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Disappearing units? - 2/7/2017 12:20:58 AM   
ChuckBerger

 

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Currently playing as the Russians, PvP email game.

I withdrew some of 9th Army into Odessa early on, and on turn 10 had a major garrison, 3 infantry and 1 tank divisions, and 9th Army HQ in Odessa. They were doing a splendid job, having wrecked several attacks on the city.

Start of turn 11, two of my infantry divisions in Odessa were no longer there! They just disappeared, they aren't anywhere else on the map. I certainly didn't disband them to become partisans (And even if I had, it should only be one per turn.) They were nearly full strength and in supply. There was no combat in Odessa that turn.

Most frustrating! Fortress Odessa is now something less than impregnable. Any ideas what might have happened? I have the relevant save game files, showing 3 infantry divisions in Odessa at the start of turn 10, and only one at the start of turn 11.

Thanks!
Chuck
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RE: Disappearing units? - 2/7/2017 7:47:04 PM   
lancer

 

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Hi Chuck,

There's a mechanic in place where cut-off Soviet units will have a random chance of surrendering each turn (once an 'isolation' timer counts down). I can't recall off-hand whether the cut-off check is purely rail based or takes into account special situations like Odessa.

Can you have a look at the Soviet Southern Region daily log for turn 11 and see if there are any relevant messages?

Cheers,
Cameron

(in reply to ChuckBerger)
Post #: 2
RE: Disappearing units? - 2/7/2017 9:04:29 PM   
ChuckBerger

 

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I see. I'll have a look at the log and get back to you. Obviously this shouldn't be happening at Odessa or Sevastopol! And maybe not at Tallinn either, if the Russian decides to make that a fortress. Riga, maybe....

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 3
RE: Disappearing units? - 2/7/2017 10:20:31 PM   
ChuckBerger

 

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Yep, log indicates these two fully supplied, nearly full strength divisions that were kicking some serious Romanian a** have indeed surrendered!

Cam, any chance of a quick fix here? Obviously this dynamic makes a "fortress Odessa" or "fortress anything" strategy untenable.

Come to think of it, not sure the surrender rule is needed at all. Russian forces that are truly cut off are easy to round up after 2-3 turns with minimal casualties. Whereas troops that are "cut off" but still fully supplied shouldn't be surrendering.

C

(in reply to ChuckBerger)
Post #: 4
RE: Disappearing units? - 2/7/2017 11:45:14 PM   
lancer

 

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Hi Chuck,

The surrender rule was introduced to slowly mop up Soviet cut-off units as most of them did, on the day, surrender once they ran out of ammunition.

Once units are cut-off a timer is activated and the surrender rule doesn't apply until it ticks down to zero. Even then there is a random roll needed to force a surrender.

Given that you're the first person to complain of this I suspect that you've been cursed by the God of Random Numbers or have some especially flaky commanders in Odessa. In general a fortress strategy in Sevastopol, Odessa or Riga is highly effective and the overwhelming number of comments to date have been centred around the difficulty of taking these as the Germans.

However you've got a valid point that units that are still in a reasonable state of supply shouldn't ever surrender as it's a fair assumption that they've still got ammunition.

I can tweak the code but a quick fix is outside of my control as it's Vic's DC engine that I'm using and he makes those decisions.

Cheers,
Cameron




(in reply to ChuckBerger)
Post #: 5
RE: Disappearing units? - 2/8/2017 8:34:37 PM   
ChuckBerger

 

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Well, my third veteran, fully supplied by sea, entrenched, well-led and victorious in battle division surrendered this turn. Now I've lost a whole corp of top-notch front line troops who could have held Odessa indefinitely. They just surrendered.

Bad dice I can handle. Bad rules are another matter! Vic, authorise a change, quick before my tank division and the major garrison surrender as well!

I've seen the complaints about how hard it is to take Odessa and Sevastopol. As well it should be. But I won't be following a fortress Odessa strategy again as the Russian, now that I know the defenders might just lay down their arms, no matter how well they are doing!

Cheers Cam & Vic - still loving the game!

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 6
RE: Disappearing units? - 2/9/2017 7:34:18 PM   
lancer

 

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Hi Chuck,

I'm having second thoughts about this.

If I change it so that no Soviet units ever surrenders in a cut-off, major coastal city then I can see this being turned into an exploit.

In a PBEM game the Soviet player could immediately march full strength regular units straight into Odessa and Riga while placing major garrisons in both. Now that the supply rules have been changed to facilitate this, even when the cities are cut-off, I can envisage that both cities could become formidable roadblocks to the Germans, beyond what is reasonable.

