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RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 11/3/2017 5:45:42 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline 		IMHO, the North for the Germans need a few units running reserve mode behind the line ;-P Like one of the Motorized brigades. This could make the Soviets attack even more bloody and probably will stop them in their tracks every time it reacts from reserve ;-P Just my 2 cents. (a 50mp Brigade is going to react 3 to 4 times in a turn with a good leader, hint hint hint)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/3/2017 5:46:53 PM >

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(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 211
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 11/3/2017 5:56:53 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
The Axis lost 33 men in capturing Leningrad on week 13. We don't need to talk about victory conditions until silliness like these kinds of results are fixed.


OMG! M60 you are too kind calling this "silliness". I can think of a great deal of better words to say which are border line if not flat out obscenities. The causality rate given to the Germans is pure fantasy. I know what Chaos45 wrote about is true & it is true in this game and in the games I have been playing. This is beyond silliness.



on the other hand, the casualty rate of the red army 2.0 is too low. why?

because the recon is so good, that the red army player can choose his attacks wisely. in reality, the red army made attacks with horrific loses because of poor intel even in 44-45 (seelow hights for example).



It is how the game is coded and made to work here in 1.0. :(

I can say I have been extremly happy in 2.0 so far and that is the exent of what I can say. The game is a very steap learning curve and if you have not played WiTW I implore you to learn the system there since WITE 2.0 the mechanics are similar to WiTW. It will be time well spent learning so you can get into the game directly when it comes out.






< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/3/2017 6:01:22 PM >

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Post #: 212
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/6/2017 6:09:59 PM   
thedude357


Posts: 87
Joined: 10/13/2012
From: California
Status: offline 		Turn 14 Army Group South

Very low intensity turn with some contact in the Crimea and the closing of the Stalino pocket. 1st Panzer Group is positioning for better supply from the rails to perhaps take advantage of any opportunities in the next few turns. 11th Army pushes forward in the Crimea and is almost at the gates of Sevastopol, but some very tough level 4 forts remain in the way to get there. Some more German infantry divisions are committed to the Crimea. The Romanian 4th Army closes in on Ak-Manay to slow the fort building. 6th Army closes in on Voronezh, and 17th Army catches up to create a defensive line north of Rostov. Supply is starting to become an issue east of Stalino and halts any further advance past Rostov.





< Message edited by thedude357 -- 12/6/2017 6:13:32 PM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 213
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/7/2017 12:26:00 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 14 24-September-1941 Air War AKA SparkleyTit's Dishonourable Carnage Report

Soviet air activity during their last action phase consisted of ground bombing two hexes in the centre prior to some ground combat. Apart from this there was no other soviet air activity, including no ground support, no airfield bombing and no recon. During their last logistics phase there was no partisan supply. And during our action phase there was no interdiction or ground support - aerial interception was the sole mission.

Red air force dispositions continue to consist of a large number of empty airbases, although noticeably more aircraft seem to be back on the map. We can see the same three groups of airbases with aircraft as last turn. A northern one which, not being able to fly from anywhere more northernly, has retraced it steps and is now travelling east to Vologda in a long trail. The three airbases behind Moscow have travelled further back to Ivanovo - but leave a surprise new airbase of U2VS behind. The interceptors are still at Gorky. And this turn sees the return of the Red Air Force to the south of Moscow as a new group of two hexes of airbases with only interceptors appears near Stalingrad. Only the northern group and the Ivanovo group contain aircraft suitable for partisan supply. Only the group at Ivanovo with the new U2VS base can really affect the ground war.



[Many thanks to Crackaces and Stef78 for their recomendation of PicPick - far nicer graphics and not too difficult!]

Interceptors in the Ivanovo group continue to decline to defend their own airbases, so we continue to rack up large Soviet losses in unopposed daylight airfield bombing. The first appearance of the Pe-3 night fighter is an ignoble one of being annihilated on the ground in broad daylight. But targetting the U2VS last we literally run out of bomber air miles to do much damage there. And as the eastern most bases of the group are now in range of the interceptors at Gorky, they are at least defended by somebody. Nevertheless we leave all of the Soviet airgroups, bar the U2VS, with complements of low single figures.

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
That U-2VS airbase didn't get much in the way of Luftwaffe love this turn, so like an obstinate child, it will kick and scream (by bombing you) you until you do. You're going to do my job for me whether you want to or not.


Turning to the northern group our only real interest is in the airbase which can supply partisans. But to do the maximum damage we need to sweep fighter cover away. But the Northern group is strung out a long way to the east. Many fighters are destroyed at the western end, but continue to fly from the eastern end. The long distances are starting to tell. Even after a lot of time carefully placing airbases and airgroups, we are only able to bomb many of these airbase hexes just once. And at the eastern end our fighters are just too far away to have any impact. Hence we have to resort to something that so far has been unnecessary, unescorted night bombing of airfields. The damage done is enough to continue to ensure no partisan supply flights this turn again. But the Soviets manage to launch 42 fighters and down 9 of our bombers. Just as we operate against the red airforce at the longest distances ever so far in this game, the red air forces willingness to fight has returned and palpably its quality has improved. While airfield bombing is limited to airgroups that have used under 33% of their air miles, the distances involved in these last air missions leave many of our bomber groups with more than 50% of their miles used after their last airfield bombing mission. This turn there will be a lot less for our other missions.

