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Re: non sequitur my a$$ - 5/30/2003 5:04:10 AM   
Chiteng

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MemoryLeak
[B]-mdiehl

I believe you know the point that I'm making.

Lets say--
Your opponent's POV is wrong.
Your (mdiehl)'s POV is wrong.
A third, as yet unstated, POV is right.
How does your acquiescence to your opponents POV equate to "making you accurate"?
If you'd said it makes you open minded, I wouldn't have written in the first place. [/B][/QUOTE]

Because he is unwilling to conceed me credibility on any point.
My existance offends him =)
As if I care =)

_____________________________

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French Priest

"Statistic

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Post #: 121
- 5/30/2003 5:17:51 AM   
madflava13


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Ok, even I am sick of arguing this stuff, and I'm in law school... That should tell you something.

Let's all play nice. He who gets the last word in doesn't get a prize.

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Post #: 122
- 5/30/2003 5:22:12 AM   
Chiteng

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by madflava13
[B]Ok, even I am sick of arguing this stuff, and I'm in law school... That should tell you something.

Let's all play nice. He who gets the last word in doesn't get a prize. [/B][/QUOTE]

Then you know the futility of arguing AD HOC.

Given the nature of the board, ALL statements are no more than opinions.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Chiteng)
Post #: 123
- 5/30/2003 5:29:11 AM   
madflava13


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Right, opinions with some fact mixed in... But the point is we're getting no where with this, so let's all just agree to disagree for now. When we hear something from the game designers about this, we can rekindle... Until then, I say let's let it go.

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Post #: 124
- 5/30/2003 5:42:47 AM   
mdiehl

 

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[QUOTE]I believe you know the point that I'm making.

Lets say--
Your opponent's POV is wrong.
Your (mdiehl)'s POV is wrong.
A third, as yet unstated, POV is right.
How does your acquiescence to your opponents POV equate to "making you accurate"?
If you'd said it makes you open minded, I wouldn't have written in the first place.[/QUOTE]

No I don't know he point you're trying to make and not following you I guess. If you feel like running down your logic on that you can send me a private message. The quip to Mike was hardly worth all this attention on the thread.

What was all this about... fleet assets. How did PH become part of this? I dunno. Any connections? Not many that I see except that the D3A (a kind of asset carried by the fleet) was not going to carry any munitions with enough explosive force to substantially damage a machine tool, substantial concrete structure, or dry dock.

I wonder about the Kate. Have to look up some factoids on that one. As a level bomber it's not going to have a prayer of sufficient accuracy to hit anything important in a dry dock gate, or an important valve suite. I wonder if it will carry enough payload to mount a substantial bomb?

_____________________________

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Post #: 125
- 5/30/2003 6:57:04 AM   
Chiteng

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mdiehl
[B]No I don't know he point you're trying to make and not following you I guess. If you feel like running down your logic on that you can send me a private message. The quip to Mike was hardly worth all this attention on the thread.

What was all this about... fleet assets. How did PH become part of this? I dunno. Any connections? Not many that I see except that the D3A (a kind of asset carried by the fleet) was not going to carry any munitions with enough explosive force to substantially damage a machine tool, substantial concrete structure, or dry dock.

I wonder about the Kate. Have to look up some factoids on that one. As a level bomber it's not going to have a prayer of sufficient accuracy to hit anything important in a dry dock gate, or an important valve suite. I wonder if it will carry enough payload to mount a substantial bomb? [/B][/QUOTE]

Seems to me that it had enough to carry a torpedo =)
As for accuracy, well you know there is this thing called PRACTICE,
which the Pearl Harbor strike force did for a considerable
period of time.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

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Post #: 126
- 5/30/2003 9:09:39 AM   
Nikademus


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chiteng
[B]Seems to me that it had enough to carry a torpedo =)
As for accuracy, well you know there is this thing called PRACTICE,
which the Pearl Harbor strike force did for a considerable
period of time. [/B][/QUOTE]

The B5N could lug a 811.2kg AP bomb if utilized in a level bomber role.

Kates did well at Pearl Harbor dropping them from 10,000 feet.

