a few thoughts about mineclearing

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a few thoughts about mineclearing - 5/17/2001 4:55:00 AM

john g

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Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
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I have known about using heavy artillery to clear mines for most of a year now. Last weekend I decided to try it out to see just how effective it was. I started my tests with my A0, three fo's and 12 batteries of 150mm arty. With C&C on it rapidly got to the point that I could only call in 4 batteries a turn, though having all those available ment that I always had at least 4 available to call in. As for clearing mines, it did work, though with a starting level of 50 mines it took 7 turns of constant artillery bombardment to clear hexes of mines. Next I tried onboard 150mm guns, direct fire against the hexes themselves (z key). They too were able to clear mines and in a more controlled manner. Then I thought, if 150mm tubes clear mines how will smaller tubes do? Then I could have a way of clearing mines from bridge hexes without destroying the bridge. Next I tried 81mm mortars, sure enough they cleared mines as well. Then I got perverse, how about PZIIb with it's 20mm gun, and surprise, it too cleared mines though it took many shots to get each mine removal. The big surprise in all of this was the fact that when arty hit an undetected minefield and killed a mine, it became a known mine hex, even if I didn't have a spotter able to see the hex at the time. With the 81mm mortars, for less points than the 150mm offboard tubes I was able to clear lanes in the minefield in two turns, using about 60-70 rounds per hex to clear 50 mines. It never took more than 2 shots to detect the minefield. After seeing how fast 81mm mortars could clear mines, I tried leg engineers and minetanks against the same minefield. The leg engineers were able to clear up to 5 mines per turn each, while not being fired upon and the minetanks could get up to 3 per turn. Assuming average removal rates the engineers would need 8 squads acting together to clear that hex in two turns like the dozen 81mm tubes did, assuming that they can avoid being shot at as well. I then went the other way and tried sturmtigers firing on the minefield. They seemed to clear from 1 to 7 mines per shot, but only got 1 shot per turn and only cleared mines in the target hex, so they were reletively ineffective as mine clearing devices. Now from this a minefield detection and clearance tactic comes forth. With your med mortars walk a line of hits forward towards the enemy, when you detect mines spread it sideways and continue firing until the mines are cleared, by that time you should have gotten your troops there and can pass right through. The game "Grunt" from SPI covering tactical operations in Vietnam had recon by fire. You shot at a hex blind and saw what shot back. With even guns as small as 20mm detecting mines, you no longer have to fear blundering into a minefield, just keep shooting your path clear and stay on the cleared path. thanks, John.

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- 5/17/2001 6:03:00 AM

panda124c

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From: Houston, TX, USA
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John, the next question is, which method of clearing mines is most cost effective. What is the cost per mine to clear with different artillery and with the different engineering vehicals? :cool:

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- 5/17/2001 6:27:00 AM

john g

Posts: 984
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From: college station, tx usa
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quote:

Originally posted by pbear: John, the next question is, which method of clearing mines is most cost effective. What is the cost per mine to clear with different artillery and with the different engineering vehicals? :cool:

I deliberately didn't go into cost effectiveness, because it can be pushed to extremes, like the every tank a tiger, every infantry a FJ every artillery piece a Wurf. This is just to give another choice of weapons in the war on mines. Without running hours of sims I wouldn't be able to compare different weapons. 81mm mortars seem to remove 0 to 2 mines per hit, but I haven't even tried to graph it to see if it is a bell or decreasing curve. From gut feel I would guess bell curve so lots of 1 removals and less but fairly equal numbers of 0 and 2 removals. I am guessing that they use a bell curve since that is what I noticed when I graphed out spec ops arrival times where it was 4-13 turns with what looked like a 2 die 6 roll plus two with a 14 total meaning no arrival for my test. When everything is reduced to just numbers it takes some of the confusion and flying by the seat of your pants feeling from the game. Warfare shouldn't be reduced to a 1+1=2 if it is then you have chess all over again. All possible moves and all possible counter moves assigned a weight and the highest value total path is the one taken. thanks, John.

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- 5/17/2001 7:49:00 AM

Larry Holt

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Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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I assume you were using 5.x. Under 4.x only 105mm and above should be able to clear and this was the case. You report clearing with mortars and direct fire, that seems to be a bug not a feature. Clearing an unknown minefield with arty cause mines to explode and become exposed to it becomes spotted. That it becomes spotted without a LOS seems to be a limitation of the game. It is unrealistic.

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- 5/17/2001 7:56:00 AM

john g

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
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quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt: I assume you were using 5.x. Under 4.x only 105mm and above should be able to clear and this was the case. You report clearing with mortars and direct fire, that seems to be a bug not a feature. Clearing an unknown minefield with arty cause mines to explode and become exposed to it becomes spotted. That it becomes spotted without a LOS seems to be a limitation of the game. It is unrealistic.

This is with v4.3b. I had heard that it only worked with hvy arty, that is why I was experimenting. If someone with v4.5 or v5.x wants to try and see if med mortars still clear mines then I would be glad to hear about it. I never saw anything about mineclearing in any of the enhancement lists so I thought that it would still be the same now with v5.x as it was with v4.3b. thanks, John.

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- 5/17/2001 7:51:00 PM

jambo1

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Joined: 3/19/2001
From: Ottawa, Canada
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I don't think arty causing minefields to be spotted too unrealistic, because usually in an assault or attack mines and rough locations would be known or at least expected in certain locations. Int would certainly have their locations as a Priority in their collection plans. :)

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