Rather than leaving industry to last we have started to bomb the interceptor factories before using bomber groups for ground bombing/support. The last mission of the Luftwaffe's Ju88s and He111H-4s is to stop the expansion of the tank factory at Gorky. This succeeds as we get 1% damage, but with the best result for the Soviets in a night mission ever as we lose 16 bombers. Another clear sign of the red air force starting to improve. The combination of long distance missions means our Ju88s and He111H-4s have no more miles to give even to ground missions. But at the worst time for Gorky- we cannot add to the damage levels of the MiG-3 factories or bomb the airfields nearby. So there is no way to press down on the red air force there - in effect we leave their air groups enhanced by the relative victory they scored. Once Moscow is passed, Gorky will be in fighter range and it will be a different story!

The South is left almost entirely to the air forces of our minor allies. And with the reappearance of the Red Air force they have somebody to fight again. Presumably having come straight out of reserve they show some fight and actually defend their airfields. The Rumanians continue to demonstrate how much they have developed as a fighting force. But the Hungarian air force having come late to the party have not built up the same level of victories to add to their morale or experience - and it shows.



An honourable mention should be made for the Slovak air force. With no Red Air Force for many turns and the Red Army retreating ahead of ours leaving them with no combat, the Slovaks have had to content themselves with "spam bombing" whatever red army units they could. This has led mostly to disruption which presumably becomes mostly fatigue next turn. But their continuous use turn after turn in unopposed daylight ground bombing means they are actually building up respectable kill totals of their own. But they will be leaving soon.

In an unusual move last turn we actually downgraded all except one of the frontline Hungarian fighter airgroups to old biplane fighter bombers. At least now they can join in on the mass ground bombing every turn and will leave having had something to do.



Overall we see a return of the Red Air Force to the map and to form. Combined with the long distances they have withdrawn to in the rear we are starting to have a tougher time - we can no longer bomb every airfield with aircraft twice when we want to. Nevertheless losses creep up again, if only because there are more of them on the map to shoot at. Their losses of non-interceptor aircraft are moderate from not being there - we have done enough to prevent partisan supply for yet another turn and little support for the red army can be given from so far in the rear. But their interceptor losses remain high and many multiples of what they are producing overall - especially as they are now down to only 6 interceptor factories - and continues to be higher than production for each model. Unusually the problem for the Soviets is not going to be quality but quantity. By contrast our own fighter losses, even with our aggresive air offensives in clear weather, are comfortably below production.

Apart from interceptors though repair of Soviet industry is now gaining on the damage we inflict by bombing.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/2/2018 3:44:49 PM >

(in reply to thedude357)
Post #: 214
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/7/2017 2:09:43 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 14 24-September-1941 Economic War

This turn the advance of Axis forces meant the factories at Khimki, Makeevka and the immediate north east of Leningrad have been lost by the Soviet Union. Also two U2-VS factories evacuated WESTWARDS to Dubna were overun. Total Soviet indutrial losses are

99 Arms (4 Minsk, 3 Kirovgrad, 3 Krivoi Rog, 3 Odessa, 2 Kremenchug, 3 Nikolaev, 6 Dnepropetrovsk, 8 Poltava, 15 Kharkhov, 3 Kramatorskaya, 1 Mariupol, 29 Stalino, 3 Makeevka, 3 Gorlovka, 2 Taganrog, 8 Leningrad and environs, 3 Kalinin)
63 Hvy (4 Minsk, 3 Kirovgrad, 3 Krivoi Rog, 3 Odessa, 2 Kremenchug, 3 Nikolaev, 2 Dnepropetrovsk, 4 Kharkhov, 2 Kramatorskaya, 5 Stalino, 3 Makeevka, 3 Gorlovka, 2 Kaluga, 2 Tagnrog, 10 Leningrad and environs, 4 Rostov, 4 Voroshilovgrad, 4 Kalinin)
25 Vehicle (20 Kharkhov, 5 Stalino)
Su-2 (Kharkhov)
LaGG-3 "11 series" (Taganrog)
BA-10 Armd Car (Leningrad and environs)
Li-2 and Li-2W (Khimki)
U2-VS x 2 (Dubna evacuated from Kazan and Cheboksary)

Finally Moscow and West Moscow are in our zone of control meaning evacuating the Pe-2, 15 vehicle, Il-4, Pe-3, Pe-2R, U2-VS, Il-10, 9 arms and 9 heavy factories would cost double.

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Turn 13 17-September-1941 Economic War
with West Moscow now in our Zone of Control evacuating the Pe-2, 5 vehicle or 8 arms factories there would cost double the rail cap if this remains the case.

No, it did not remain the case.


With 3 divisions exerting control over Moscow and 3 more exerting control over West Moscow this time it might remain the case.