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Post #: 127
IJN Bombs - 5/30/2003 10:01:18 AM   
mogami


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Hi, The Kate was often used as a level bomber (1650lb bomb load) Each IJN carrier had between 15-40 810kg bombs onboard as the normal load out (I think they carried extras for PH)
This bomb is often overlooked in wargames. The carriers can't make repeated attacks (since they only carry enough for 1 or 2)
They carry several hundred of the 250kg bomb (which was sheldom carried by a Kate.)

Bombs carried by IJN CV (I'll have to dig up the standard load out by carrier class- The mag storage racks are designed to hold a specific bomb so it is possible to know normal loads carried.
60kg
125kg
250kg
500kg
800kg
Torpedo

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Post #: 128
- 5/30/2003 10:01:24 AM   
mdiehl

 

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[QUOTE]Kates did well at Pearl Harbor dropping them from 10,000 feet.[/QUOTE]

Define "well." IRC reading (I think it was in one of these threads so its about as asuthoritative as nothing) that the only B5N AP bomb that hit a target was the one that accidently hit Arizona. Hitting a parked BB is not exactly a skills challenge. US strategic bombers hit smaller stationary ships (of course it helps to drop sixteen bombs...).

Anyone know from a source how many of these AP sluggos hit their targets?

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 129
- 5/30/2003 10:17:22 AM   
Chiteng

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mdiehl
[B]Define "well." IRC reading (I think it was in one of these threads so its about as asuthoritative as nothing) that the only B5N AP bomb that hit a target was the one that accidently hit Arizona. Hitting a parked BB is not exactly a skills challenge. US strategic bombers hit smaller stationary ships (of course it helps to drop sixteen bombs...).

Anyone know from a source how many of these AP sluggos hit their targets? [/B][/QUOTE]

Now he is shifting back to Ships.....the discussion
was about bomb payloads vs the port?

The Kate existed in numbers. They didnt practice at hitting dock features. But they easily could have.

Plus Mdeihl your ignoring the opinions of several people one of whom is an engineer, that it WOULD be possible to substantively
damage a harbor. So stop pretending you are facing merely
me. That makes you look dishonest.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

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Post #: 130
Dry docks - 5/30/2003 11:09:03 AM   
mogami


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Hi, I know the Japanese could have hit the dry docks. They bombed ships in them. They even sank at least one floating dry dock. The Japanese used a much shallower dive then the US. (making them more accurate but also easier to shoot down. (Japanese used a 55 degree dive USA used a 70 degree.
The Kate level bombers destroyed or damaged around 300 aircraft and did serious damage.

The Pennsylvania Flagship of the Pacific Fleet and one of the raiders' priority targets, was "high and dry" in Drydock # One with destroyers Cassin and Downes. One bomb hit Pennsylvania amidships, killing eighteen crewmembers and producing modest damage to the battleship. Other bombs, hitting on and near the two destroyers, opened their fuel tanks and set intense fires. Ammunition explosions, including the detonation of a torpedo on Downes, added to the destruction, which was compounded when the drydock was partially flooded. Cassin then lifted off her blocks and rolled over against Downes.

Dive bombers from the second wave also struck the destroyer Shaw, which was in the floating drydock YFD-2. The resulting fires spread to Shaw's forward magazines, which blew up spectacularly, severing her bow. However, the rest of the ship remained afloat as the drydock sank beneath her. The little tug Sotoyomo, also in YFD-2, was badly burned by Shaw's fires and went down, too.

(Now days all ships must off load fuel and ammo before entering drydock)

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Post #: 131
- 5/30/2003 11:16:11 AM   
Nikademus


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mdiehl

Define "well." IRC reading (I think it was in one of these threads so its about as asuthoritative as nothing) that the only B5N AP bomb that hit a target was the one that accidently hit Arizona. Hitting a parked BB is not exactly a skills challenge. US strategic bombers hit smaller stationary ships (of course it helps to drop sixteen bombs...).

Your free to carry that opinion of course. I dont know what smaller ships you refer too, however i do know that "strategic bombers" benefited from dropping considerably more than one single bomb per plane.

quote:



Anyone know from a source how many of these AP sluggos hit their targets? [/B][/QUOTE]

Arizona was struck by four 800kg. 2 more were close near misses, 2 more struck the Vestal....moored alongside with an additional near miss on Vestal

Obviously, 1 of the 4 hits blew up the old battleship, hence the term "well" :) 1 bomb for nearly every 4 dropped being a hit from 10000 feet is pretty good in my book. More so when adding the Vestal, had a BB been in place of her.

