Most important minor nations?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Most important minor nations?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> Most important minor nations?

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Most important minor nations? - 3/8/2017 12:57:50 AM

tog34

Posts: 21
Joined: 3/5/2017
Status: offline

What countries are the most important that you want to get for the Axis or allies? I've just bought the game and I've started a game as the Axis and I've managed to get Spain to join me in December 1940, which is awesome! I'm also trying to get Sweden into my alliance because I know they have a decent navy to help the Germans and their army can help the Fins hold their frontline. So what do you guys think?

Post #: 1

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/8/2017 2:52:29 AM

Leadwieght

Posts: 327
Joined: 2/23/2017
Status: offline

Hi Tog 34,

I've been playing obsessively since this game came out and here's my two cents:

Leaving aside Finland Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria, which will pretty much join the Axis unless you fail to conquer France (for H, R and B) or fail to make any progress towards Leningrad (in the case of Finland) I would say that the other Minors, in order of value to the Axis are:

1. Spain (biggish army, some naval potential and gives Germans access to attack Gibraltar)
2. Turkey (biggish army and Turkey joining the Axis opens up a new front vs. USSR--but Caucasus front will take a while to develop)
3. Yugoslavia (medium-sized army,)--but hard to get Yugo on the Axis side unless you take London or invest in diplo very early because of the pro-Allied coup event that will likely occur in Spring 1941
4. Sweden (medium sized army, useful naval units)

The rest are only useful in special cases, IMO.

Iraq may join the Axis and provide a nice supply of MPPs but is very hard to hold, unless you already hold Syria or have Turkey on your side, and thus can send reinforcements.
Norway has a joke of an army and a tiny navy and is not worth using diplo chits to swing it over to the Axis. If you haven't taken the "Conquer Norway" DE, then I'd ignore the country.
Portugal has a very small army, some bases in the southern Atlantic which might help in the U-boat war, but is also generally not worth using diplo on.
Persia is just about impossible to hold onto if you do get it on your side.
Greece has a medium-sized army and would be a nice addition to the Axis side, but has a high pro-Allied leaning that costs a lot to whittle away.

Some Minors are useful sources of trade and MPPS even if they aren't 100% on the Axis side. Check the Manual Part 3, 1.19

Have fun!

(in reply to tog34)

Post #: 2

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/8/2017 4:29:30 AM

tog34

Posts: 21
Joined: 3/5/2017
Status: offline

You'd think Sweden would be a better axis member than Yugoslavia mainly because it's cheaper to get and you get naval units plus a decent army. Turkey seems like you have to influence from the start but I could be wrong, I'll try to influence them after Sweden but I doubt they will be on my side, maybe around 1943 or late 42. Is there any point in putting influence into Hungary, Romania or Bulgaria? I feel like not because you know their going to join you regardless. Greece seems almost impossible and too risky to leave alive as the axis because of the 35% leaning to the allies.

I feel like Portugal should have a few naval units but idk their naval power in real life.

I'm pretty sure Norway had a decent navy and I think in game they only have one or two ships? could be wrong

Also another question, I've played a few games to try and take Poland in two turns and I've done it all the time. Is it hard to take Poland in two turns? It took me until august I think to defeat the French, is that bad?

(in reply to Leadwieght)

Post #: 3

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/8/2017 8:52:39 AM

vonik

Posts: 262
Joined: 4/8/2011
Status: offline

Actually no minor is worth the investment because by the time you get them to join, your army is already so strong (or so weak) that they don't bring anything useful and don't change the balance of power .
Even Spain joining around start 1941 (what needs much luck) doesn't change your strategical situation at all .
It may make your situation in Africa slightly better but your victory or defeat there depends only on the DAK and not on the Spanish .

As for Greece, I always let them live .
They won't join Allied before 1942 and by then I expect to have won in Africa what makes any british threat in Mediterranean irrelevant .
Fighting Greece just makes loose time for Barbarossa and it uselessly ties occupation forces .

After 1942 every diplomacy is too late because by then you have already basically either won or lost the war regardless whether you have some minors with or against you .

No it isn't hard to take Poland in 2 turns . You just need to get your Panzers in range of Warsaw then to pound it with all your bombers in turn 2 .
The trick is not to forget to have a unit with enough action points to move in when it's empty :)

Defeating France in beginning August is average but not really bad. July is quite good .
The key here is simply to start as soon as possible (march-april) .
Against human players it is paramount to beat France WHEN OR BEFORE Italy declares war because a "gamey" player knowing that he'll loose anyway can sacrify his fleet to wipe out your Italian navy with the help of UK .

< Message edited by vonik -- 3/8/2017 9:10:54 AM >

(in reply to tog34)

Post #: 4

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/8/2017 11:49:58 AM

Leadwieght

Posts: 327
Joined: 2/23/2017
Status: offline

Hi Tog 34Going by simple numbers, Sweden has a stronger military than Yugo.

I guess I rate Yugoslavia higher than Sweden because having Yugo go over to the Allies can really interfere with Barbarossa. Playing as the Allies against the AI, I have managed to seriously delay/diminish the AI's invasion of Russia by supporting the pro-Allied coup and sending British and CW troops to Yugo. This may not work so well vs. a human player, however.