MiG-3 in Bitter End v1.10

The Red Air Force starts with 1,308 MiG-3s and has two MiG-3 factories in Moscow producing 36 each every turn until the end of the year. If left undistrubed they would produce a total of 2,016 more MiG-3s. The MiG-3 is the only Soviet dedicated fighter at the start, and by some margin its longest range interceptor. But on turn 14 the Soviets evacuted just 1 of each factory to Serov in the East. At 99% damage they will not even reach the 50% damage level at the end of the year that possibly could mean they would produce more. So their evacuation means the end of all MiG-3 production for certain. In the first 13 turns they had the capacity to produce 936 MiG-3s, but the damage caued by bombing means we would expect 121 were not produced. In a few turns the Soviet team will start to receive lend lease interceptors. But for the moment a major part of their weekly infusion of new interceptors has gone at a critical time for them.

Li-2 and Li-2W in Bitter End v1.10

While the Soviet side can produce many short range U-2 (transp) planes and has some out of production TB-3G-2 with its massive payload, the Li-2 will be the sole distance transport it will produce until the end of 1942. Using bombers as transports is not an easy substitute or without its costs. Soviet airgroups at the start or arriving have 47 Li-2s. After three turns the Li-2 factory at Khimki will expand to produce 9 a turn and continue until the end of the game. This means a total protential production of 2,010 if it is not evacuated. Before its destruction in turn 14 the factory had produced 111.

The Li-2W bomber variant seems to be little loved and is usually not prioritised for evacuations. Production woud have started in 1942 and lasted to the end of the war producing 585 of these bombers if undisturbed.

U2-VS

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Unfortunately two U2-VS factories were evacuated to Dubna - right in to the clutches of advancing Axis forces. I am sure when STAVKA faces the stern faces of EwaldvonKleist and Dinglir this will be explained as a "fat finger" mistake.

No, it wasn't a fat finger. I only did two because I didn't have enough railcap left. I'll send you the rest later.



I guess we better wait and see which other U2 factories will be coming our way first!

In addition only one each of Yak 7A and T-40 1941 were evacuated from the Moscow area.

Strategic Bombing

With the MiG-3 factories evacuated Soviet interceptor production has been slashed. With the Yak-1 factories still without fighter cover and with their expansion still halted at a low level, we decide to concentrate on racking up the largest damage levels possible there now before it does receive fighter cover, or weather cover! So for the first time the Rumanians do not participate -this is an all German affair - and damage levels go from 10%/9%/2% to 18%/21%/7%. At these levels even if there was no more damage we expect a Yak-1 factory to cease production at least three times and know they will not all recommence their expansion until turn 21.

Our shorter range Dornier bombers add a little to the damage levels at Rybinsk and Ivanovo. But we decide to leave the Moscow factories alone as presumably they will be damaged by their upcoming evacuations. Thus all our Ju87Bs and single engine fighter bombers are left completely fresh and exclusively for ground support/bombing during the ground commanders gos.

Our minor allies content themselves with just with bombing the Stalingrad tank factory before turning to bomb Kerch and Novorossisyk which remain without fighter cover.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/2/2018 3:54:54 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 215
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/7/2017 7:05:56 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 14 Allocations

For information only - allocations for turn 14

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/2/2018 5:50:47 PM >

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Post #: 216
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/11/2017 6:12:32 PM   
leverkuhn


Posts: 40
Joined: 12/11/2017
Status: offline 		Just signed up. New player absorbed by the game. Really enjoying this AAR.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 217
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/11/2017 7:00:24 PM   
821Bobo


Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
quote:



An honourable mention should be made for the Slovak air force. With no Red Air Force for many turns and the Red Army retreating ahead of ours leaving them with no combat, the Slovaks have had to content themselves with "spam bombing" whatever red army units they could. This has led mostly to disruption which presumably becomes mostly fatigue next turn. But their continuous use turn after turn in unopposed daylight ground bombing means they are actually building up respectable kill totals of their own. But they will be leaving soon.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1n_Re%C5%BE%C5%88%C3%A1k

(in reply to leverkuhn)
Post #: 218
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/12/2017 7:17:21 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Ironically in our game it will be more ace tactical bomber pilots than fighter pilots. With the Soviet air force spending turns only north of the no southern Axis move line, or staying in the rear, the Slovak fighters have not been able to find anyone to fight!

The Soviet team in the 2by3+ team game are looking for a new commander. It is a much lower commitment than going solo. A great way for a beginner to do their first game against others. And if you are an old hand come and show us your stuff. If you would like to join the team do post here or on any of the games other threads, or feel free to message Neogodhobo or myself.


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 12/13/2017 3:12:34 PM >

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 219
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/16/2017 3:09:47 PM   
thedude357


Posts: 87
Joined: 10/13/2012
From: California
Status: offline 		Army Group South Turn 15

The main action here is in the Crimea and in the vicinity of Voronezh. Summer is getting short and there is a last push to Sevastopol, however 2 Level 4 Forts and Sevastopol is level 5. This is going to take some serious cracking by LIV Corps and probably not going to happen before mud. Practically an unlimited amount of Heavy artillery and nebelwerfer regiments are committed and will do some serious damage to the Soviets and their fort levels. Definitely should have committed more forces to the Crimea, and if I could go back in time I would do that. The Romanians try to push towards Ak'Manay but that is not going to be broken without German forces attacking that position.