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Post #: 132
- 5/30/2003 2:43:34 PM   
madflava13


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mdiehl,
I'm rusty, but IIRC, the Kate level bombers did quite well on PH targets. I've gotta dig up some old books, but that was my understanding.
Granted they trained exclusively for this attack, and I could still be wrong... But let me have a couple days to hit the books again.

As an aside - Anyone who can get to the U.S.S. Arizona memorial, I urge you to do so. There's a video you watch before heading to the actual memorial - it shows that Kate-dropped bomb which hit the magazine... It's a sobering experience. The first time I saw it, I looked around the theater and realized I was the only one who recognized that 2,000 US sailors died during that footage. There aren't words to describe that...

_____________________________

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Post #: 133
Drydocks - 5/30/2003 7:54:16 PM   
LTCMTS

 

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1. Drydocks are entered and exited through flood gates.

2. Flood gates are made of wood or metal.

3. Wood or metal will bend, splinter, deform and collapse under excessive pressure.

4. There is water outside the gate in a drydock, even when the side with the ship on the blocks is dry.

5. Sufficiently powerful bombs dropped alongside the drydock gates in the water will create blast overpressure in the water.

6. The blast overpressure will splinter, deform, damage or destroy the gates. Or it will damage the hinging, locking or swinging mechanisms for the gates.

7. In any case, the drydock is now unusable until repaired.

8. This is not the same as destroying the drydock itself as was done at St. Nazaire, but it will prevent the repair of underwater damage to warships for several months as parts are sent out from CONUS and the drydock repaired.

9. Again, there are a number of maintenance shops, for torpedoes, engines, turret and FC that could be profitably destroyed at a port. All such losses would have delayed repairs to warships in Pearl Harbor until replaced.

10. The ability of the IJN to attack surface land targets from the air was suitably demonstrated by the "leveling" of Darwin by the Kido Butai in 1942.

11. The reason I stopped posting here is that you people, not just mdiehl, but, unfortunately, him mostly, cannot execute a civil exchange of opinions and information w/o making it personal. None of you would have survived your first AAR at the NTC.

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Post #: 134
Re: Drydocks - 5/30/2003 8:27:38 PM   
byron13


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by LTCMTS
[B]The reason I stopped posting here is that you people, not just mdiehl, but, unfortunately, him mostly, cannot execute a civil exchange of opinions and information w/o making it personal. None of you would have survived your first AAR at the NTC. [/B][/QUOTE]


Aah, we're young yet. We'll grow up sometime. I hope you don't stop posting, LTCMTS, as your insight and clarity are most welcome. Frankly, you're the only poster I've seen that has the style and perspicacity to match wits with mdiehl, and we need that balance too.

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Post #: 135
- 5/30/2003 10:28:53 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Stanley Weintraub (A Long Day's Journey into War) mentioned that the IJN recon reported heavy clouds at 1500m. How does that square with level bombing attacks from 10,000 feet? Can anyone confirm the 10k feet altitude for the Kate attacks?

[QUOTE]
1. Drydocks are entered and exited through flood gates.

2. Flood gates are made of wood or metal.

3. Wood or metal will bend, splinter, deform and collapse under excessive pressure.

4. There is water outside the gate in a drydock, even when the side with the ship on the blocks is dry.

5. Sufficiently powerful bombs dropped alongside the drydock gates in the water will create blast overpressure in the water.

6. The blast overpressure will splinter, deform, damage or destroy the gates. Or it will damage the hinging, locking or swinging mechanisms for the gates.

7. In any case, the drydock is now unusable until repaired.

8. This is not the same as destroying the drydock itself as was done at St. Nazaire, but it will prevent the repair of underwater damage to warships for several months as parts are sent out from CONUS and the drydock repaired.

9. Again, there are a number of maintenance shops, for torpedoes, engines, turret and FC that could be profitably destroyed at a port. All such losses would have delayed repairs to warships in Pearl Harbor until replaced.

10. The ability of the IJN to attack surface land targets from the air was suitably demonstrated by the "leveling" of Darwin by the Kido Butai in 1942.