Playing the Axis vs. the Allied AI, I guess the best thing to do if you don't want to get Yugo on your side using aggressive diplo is to invade it earlier than the Germans did IRL and just send a single spearhead to grab Belgrade rather then trying for a full overrun of the whole country. You'll need garrisons to stop partisans after you win and you'll never get as many MPPs out of a conquered Yugo as you would out of an Axis-aligned Yugo, but it's not the end of the world.

Re. Sweden, getting into the Axis is a nice bonus and fun to have different-colored flags on the map, but it's unlikely to join until rather late, unles you are very lucky with your diplo.

(in reply to vonik)

Post #: 5

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/8/2017 12:02:16 PM

The Land

Posts: 857
Joined: 2/19/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght

Hi Tog 34Going by simple numbers, Sweden has a stronger military than Yugo.

I guess I rate Yugoslavia higher than Sweden because having Yugo go over to the Allies can really interfere with Barbarossa. Playing as the Allies against the AI, I have managed to seriously delay/diminish the AI's invasion of Russia by supporting the pro-Allied coup and sending British and CW troops to Yugo. This may not work so well vs. a human player, however.

Oh - interesting! How much did you send and where id you put it? I've always found the Germans can take Belgrade pretty much before any British troops can get there. I've attempted to move into southern Yugo from Greece but that doesn't help me much as a) the supply situation is pretty dire and b) since I have fewer units than the Germans, I have little to gain from lengthening the front...

(in reply to Leadwieght)

Post #: 6

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/8/2017 12:10:14 PM

Leadwieght

Posts: 327
Joined: 2/23/2017
Status: offline

To Vonik's point about whether it's ever worthwhile to spend MPP's on diplo to sway Minors, I agree that if you rely ONLY on diplo spending to move a Minor to the Axis side, the spending is hard to justify. But there are DEs and scripts that move Minors in your direction. For instance, taking London (it's possible!) moves Turkey strongly towards the Axis. Or when France falls, Spain swings towards the Axis without the need to spend diplo

Apart from simple calculus of numbers of units, it's also important to think about the effect on the Allied strategic dispositions if the Axis gets a Minor on its side. That's why I rate Spain the highest: having all those ports really opens things up for the Kriegsmarine and taking Gib really interferes with the Allied effort in the Med. Likewise, getting Turkey on your side (provided it happens early enough) forces the USSR to devote significant resources to defending the Caucasus and the Black Sea coast. Even if the Turks make little headway towards Tblisi or Baku, Russia HAS to defend these fronts. On the other hand, Sweden going to the Axis usually doesn't have the same potential to dislocate Allied dispositions

(in reply to Leadwieght)

Post #: 7

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/8/2017 12:58:24 PM

vonik

Posts: 262
Joined: 4/8/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght

Apart from simple calculus of numbers of units, it's also important to think about the effect on the Allied strategic dispositions if the Axis gets a Minor on its side.
That's why I rate Spain the highest: having all those ports really opens things up for the Kriegsmarine and taking Gib really interferes with the Allied effort in the Med.
Likewise, getting Turkey on your side (provided it happens early enough) forces the USSR to devote significant resources to defending the Caucasus and the Black Sea coast.

Well my point was that the diplomacy in SC is really useless (e.g a waste of points) especially from the strategical point of view .

When Alexandria is taken what happens latest first half 42, Gibraltar becomes useless for both sides.
Besides I have never been bothered by the UK Navy in Mediterranean anyway. Yes the supply of the DAK is generally a problem in 41 but that's Malta and Spain changes nothing on that .

I also got Turkey once on my side as Axis (just for fun) but it didn't change a bit the balance of forces .
When the Wehrmacht is routinely destroying something like 5+ Soviet units per turn in average, having or not having some 10 (5 would be more than enough for defence only) Soviet units in the Caucasus makes things neither easier nor harder .

Spain could be handy for Axis in May 1940 and Turkey in june 1941 what unfortunately can't happen and any Minor that joins later than june 1941 makes no strategical difference .
For the Allied it is similar - it costs too much and takes too much time to get an interesting minor (aka Turkey and Spain) and when/if it happens the war is over anyway .
It may be done just for fun to see other flags on the map but otherwise it has only an anecdotical and negligible impact on a Campaign .
It is because SC really is a Blitzkrieg game - latest end 1941, often already in summer 41 you can tell with a 99,99 % probability who has won and who has lost regardless of what happens later .

(in reply to Leadwieght)

Post #: 8

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/8/2017 1:20:05 PM

tog34

Posts: 21
Joined: 3/5/2017
Status: offline

Yeah I can see your guys points, I mainly invested in diplomacy because I wanted to see if I could get these countries on my side if I tried hard enough and it seems like I could. I got Spain around Christmas 1940 which I think is pretty good, so their divisions can help move to the front with the USSR and will really help with the up coming war. I feel like I only spent possibly 300 or 350 points to get Spain on my side which I think is a good deal for the amount of units I got, not to mention now I get more income from their production centres. I went for Sweden because I thought it'd be cool to have them on my side and they have a decent navy to help me when I do turn on GB later on after the soviet union. I'm mainly playing for fun so I don't care too much if it isn't worth it to invest, if I lose because I did this then I don't care too much. It'll be fun to see my invasion of the USSR with all these different countries coming together.