In the vicinity of Voronezh the Soviets are making several "probing" attacks, code for "get our morale up". With 1st Panzer Group long from the rails and low on fuel, a push to Voronezh before the mud comes is looking less and less likely. 6th Army are not going to get the job done in Voronezh before the mud.



< Message edited by thedude357 -- 12/16/2017 3:11:59 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 220
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/17/2017 12:39:02 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 15 01-October-1941 Centre

quote:

Stelteck
Moscow is isolated, still only the 7th panzer division guard it and so the soviet have a decent chance to free moscow one turn more. Worst case scenario we get moscow during the snow turns.


The jaws close around Moscow - but we fully expect them to be opened up again. Nevertheless we give the HQ of 7 panzer a new leader and stack it with support units to make its attack as painful as possible for our opponents.




quote:

Stelteck
Yes they really lack troops.
ANd the troops present did not have time to dig.

They needed 30 more divisions one month ago here
They probably should have scrapped other fronts. But difficult to do in multiplayer game


While it is true to some extent that playing a team side constrains you to a broad front strategy, I would contend that it does not necessarily prevent concentration of forces. By moving Centre's command boundaries with other commands towards the centre we have created our own concentration. The Soviet team equally could move their boundaries in a similar manner and may have done so. There is no reason that the Soviet South commander could not have their boundary with the West commander at the Oka. Or even at Moscow itself. However it would also mean every commander is involved in the battle for Moscow rather than strict demarcation of responsibilities. I believe with some imagination, but also some bureacracy and extra time, you could emulate anything you can do in a solo game within a team game.

It looks like almost everything is perfect, but ....



One setback as one of our airbases gets displaced during the go. More than 40 fighters, mostly Bf109E3s, get destroyed.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/2/2018 6:38:49 PM >

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Post #: 221
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/18/2017 12:28:43 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 15 01-October-1941 North

During the Soviet action there continue to be local counterattacks - in this turn seven against the broken down regiments of the 16th army along the Volkhov and near the boundary with Centre. As this is a repeat pattern we are assigning SUs at the end of the turn to the HQs of these areas specifically for this and the uptick in Soviet losses there may be a consequence of this.

[image]
[/image]

The remaining forces are overun at Leningrad - the area is now ours. The Finns quickly deploy south on to the Volkhov. 16th army remerges some broken down units and shifts its focus south. Meanwhile 4th Panzer group and lead assault units of the 18th army head for Kalinin and Torzhok.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/2/2018 6:43:51 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 222
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/19/2017 10:42:08 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 15 01-October-1941 Air War AKA SparkleyTit's Dishonourable Carnage Report

During their last logistics phase there was no partisan supply again. Soviet air activity during their last action phase consisted of no ground bombing or ground support, no recon, and just one airbase of ours bombed. And during our action phase there was no interdiction or ground support - aerial interception was the sole mission.



So after all the immense resources poured into aircraft development and production by both the Third Reich and the Soviet Union at the pinnacle of the clash for Moscow it all comes down to this - U-2VS versus Fi 156C!

At least there was a return to the map of more Soviet aircraft though - in the images below can be seen all the airgroups they have deployed with their numbers after all action.

North

Last turn saw airbases deployed in a long trail to Vologda. But this turn they retraced their steps to Cherepovets and concentrated there in four hexes. Two had just interceptors, and two had just level bombers only one of which had the very long distance models suitable for partisan supply.

The interceptor are dealt with by our fighters, leaving clear unopposed unescorted daylight bombing of all their airbases! Having moved west from Vologda they are even in range of our Ju86s and can all be bombed twice.

Interestingly though they have moved an empty airbase in the group forward towards the front for the first time. Is their Northern commander, Comrade SparkleyTits'in taking tips from his distant cousin and 2by3+ Axis Centre commander General von SparkleyTits?



Centre

In a repeat of last turn their interceptors in airbases near Ivanovo quickly get swept out by the intense dogfights over Moscow. But having got past Moscow we now have Gorky in sight. Their interceptors are also badly depleted in dogfights over the Ivanovo airbases. Once our reconnaisance finds no more interceptions are being flown we return to daylight unescorted bombing - including the LaGG-3 factories at Gorky and Dzerzhinsk. Again their night fighter group is reduced to low single figures without flying any missions. Given that their night fighter factory has just been surrounded and may be lost we may already have destroyed most of the airframes of this model. And their remaining bombers capable of partisan supply are left in a similar state.



Saratov and Stalingrad

Only interceptors are deployed south of Moscow in two hexes near Stalingrad and one at Engels. They are too far from the front to effect the ground war at all and so are probably there just to defend the industry. The four interceptor groups at Saratov start the turn with complements of only ten each which is very low. Even flying reconaisance we find their interceptors already being depleted just from chasing our recon. Our hunch is that these aircraft are in a very poor state and so we take a big risk of unescorted bombing in daylight which we know will be opposed. A large number of bombers could be destroyed, but if their interceptors cannot fly any more missions we have the prize of free bombing of their Yak-1 factories for yet another turn. Our hunch turns out to be right in a different way. Their interceptors actually manage to contest three of our bombing runs on their factories but only down eight of our bombers - so they lasted longer than we thought but are largely ineffective. The Saratov Yak-1 factory for instance reaches 35% damage.