11. The reason I stopped posting here is that you people, not just mdiehl, but, unfortunately, him mostly, cannot execute a civil exchange of opinions and information w/o making it personal. None of you would have survived your first AAR at the NTC. [/QUOTE]

Points 1-5 agreed to without objection. Point 6 is an overclaim. It depends on how robust the gates and how big the bomb. It also depends on whether the gate is opened or closed. The blast overpressure may result in no damage whatsoever. Point 7 assumes that significant damage has occurred. If so, then the drydock is undoubtedly "not usable until repaired."

Point 8 is pure speculation. If you are talking about several months repair you seem to be assuming that the damage is so severe that the entire gate, hinging & closing mechanisms need to be replaced. OTOH, if the damage is minor it might be fixxed in 48 hours. Even if complete replacement of the gate is required, the "several months" part of your conjecture is purely speculative. It might take only the amount of time required to ship one from the states.

Point 9 is, well, awkward. No one has disputed the theoretical ability for a perfect convergence of pilot, plane, the right weapon system, Luke Skywalker, the Death Star and an Exhaust Port to all align favorably at just the right second. But how likely is it that the Japanese could destory any of these harder targets? You can do LOTS of damage to buildings. These, however, are relatively easy to replace. The critical stuff (machine tools in particular are the heart of "machine shops") is VERY difficult to damage. Kido Butai never inlicted on ANY facility the density of bomb hits delivered by B17s in, for example, Regansburg, and machine tools survived these raids pretty well. Other critical pieces of equipment require substantial explosives that could not be carred by the Val. The Kate seems to have the payload to carry a big weapon, but for the concussive effects you'd need a sequence of Kates each with one big bomb picking on one and only one target. Repeat as often as you can. Note that at the time, Kates used "pattern bombing." Basically, they endeavored to accomplish with 27 Kates what the USAAF could attempt to accomplish with 8 B17s.

Point 10. The buildings and facilities were minimal and the damage was largely structural. There was modest impairment of the port to function as a port because of pier damage, no long-term impairment of the airfields. The worst damage was on ships, a couple of giv't bldgs, and an airplane hanger.

[QUOTE]19 Feb 1942 - Raids No. 1 & 2.
243 killed, 350 wounded.
Two ships set on fire, one blown up damaging the pier. Six ships sunk and seven more damaged; three Catalina aircraft destroyed and two US vessels destroyed. Post and Telegraph offices destroyed, Police Station, Barracks, Cable Office, and Government offices destroyed and hospital damaged. RAAF hospital, recreation hall, equipment store, many houses and living quarters destroyed.[/QUOTE]

from http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-battles/ww2/darwin.htm

With respect to infrastructure damage, the Commission of Inquiry's report (see http://home.st.net.au/~pdunn/darwin02.htm) indicates that most of the damage to Darwin's piers was cause by the explosion of a ship ([I]Neptuna[/I])at the pier that was carrying a partial cargo of munitions, rather than by bomb hits.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 136
IF YOU REALLY WANTED..... - 5/31/2003 12:49:10 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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....to take out a dry dock gate, why worry about bomb
accuracy? Why not just have a couple of Kates TORPEDO
the blasted things? On the other hand, You don't have to
immediately be able to repair the gates to use the dock.
Earlier dry docks were often sealed with nothing but rock
and soil and such..., which could be dredged out in a couple
days when the repairs were complete. It would work as
a stop-gap until gate repair could be made.

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Post #: 137
- 5/31/2003 12:54:05 AM   
mdiehl

 

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That's the best solution for this problem that I've heard. Thanks Mike.

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Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 138
Machine tools - 5/31/2003 1:01:22 AM   
mogami


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Hi, Even if the machine tool is not destroyed it needs repair. (the wiring and power cords melt and need to be fixed. Not a major job but still the machine is not simply dug out of the rubble and put back into use on the street. If some of us are exaggerating the damage others are trivializing it.

Before anyone can put the machine shops back in order they have to contend with other damage. (while the ships are still burning and wounded men are laying around no one is going to worry about digging machine tools out. )

I don't think anything will be done within 48 hours. Repair has to move in a certain path. Before you can start repairing items you first have to get your repair apparatus back up and running.
(Tools sheds and power supply)
The game is too large a scale to detail what has been damaged. All we can go by is percent of capability damaged and how long it takes to repair. Remember in my two practice strikes not 1 point of port facilities was destroyed.