The Soviet AI also has a natural tendency to withdraw any nearby units into Riga and Odessa and can, at times, overpopulate them which would accentuate the problem.

I'm leaning more to a solution where surrenders will still occur in these situations but the chance of it happening would be halved. Major and minor garrisons would continue to remain immune from surrender.

Historically you could argue the case either way but from a gameplay perspective it's important to avoid unbalancing the game.

Cheers,
Cameron



< Message edited by lancer -- 2/9/2017 7:37:09 PM >

(in reply to ChuckBerger)
Post #: 7
RE: Disappearing units? - 2/11/2017 1:57:36 AM   
ChuckBerger

 

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I see your point, but...

Remember Odessa held out until mid-October, and even then the Axis didn't take the city, the Russians evacuated it to provide the troops for operations in the Crimea. Odessa should be really hard to take if the Russians decide to contest it. I think some Axis players seem to feel the game is somehow unbalanced if they don't take Odessa on the second attack in mid-July! In real life, the Russians pulled about 3 or 4 divisions into the fortress, plus the major garrison, and reinforced it by sea with the equivalent of another 2 divisions, perhaps.

How much to invest in the Odessa battle should be an interesting resource allocation choice for both players. For the Russians, a strong force of regulars in Odessa means fewer troops for the Dniepr, and the Russians don't have all that many regulars down south. If the Russian over-commits at Odessa, a good German player should screen the city (there's no reason you HAVE to have it!), and push further east against weak opposition. Or, mount a serious attempt with 11th army, with artillery, with Luftwaffe based at Nikolaev, with command focus, and with a good rotation set up. Most complaints about these cities are from players that haven't yet learned how to maximise an attack.

I have even less sympathy for complaints about Riga. The thing is right in the path of a friggin Panzergruppe! Often Riga can simply be smashed on turn 2-4 even if it does have a major garrison, because of the surprise penalties etc. And if it holds out longer, it can be attacked from 4 sides. A German player who can't take Riga just isn't doing it right.

And here again, there's no reason the German player actually needs Riga. It's a valid choice to bypass the city if the Soviets have over-invested in it, and move right along to Leningrad, leaving a few divisions to screen the place.

Ideally, supply by sea would only be available in the Black Sea and, arguably, Tallinn. The Germans had much greater ability to interdict in the Baltic, and in reality Riga could not be maintained indefinitely. But I think there are coding reasons for not differentiating between those sea areas?

Another thing that would help is a "sea transport" card, available to the Russians but with an escalating PP cost, which would allow troops to move between ports. This would allow evacuation of the 100,000+ troops that Russia did pull out of Odessa, just in time for Sevastopol siege part one.

The Russian player holding on to either Riga or Odessa fomany weeks or months is not unbalanced - it's what actually happened (at Odessa), and it comes at an opportunity cost to the Russian player of not having those troops available elsewhere. Again, as happened in real life.

Interesting comment on the Soviet AI, I haven't found this to be a problem. If anything, I find too often major cities are undergarrisoned, I often get Riga or Odessa for free against the AI.

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 8
RE: Disappearing units? - 2/11/2017 10:18:05 PM   
lancer

 

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Hi Chuck,

When you play against the AI what difficulty do you set it at ?

Cheers,
Cameron

(in reply to ChuckBerger)
Post #: 9
RE: Disappearing units? - 2/12/2017 12:23:51 AM   
ChuckBerger

 

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Depends on what I'm trying to do. Straight win is not much of a challenge anymore (as Germans) against anything but very hard or super hard. Still haven't got a clean super-hard win!

So I dream up my own goals and play accordingly. Currently playing a game against normal AI (slow) with tougher Soviets, where I'm trying to reach Baku...

I'd say I most often play against Hard AI (slow), with some additional goals set for myself, like winning with a certain casualty limit, or kill ratio, or extra cities captured, etc.

Of course PvP is the real game, but hard to find opponents sometimes.
C

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 10
RE: Disappearing units? - 2/12/2017 8:46:46 PM   
lancer

 

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Hi Chuck,

I think we can safely classify you as one of the more advanced players of the game.

I might have to go for a graduated solution here to cater for players of different capabilities.

PBEM should be O.K for a universal fix as they tend to self regulate with the choice of opponents but the single player experience will need some finessing

Leave it with me.

Cheers,
Cameron

(in reply to ChuckBerger)
Post #: 11
RE: Disappearing units? - 2/12/2017 10:08:02 PM   
ChuckBerger

 

Posts: 278
Joined: 8/10/2006
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You're the best, Cam

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 12
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