The thirteen interceptor groups near Stalingrad are more resilient. They are left to the Rumanians (and one Hungarian air mission) who draw them in to dogfights with their fighters and night bomb their airbases. After this is complete reconnaisance confirms their interceptors are no longer flying so we can bomb the factories at Stalingrad unopposed in daylight.



Overall we find this turn our opponents airbases are back in effective range for our offensive against them. As we have advanced east, they have either remained still or headed west. Where they want to defend their industry this may be unavoidable. But if their air groups are conducting no other missions there is no reason otherwise to move their airgroups towards the front other than just to present themselves as a target or a decoy to our bombers.

Nevertheless at these distances our bombers are expending greater mileage attacking their air force. After bombing all but one of their airbase hexes and the interceptor factories there is little left for other strategic bombing. After the factories at Stalingrad we are only left with Kerch and Novorossisyk. Other general industry is now seeing its repair get ahead of our bombing damage.

Our southern allies though continue to use their shorter range bombers to "spam" ground bomb everything they can. But whether this is a good idea is now contested.

Our air losses look consideraby worse this turn - particularly at our key fighters number. But this is exagerated by the large number of old Bf109E3 fighters lost by displacing one of our airbases during our turn. Most bombers are still not being lost in aerial combat. And Soviet interceptor losses are well ahead of production in all categories this turn.



And finally a thoughtpiece from our opponents on the air war this turn

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Here's one way to use the German air force wisely. Spam so much recon that the Soviet fighter pilots, exhausted from chasing recon planes, can't get out of their bunks when the Heinkels show up to blast their airfield.



< Message edited by Telemecus -- 12/19/2017 11:10:00 AM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 223
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/19/2017 6:19:09 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 15 01-October-1941 Economic War

This turn the advance of Axis forces did not overun any more evacuatable factories.

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Turn 13 17-September-1941 Economic War
with West Moscow now in our Zone of Control evacuating the Pe-2, 5 vehicle or 8 arms factories there would cost double the rail cap if this remains the case.

No, it did not remain the case.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Turn 14 24-September-1941 Economic War
Finally Moscow and West Moscow are in our zone of control meaning evacuating the Pe-2, 15 vehicle, Il-4, Pe-3, Pe-2R, U2-VS, Il-10, 9 arms and 9 heavy factories would cost double. With 3 divisions exerting control over Moscow and 3 more exerting control over West Moscow this time it might remain the case.


This time it did remain the case! Only the Pe-2R and four arms factories were evacuated - plus all of North Moscow. We now have all of the Moscow area isolated. Even if the encirclement is broken they will still not have the rail links to evacuate any of this industry. If we assume this industry cannot be saved then total Soviet industrial losses are

104 Arms (4 Minsk, 3 Kirovgrad, 3 Krivoi Rog, 3 Odessa, 2 Kremenchug, 3 Nikolaev, 6 Dnepropetrovsk, 8 Poltava, 15 Kharkhov, 3 Kramatorskaya, 1 Mariupol, 29 Stalino, 3 Makeevka, 3 Gorlovka, 2 Taganrog, 8 Leningrad and environs, 3 Kalinin, 5 Moscow)
72 Hvy (4 Minsk, 3 Kirovgrad, 3 Krivoi Rog, 3 Odessa, 2 Kremenchug, 3 Nikolaev, 2 Dnepropetrovsk, 4 Kharkhov, 2 Kramatorskaya, 5 Stalino, 3 Makeevka, 3 Gorlovka, 2 Kaluga, 2 Tagnrog, 10 Leningrad and environs, 4 Rostov, 4 Voroshilovgrad, 4 Kalinin, 9 Moscow)
40 Vehicle (20 Kharkhov, 5 Stalino, 15 Moscow and West Moscow)
Su-2 (Kharkhov)
LaGG-3 "11 series" (Taganrog)
BA-10 Armd Car (Leningrad and environs)
Li-2 and Li-2W (Khimki)
U2-VS x 3 (Moscow, 2 x Dubna evacuated from Kazan and Cheboksary)
Pe-2 (West Moscow)
Il-4 (Moscow)
Pe-3 (Moscow)
Il-10 (Moscow)

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Unfortunately two U2-VS factories were evacuated to Dubna - right in to the clutches of advancing Axis forces. I am sure when STAVKA faces the stern faces of EwaldvonKleist and Dinglir this will be explained as a "fat finger" mistake.

No, it wasn't a fat finger. I only did two because I didn't have enough railcap left. I'll send you the rest later.


The U2-VS factory at Shumerlya remained unmoved as did all the other U2 factories meaning promise not kept - though it would be difficult with the tight rail cap this turn.