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Post #: 139
Re: Drydocks - 5/31/2003 4:34:35 AM   
Chiteng

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by LTCMTS
[B]1. Drydocks are entered and exited through flood gates.

2. Flood gates are made of wood or metal.

3. Wood or metal will bend, splinter, deform and collapse under excessive pressure.

4. There is water outside the gate in a drydock, even when the side with the ship on the blocks is dry.

5. Sufficiently powerful bombs dropped alongside the drydock gates in the water will create blast overpressure in the water.

6. The blast overpressure will splinter, deform, damage or destroy the gates. Or it will damage the hinging, locking or swinging mechanisms for the gates.

7. In any case, the drydock is now unusable until repaired.

8. This is not the same as destroying the drydock itself as was done at St. Nazaire, but it will prevent the repair of underwater damage to warships for several months as parts are sent out from CONUS and the drydock repaired.

9. Again, there are a number of maintenance shops, for torpedoes, engines, turret and FC that could be profitably destroyed at a port. All such losses would have delayed repairs to warships in Pearl Harbor until replaced.

10. The ability of the IJN to attack surface land targets from the air was suitably demonstrated by the "leveling" of Darwin by the Kido Butai in 1942.

11. The reason I stopped posting here is that you people, not just mdiehl, but, unfortunately, him mostly, cannot execute a civil exchange of opinions and information w/o making it personal. None of you would have survived your first AAR at the NTC. [/B][/QUOTE]

I dont call people names, and I dont resort to personal attacks.
Do not include me in your scolding.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Chiteng)
Post #: 140
Re: Re: Drydocks - 5/31/2003 4:35:47 AM   
Chiteng

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by byron13
[B]Aah, we're young yet. We'll grow up sometime. I hope you don't stop posting, LTCMTS, as your insight and clarity are most welcome. Frankly, you're the only poster I've seen that has the style and perspicacity to match wits with mdiehl, and we need that balance too. [/B][/QUOTE]

Speak for yourself =)
I contradict him all the time. =)

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Chiteng)
Post #: 141
- 5/31/2003 4:38:01 AM   
Chiteng

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mdiehl
[B]Stanley Weintraub (A Long Day's Journey into War) mentioned that the IJN recon reported heavy clouds at 1500m. How does that square with level bombing attacks from 10,000 feet? Can anyone confirm the 10k feet altitude for the Kate attacks?



Points 1-5 agreed to without objection. Point 6 is an overclaim. It depends on how robust the gates and how big the bomb. It also depends on whether the gate is opened or closed. The blast overpressure may result in no damage whatsoever. Point 7 assumes that significant damage has occurred. If so, then the drydock is undoubtedly "not usable until repaired."

Point 8 is pure speculation. If you are talking about several months repair you seem to be assuming that the damage is so severe that the entire gate, hinging & closing mechanisms need to be replaced. OTOH, if the damage is minor it might be fixxed in 48 hours. Even if complete replacement of the gate is required, the "several months" part of your conjecture is purely speculative. It might take only the amount of time required to ship one from the states.

Point 9 is, well, awkward. No one has disputed the theoretical ability for a perfect convergence of pilot, plane, the right weapon system, Luke Skywalker, the Death Star and an Exhaust Port to all align favorably at just the right second. But how likely is it that the Japanese could destory any of these harder targets? You can do LOTS of damage to buildings. These, however, are relatively easy to replace. The critical stuff (machine tools in particular are the heart of "machine shops") is VERY difficult to damage. Kido Butai never inlicted on ANY facility the density of bomb hits delivered by B17s in, for example, Regansburg, and machine tools survived these raids pretty well. Other critical pieces of equipment require substantial explosives that could not be carred by the Val. The Kate seems to have the payload to carry a big weapon, but for the concussive effects you'd need a sequence of Kates each with one big bomb picking on one and only one target. Repeat as often as you can. Note that at the time, Kates used "pattern bombing." Basically, they endeavored to accomplish with 27 Kates what the USAAF could attempt to accomplish with 8 B17s.