Also if you get Turkey on your side it opens up a way into the black sea which might be good because you can now launch operation in that theatre. Is it possible to get Turkey early? How early? At least spain you have a 10% lead I think.

Also have you guys ever gotten Yugoslavia before the coup happens? or if the AI just doesn't do it for some reason? It seems like a no brainer for saying yes to that event as the allies.

How long will the war in the east last for? can I expect a hard and long fight? Maybe around 1944? Because I plan to invade GB after they surrender to the might of my panzers.

(in reply to vonik)

Post #: 9

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/8/2017 3:17:26 PM

YohanTM2

Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline

I think things will change in an interesting direction when PBEM becomes much more prevalent. Lot's more permutations. And with long range amphib closing the Med will be very important against humans so I think Spain will become more critical.

(in reply to tog34)

Post #: 10

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/8/2017 11:59:06 PM

Leadwieght

Posts: 327
Joined: 2/23/2017
Status: offline

Yugo will go Axis before the coup DE in Spring 41 if the Axis has taken London--not sure it's 100% certain, but it's happened whenever I manage to do a successful Sealion. Not sure if this script works the same way vs. a human player. Against the Allied AI, if you get Yugo and Spain on your side before launching Barbarossa at or near the historical date, an Axis victory is pretty much assured. I once managed to win as the Axis by Fall of 42 (but that was at Intermediate setting). In that case having Turkey join the Axis is just icing on the cake.

BUT Yohan is right, everything will shift when it's human vs. human.

(in reply to YohanTM2)

Post #: 11

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/9/2017 1:12:49 AM

FF_1079

Posts: 87
Joined: 12/26/2007
From: Bluffton, South Carolina
Status: offline

Spain for the ability to take Gibraltar and close down the med - plus you get Portugal for 1-2 turns of effort. Spain has a decent military that can be upgraded to near German quality - it's a no lose proposition.

_____________________________

Fondly remembers SSI's "Clash of Steel"

(in reply to Leadwieght)

Post #: 12

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/9/2017 5:08:09 AM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FF_1079

Spain for the ability to take Gibraltar and close down the med - plus you get Portugal for 1-2 turns of effort. Spain has a decent military that can be upgraded to near German quality - it's a no lose proposition.

warspite1

I know this is a strategic level game, but in terms of some degree of historical accuracy that is a real disappointment

The main positive for Germany in persuading Spain to come aboard is Gibraltar - and its difficult (if not impossible) to see how Gibraltar would have survived. However, there would have been a cost to Germany.

In this game the Germans have to spend points on diplomacy so perhaps that covers the cost to a degree, but there would have potentially been all sorts of problems with Vichy and Italy if the Spanish came in.

Okay, gloss over those issues for the sake of simplicity, but to also have a strong - 'near German quality' Spanish army? That is just too ahistorical. After 3-years of Civil War this country was understandably on its knees...

Someone mentioned above that they provide a small navy to the Axis cause too. Where does the oil come from to allow that?

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/9/2017 5:11:30 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to FF_1079)

Post #: 13

RE: Most important minor nations? - 3/9/2017 2:45:35 PM

BillRunacre

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I know this is a strategic level game, but in terms of some degree of historical accuracy that is a real disappointment

The main positive for Germany in persuading Spain to come aboard is Gibraltar - and its difficult (if not impossible) to see how Gibraltar would have survived. However, there would have been a cost to Germany.

In this game the Germans have to spend points on diplomacy so perhaps that covers the cost to a degree, but there would have potentially been all sorts of problems with Vichy and Italy if the Spanish came in.

Okay, gloss over those issues for the sake of simplicity, but to also have a strong - 'near German quality' Spanish army? That is just too ahistorical. After 3-years of Civil War this country was understandably on its knees...

Indeed. Their armed forces can be increased but the cost is not small as their upgrades cost 25% more than German ones, and Franco is not a highly rated HQ, having a base command rating of 4.

They do have a Light Tank unit, but like many Spanish units, it starts at half strength and is a weakling compared to German Panzer units. It also cannot be replaced if destroyed.

One problem with Spain is that if the armed forces are too weak then in my experience from previous games in this series, Axis players will just invade the country in 1940 and finish it off in no time. For that reason their units in Barcelona and Oviedo are at strength 8 so they can provide some resistance to an invader.

In terms of the navy, it may be that their two ships should be at lower strength, I'll look into that.

As to complications with Italy and Vichy, they are very difficult to replicate in game. The problem being that there are multiple routes through which Spain and Vichy could join the Axis, so what might work for one route won't necessarily work for the other.

For instance, the use of diplomacy to bring a country in isn't the same as if the Allies declare war on it, but we currently have no way in the engine to tell the scripts that diplomacy was used, i.e. to trigger different events from if the country was declared war upon.

_____________________________

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 14

Page: [1]

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> Most important minor nations?

Page: [1]