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RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/19/2017 6:20:17 PM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Turn 15 Allocations
For information only - allocations for turn 15

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RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/21/2017 3:33:21 PM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Turn 16 08-October-1941 Centre

When the turn comes back from the Soviet team the big surprise is no break in to Moscow. Only one panzer division held the cordon at the weakest point and was exposed to Soviet attack on three sides.



Giving the units direct HQ a better commander and lots of SUs at the end of last turn helped. As did a high level of ground support. We can see a lot of interdiction too which inevitably upsets the best laid plans. We will have to see from the Soviet side though why it was not possible to break back in to Moscow.

It is mud in the North European zone - and in as much as that makes any subsequent break out from or break in to Moscow even more difficult there is a silver lining. In spite of the mud we are even able to extend the cordon around Moscow.



The Soviet team in the 2by3+ team game are looking for a new commander. It is a much lower commitment than going solo. A great way for a beginner to do their first game against others. And if you are an old hand come and show us your stuff. If you would like to join the team do post on any of the games threads, or feel free to message Neogodhobo or myself.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 12/21/2017 3:34:34 PM >

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RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 12/22/2017 12:43:27 PM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Turn 16 08-October-1941 North

During the Soviet action there continue to be local counterattacks against 16th army - but with the Finns streaming south they have been mostly south of the no move line.




It is mud in the north Soviet zone. But at the lower Volkhov a number of units are just beyond the mud zone. These are heavily attacked by 18th army units now redeploying from the battles in Leningrad - and the Finns make the incursion deeper reaching for the first time the port of Kobona. Even some hexes in the mud zone are successfully attacked. The only guards unit we have seen so far is left on the wrong side of the Volkhov with a very awkward retreat.

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RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 1/7/2018 1:28:03 PM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Stelteck - need to clear you message box as we cannot message you. Olga has been sending you too many message again! Something important I sent by email instead!

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Post #: 228
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 2/14/2018 11:03:19 PM   
thedude357


Posts: 87
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From: California
Status: offline 		Turn 16 Army Group South

11th Army and Romanian allies push the issue to try and break the Soviet lines in the Crimea. No choice but a frontal attack with heavy losses as Soviet forces are dug in well and time is running out for good weather in 1941. A lack of prioritization for the Crimea rail line means supplies and replacements are slow in coming. However, massive amounts of heavy artillery and nebelwerfers are brought in to break the Soviet defenders. The Romanian commander for some reason decides not to commit artillery to the attack, and displays an incredibly poor performance as a result.

Further east towards Rostov 11th Army postures for an Army Group split.




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Post #: 229
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 2/15/2018 1:48:32 PM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Turn 16 08-October-1941 Air

You could be forgiven for thinking this turn was still turn 15 - for it is almost an exact replica.

During their last logistics phase there was no partisan supply again. Soviet air activity during their last action phase consisted of no recon or airbase attacks. The only ground bombing and support was in the attempted break in to Moscow - by contrast we had a few very big interdictions. And during our action phase there was no Soviet interdiction or ground support - aerial interception was the sole mission.

Nor it seems was there any discernable change in the disposition of their airbases and air groups. There continues to be a very large number of airbases which are empty. And the same clusters of airbases with aircraft can be identified far from the front often with the same number of airgroups and in the exact same location. One change that is noticeable is that biplane models of fighters are being deployed on the map in numbers again. They seem to be the only ones receiving replacements as airgroups with other models have very low complements.

A northern group of airbases west of Cherepovets contains a large number of interceptors. But again many of the airbases with aircraft are in swamp hexes from which they cannot fly. This includes all their aircraft that could supply partisans. The Finnish air force now has airbases along the Volkhov and can fly missions right down to their no move line (and beyond when the AI takes control!) They sweep away Soviet fighters until they no longer fly - leaving all their airbases to be bombed unopposed in unescorted daylight raids. This is left to the Finns - apart from one hex with a particularly large concentration of interceptors which the Luftwaffe bombs with some spectacular results even for unopposed day raids.



In the centre the interceptors in airbases near Ivanovo quickly get swept out by the intense dogfights over Moscow again. And their interceptors at Gorky get swept out by the dogfights over the Ivanovo airbases again. Again our reconnaisance finds no more interceptions are being flown. So again we bomb their airbases in daylight, unescorted and unopposed. The airbase at Dzerzhinsk is still not bombed as we need the two bombings in its hex for the factory. Again their night fighter group is reduced to low single figures without flying any missions. And again their remaining bombers capable of partisan supply are left in a similar state.

Our longest range bombers succeed again in choking the expansion of the tank factory at Gorky. But our attacks on the LaGG-3 factories are left till last this turn - meaning that the few bombes we had left in an exhausted state caused barely any damage even in unopposed daylight bombing. However our shorter range bombers are now able to join in on the industry bombing and augment damage levels at the Murom vehicle factory and the heavy industry of Ivanovo and Rybinsk. They also bomb the isolated units in Moscow - at the very least their anti-aircraft fire will further reduce their stock of supplies.

Mud means our tactical forces near the centre have a turn of R&R.



Again at Engels they have an airbase with just four interceptor airgroups - but with even lower complements than last turn. Some contain only single figures at the start of the turn. Our reconnaisance soon finds their pilots have decided to sit out the war this turn. As we are not bombing their airbases, we need the two bombings on the hex for the factory, we guess it is live and let live.