Point 10. The buildings and facilities were minimal and the damage was largely structural. There was modest impairment of the port to function as a port because of pier damage, no long-term impairment of the airfields. The worst damage was on ships, a couple of giv't bldgs, and an airplane hanger.



from http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-battles/ww2/darwin.htm

With respect to infrastructure damage, the Commission of Inquiry's report (see http://home.st.net.au/~pdunn/darwin02.htm) indicates that most of the damage to Darwin's piers was cause by the explosion of a ship ([I]Neptuna[/I])at the pier that was carrying a partial cargo of munitions, rather than by bomb hits. [/B][/QUOTE]

All I see is Mdeihl's continued attempt to prevent a viable alternative to simply smacking the BB at Pearl Harbor.

_____________________________

“It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.”

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Chiteng)
Post #: 142
PH - 5/31/2003 5:18:49 AM   
mogami


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chiteng
[B]All I see is Mdeihl's continued attempt to prevent a viable alternative to simply smacking the BB at Pearl Harbor. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, Well even though I've bombed the repair facilities in the game I'd always bomb the BB. (VP)(The VP are forever the damage to the port will repair.) Unless the port attack can somehow aid in gaining VP in excess of the BB there is no point.

In real life terms if you don't sink the BB and damage a lot of ships the PH repair factors will not be doing anything that their not being operantional will effect. This means the Japanese have to make at least two strikes.

On day one the IJN will lose between 30-45 aircraft.
On day two they will lose between 45-60.

So while they can knock out the PH repair (and damage a lot of ships) They will also knock out their carrier airgroups.

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Post #: 143
- 5/31/2003 5:29:05 AM   
mdiehl

 

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[QUOTE]Hi, Even if the machine tool is not destroyed it needs repair. (the wiring and power cords melt and need to be fixed. Not a major job but still the machine is not simply dug out of the rubble and put back into use on the street. If some of us are exaggerating the damage others are trivializing it.[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone has trivialized the damage, Mogami. Bear in mind that there seem to be many people who think that a successful third or fourth wave would (depending on the speculative target du jour) shut down PH for up to a year. I don't think KB had a ghost of a chance, obviously. In pursuing these detailed discussions of which target exactly (machine tools, oil tank farms. dry docks, stores, shipyard equipment) I think we hit upon the way to figure out how much the KB can achieve and how much effort is required to achieve that purpose, given the historic a/c and their available loadouts.

If the game posited that an [B]unusually[/B] effective and largely unopposed 3rd and 4th wave (opposed only by flak) made it very difficult to conduct major operations out of Pearl Harbor for one month (basically, all the ships entering and leaving the port are moving in troops, supplies, and stuff to rebuild the infrastructure, and the BBs have to sit on the bottom or become barely seaworthy to risk returning to the West Coast), and limited operations (a couple CVs and their DD and CA escorts) for another month, it would be "in the ballpark" IMO.

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Post #: 144
Game limits - 5/31/2003 5:42:15 AM   
mogami


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Hi, We have to remember what WITP is. It is not a grand tactical system. It is an operational system.
In a tactical game the IJN CV airgroups would be flying non stop shuttle missions from zero dark thirty till sun down (In the pound Pearl Harbor strike revision)
While this is certainly what I would do if I was trying to execute this strategy WITP cannot
accommodate it. (You get one port attack per day)

While not discounting the validity of pounding Pearl Harbor I understand it is not feasible given the present system. (And I do not think it would be "War Altering" (It might result in the additional loss of a few ships but it does no harm as far as preventing any allied action.
(The USN is not going any where) By the time a ship damaged at another location reaches PH the base will be up and running) (This reflects the operational level of the game.)

The main point is simply. Can the IJN alter the strike on PH (by switching targets or by making additional attacks) in a manner that impacts the USN's ability to conduct the operations they would/will be conducting without such a strike?

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Post #: 145
- 5/31/2003 9:19:14 AM   
Chiteng

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mdiehl
[B]I don't think anyone has trivialized the damage, Mogami. Bear in mind that there seem to be many people who think that a successful third or fourth wave would (depending on the speculative target du jour) shut down PH for up to a year. I don't think KB had a ghost of a chance, obviously. In pursuing these detailed discussions of which target exactly (machine tools, oil tank farms. dry docks, stores, shipyard equipment) I think we hit upon the way to figure out how much the KB can achieve and how much effort is required to achieve that purpose, given the historic a/c and their available loadouts.

