




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by TheOne -- 1/6/2017 9:50:07 PM >

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RE: Air Question #2 - airfield bombing - 1/11/2017 6:11:11 PM   
Wheat

 

Posts: 154
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Status: offline 		Regardless of the 100%, it seems an abnormally high number of German fighters lost this early in the war. Turn 5 and the Krauts are losing 1:5. Not good for the Germans imo.

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