Concious that the impending bad weather could impede our strategic bombing in coming turns we concentrate on the Yak-1 factories near Saratov. They currently produce fewer interceptors than the factories at Gorky - but only because we have choked their expansion. Every turn that we can keep their factories with at least 1% damage is another turn they will not expand - each turn we succeed in this means at least another 44 Yak-1s will never be built. So instead of starting with the Yak-1 factories with the highest damage levels we start with the one with the lowest, Engels, in order to prolong the period when no Yak-1 factory will have any expansion. In fact we more than double it from 7% to 16% - meaning it will not be repaired and start expanding for another five turns. Damage levels on the other Yak-1 factories are further augmented and are in the thirties - meaning at least ten turns for them.



Finally and again near Stalingrad we have thirteen interceptor air groups, though decidedly more battered than last turn. They are left to the Rumanians who soon find them losing heart and so we return to unescorted and unopposed day bombing of their airbases. With the skies clear further damage levels are built up at the Stalingrad Tank factory and at the South Stalingrad arms factory. The Rumanians also keep damage levels at Novorossiysk high. With the lower Don and Crimea out of the mud zone the Rumanian air force also finds itself fully engaged in ground support and bombing missions.



We are no longer destroying 1000+ Soviet aircraft a turn as in the heady days of a few turns ago. But the new norm does seem to be around 500. Very few aircraft types other than fighters or fighter bombers are being caught - mainly because they are not on the map at all. But if anything we are continuing to get as many fighters and fighter bombers as we ever did. The uptick in quality and complements we had detected recently seemed to have had a blip this turn. And the Soviet crunch on interceptor numbers seems to have caught all except their biplane groups.

Mud has certainly curtailed our air operations this turn. And our airbase munitions stocks started to run out in most of them this turn- some were preserved for the fighters during the Soviet phase but little has been left for interdiction in what will be mostly a mud turn anyway. As a result far less was availiable for strategic bombing - only the Saratov and Stalingrad group of factories along with a few others in range of our shorter range level bombers really got hit this turn. General industry is certainly being repaired faster than it is being damaged.

On the other hand the lower level of air activity has meant lower loss levels for us.



< Message edited by Telemecus -- 2/15/2018 2:52:30 PM >

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Post #: 230
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 2/16/2018 1:59:49 PM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Turn 16 Allocations
For information only - team allocations for turn 16

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RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 2/16/2018 1:59:58 PM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Turn 16 14-October-1941 Soviet

When the soviet turn comes to us we eagerly await to see their action packed turn!



Maybe not.

The fact that there is not even any interdiction indicates hardly any movement. Apart from a few cases of retreat where units would otherwise have their supply lines in our ZOCs we can see no changes on the front.

So the question is what did the Soviets do in their turn? - we will have to find out ...

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 2/16/2018 2:01:06 PM >

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RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 2/16/2018 4:28:29 PM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Turn 17 15-October-1941 Centre

Our Centre commander gets some Lebensraum of his own around Moscow


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Post #: 233
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 2/16/2018 6:05:57 PM   
Telemecus


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Status: offline 		Turn 17 15-October-1941 North

After Leningrad 18th army flips to be south of 16th army. 4th Panzer Group surrounds Kalinin and gives further elbow room to our hold of Moscow. The last forces west of the Volkhov are pushed back




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Post #: 234
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 2/21/2018 7:26:17 PM   
thedude357


Posts: 87
Joined: 10/13/2012
From: California
Status: offline 		Army Group South Turn 17

Some action on this turn as the weather turns clear and 11th Army has a successful attack near Sevastopol. An Airborne regiment was dropped on Kerch to cut supply for the defenders near Ak'manay, relief was supposed to come with 11th Army and Romanians, but they failed to breach the defenses. The airborne regiment is unfortunately now doomed.

Elements of 1st Panzer Group, 11th Army, the Italian Expeditionary Corps, and Romanians briefly cross the Don River and raid Azov, Bataysk, and Manych. The Soviets defending the Don are extremely weak and are smashed out of the way. This secures the Army Group South split on Turn 17, the importance of this Army Group split cannot be understated. The huge command point overload in AGS is now solved. Army Group A & B will be on the map next turn right in time for the approaching winter. Successful leader checks, slight supply increases, reserve activation, and support units committed to battle will now be optimized by German generals.

The other action is around Voronezh but the 6th Army will not be able to capture the city before the weather turns bad. A small pocket is formed by elements of 3rd PzG and 6th Army west of Lipetsk. It is not exactly a strong pocket but some Soviets will be isolated.




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Post #: 235
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 3/12/2018 9:36:38 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 17 15-October-1941 Operation Dumbo Drop

Although it did not achieve all we had hoped, Operation Dumbo Drop as it had been code named by the team, showed that the Soviets are not the only ones with the ability to land airborne troops. This would leave the Soviet forces in the Kerch peninsula isolated at the start of their turn 17.