If the game posited that an [B]unusually[/B] effective and largely unopposed 3rd and 4th wave (opposed only by flak) made it very difficult to conduct major operations out of Pearl Harbor for one month (basically, all the ships entering and leaving the port are moving in troops, supplies, and stuff to rebuild the infrastructure, and the BBs have to sit on the bottom or become barely seaworthy to risk returning to the West Coast), and limited operations (a couple CVs and their DD and CA escorts) for another month, it would be "in the ballpark" IMO. [/B][/QUOTE]

I certainly have never said 'up to a year' nor have I seen anyone else say that. Mdeihl is now exagerating to the point of absurdity.
I think the maximum possibly damge would be no longer than the time it would take to build a NEW Pearl Harbor.
That would not be a year.

Has ANYONE seen it take a year to build a 9/9 port? in UV?

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Post #: 146
- 5/31/2003 10:40:39 PM   
Mr.Frag


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Would it not simply be an easier solution then getting stuck on the PH issue to do what was done in UV?

A pre/post PH version of the scenario like UV's pre/post Midway

Those who want to have a *3rd/4th* strike scenario can simply load the post PH version, and add agreed to damage to the base and assets while damaging/removing a set number of strike aircraft from Japan's CV fleet.

Seems the only way to put this one to bed without getting stuck forever trying to code something that obviously will have too many possible outcomes.

Very difficult to deal with what is obviously a unique situation at a code level similarly to how UV can't deal with Midway with multiple air strikes per turn at different targets. The game engine supports 2 phases of air combat, it does not offer different target selection per phase. We would need this to be sliced into 4 air phases with the ability to set target priorities for each phase to be able to deal with these *one of* type scenarios and even then, they would probably only cause people to overuse this new ability resulting in massive depletion of CV air groups, since they now could kick out 4 missions a turn.

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Post #: 147
- 6/2/2003 5:28:48 AM   
Mike_B20

 

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I haven't read the whole thread but I see people are talking about third and fourth strikes on PH.

One of the main reasons the Japs withdrew from PH without sending in extra strikes is they didn't know of the whereabouts of the US carriers and were afraid of a Midway scenario.
Obviously, the feasibility of sending extra strikes against PH is gained by the benefit of 100% intelligence of the exact locations and possible manouevres of the US carriers.

If IJN wants the option of sending extra strikes against PH it should be a scenario with random starting positions for US carriers.
There should also exist the possibility of ambushing the IJN fleet exactly like Midway, in the process of recovering, refueling and rearming their aircaft.

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Post #: 148
USN CV - 6/2/2003 5:32:53 AM   
mogami


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike_B20
[B]I haven't read the whole thread but I see people are talking about third and fourth strikes on PH.

One of the main reasons the Japs withdrew from PH without sending in extra strikes is they didn't know of the whereabouts of the US carriers and were afraid of a Midway scenario.
Obviously, the feasibility of sending extra strikes against PH is gained by the benefit of 100% intelligence of the exact locations and possible manouevres of the US carriers.

If IJN wants the option of sending extra strikes against PH it should be a scenario with random starting positions for US carriers.
There should also exist the possibility of ambushing the IJN fleet exactly like Midway, in the process of recovering, refueling and rearming their aircaft. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, You should read the whole thread. If the USN CV were ever to get in range of the IJN CV it would not be Midway (but it might prevent Midway from occuring. There are 6 IJN CV. There are two USN CV in 2 TF both USN CV have undersize air groups. The good news is both USN CV are out of range and need 2-3 days to get to PH.

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Post #: 149
- 6/2/2003 5:40:56 AM   
Mike_B20

 

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Yes, but if most of the IJN aircraft are pounding PH the odds would be somewhat more level. Also, the Japs didn't know the location of the third carrier did they?
You are making the decisions based on 100% intelligence of the US carriers..their positions, air wing strengths, pilots morale, experience etc.
If the IJN made extra sorties the US would have 100% knowledge of the IJN TF location and could perhaps achieve exactly the same Midway scenario, even with only 2 carriers, if they timed it right.

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Post #: 150
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