< Message edited by Telemecus -- 3/12/2018 10:20:43 AM >

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Post #: 236
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 3/12/2018 10:10:46 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 17 15-October-1941 Air

During the Soviet logisitics phase there was no partisan supply. During the Soviet action phase there was no interception, no airbase bombing, no ground bombing, no city bombing, no ground support, no reconnaisance and no air supply missions. During our action phase there is no interdiction, no interception and no ground support by the Soviets.

Our recon air groups set out to conduct extensive reconnaisance of detected Soviet airbases to establish their dispositions.



AIR WAR? WHAT AIR WAR?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 3/12/2018 10:17:36 AM >

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Post #: 237
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 3/12/2018 4:32:27 PM   
Telemecus


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Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 17 15-October-1941 Economic

So what did the Soviet team do?

With no battles, no movement and no air force the big question is what did the Soviets do in their turn? After a lot of searching and clicking we finally get the big answer:-



The LaGG-3 factory at Dzerzhinsk near Gorky faced no prospects whatsoever of being overun by ground forces in the near future - its evacuation is solely down to our air bombardment of the factory. In itself this is a remarkable achievement.

The LaGG-3 factory at Dzerzhinsk, if left unhindered, would produce 22 LaGG-3s every turn from turn 2 until turn 54, 1,166 in total. We are unlikely to be able to cause further damage to the factory in its new location. The bombing damage together with its evacuation means we expect it will only produce 889. The 277 LaGG-3s we expect they lost in production from this factory however are all front loaded to 1941 and a little in January 1942.

The evacuation of the LaGG-33 factory doubled the damage levels we left the factory at last turn, but clearly the Soviet team saw that as a price worth paying to remove the option of continued bombing in future. If we had done no more bombing and there had been no evacuation we expect they would only have lost 67 LaGG-3s in production. The fact that they would evacuate causing the probable loss of 210 extra implicitly means they think our continued bombing would have destroyed 211 or more extra LaGG-3s. I'd like to think the Soviet team hired an expensive investment banker to use the Black-Scholes formula to accurately price these options. But even if they did it by intuition they may be right.

Strategic bombing

With no Soviet Air Force to oppose us it perhaps makes more sense to address strategic bombing from its economic effects rather than as part of the air war. Having started off as a way to disperse the Soviet interceptor force it has become an end in itself.

Our strategic bombing campaign continues along the length of the Volga valley and into the West Caucasus - and is now unopposed. In spite of the loss of a target at Dzerzinsk we continue to bomb another LaGG-3 factory at Gorky and the three Yak-1 factories near Saratov whose output has been choked to 10-11 a week with damages in the twenties or thirties percent. We attack the vehicle factory at Yaroslavl while the Murom vehicle fatory reaches 45% damage. The T-34 factories at Gorky and Stalingrad are under bombardment and a new tank factory comes into focus



The South Stalingrad T60 factory started production last turn but we forgot to bomb it then. So it's capacity has expanded from 1 to 2 a week - eventually it will produce 50 a week if allowed to expand. But bombing damage such as this will prevent it from doing so. In discussion one person thought damage in the Axis turn had to be at least 4% to leave 1% damage in the Soviet phase after repair for no expansion - but this is not so, 1% in the Axis phase is enough to prevent expansion in the Soviet phase. So expanding factories expanding from a small production run to a final large one are prone to enormous losses just from as little as 1% damage. But we see here how much damage can be inflicted on a factory with a small production run - 42% damage after two raids by the Rumanian air force would be unimaginable for the T-60 factory at Gorky which has already reached a capacity of 50. This level of damage will not be repaired for 14 turns, in about 8 of which we would expect to see production stop or about 16 T-60s lost. But the delayed expansion means we know for certain that an additional 672 T-60s that would have been built now never will be. Again front loaded. There are different views about the value of bombing T-34 factories with some believing it is only drawing down on the large pool of surplus tanks of this model they will have anyway. But on the loss of T-60 production there is near-univeral agreement.



As has been posted elsewhere the T60 factory is so vulnerable that it makes sense to evacuate it early before it has even started production to the East when it is also cheapest on rail cap. The ToEs of Soviet tank units are largely light tanks at this stage which are in short supply, losing this amount of production in 1941 is highly significant.



So close - but it looks like Kazan will be the one that gets away.

Factories lost

With further industry being overun by ground forces this turn the total Soviet factories lost or isolated stands at

-Arms 104
-Hvy 74
-Vehicle 40
-Pe-3
-Li-2
-Li-2W
-LaGG-3 "11 series"
-Su-2
-Il-4
-Il-10
-Pe-2
-U2-VSx3
-BA-10 Armd Car

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 3/12/2018 5:30:19 PM >

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Post #: 238
RE: OKH - 8 player multiplayer Axis thread - 3/12/2018 6:59:21 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 17 Allocations
For information only - team allocations for turn 17.

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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/2/2018 5:56:42 PM >

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8MP Axis T18 - 3/12/2018 6:59:44 PM   
Telemecus


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Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Turn 18 22-October-1941 Centre

Mud



Edit:

Also the following picture shows rail repair in centre at end of turn 18




to see a debate on it see post 15 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4639282&mpage=1

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/31/2019 7:08:31 PM >

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