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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 1:12:41 PM   
Canoerebel


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I just wandered into this thread and enjoyed it a lot. Thanks for the tip off, gents. I won't go near Indianapolis. Ever.

I'm sure the real world would look on us a peculiar bunch, getting worked up over Alabama used as a stand-in for a heavy cruiser. But I know that feeling exactly. I'll never forget watching Thin Red Line (sorry, Obvert, for bringing this up again) and losing my lunch when a modern US Navy frigate rounded a cape and steamed into view. I don't recall whether it was supposed to represent a US DD or an IJN DD...but what in the heck was it doing in 1942? That was the moment that a bad movie (to me) became unbearable.

When watching WWII movies, is ignorance bliss? Is it better to be a millennial who doesn't have a clue and therefore doesn't nitpick the movies to death, or is it better to know your history so that you can't stand the stuff but drive everybody else (except Forumites) bonkers?

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 1:27:42 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I'm sure the real world would look on us a peculiar bunch


You ain't just whistlin' Dixie, bud.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 1:34:02 PM   
Encircled


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Dan Snow, a famous TV history guy over on this side of the pond just had a twitter poll for the worst historically accurate movie.

I, after much deliberation, choose Braveheart over the film that shall not be named, but it was close!

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 1:36:10 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

When watching WWII movies, is ignorance bliss? Is it better to be a millennial who doesn't have a clue and therefore doesn't nitpick the movies to death, or is it better to know your history so that you can't stand the stuff but drive everybody else (except Forumites) bonkers?


I have my son trained. Now he nitpicks everything. In the last Fast & Furious movie (from a few years ago) he figured out the runway length for the movies climax was 27.8 miles long

Makes a fathers heart swell with pride

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If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 1:36:11 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Dan Snow, a famous TV history guy over on this side of the pond just had a twitter poll for the worst historically accurate movie.

I, after much deliberation, choose Braveheart over the film that shall not be named, but it was close!


I assume that you had not seen Indianapolis? If not, it seems like you made your decision in the absence of complete information.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 1:37:39 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

When watching WWII movies, is ignorance bliss? Is it better to be a millennial who doesn't have a clue and therefore doesn't nitpick the movies to death, or is it better to know your history so that you can't stand the stuff but drive everybody else (except Forumites) bonkers?


I have my son trained. Now he nitpicks everything. In the last Fast & Furious movie (from a few years ago) he figured out the runway length for the movies climax was 27.8 miles long

Makes a fathers heart swell with pride


Did he have some commentary on Vin Diesel pushing a skidding torpedo out of the way and sending it careening off course towards the baddies?

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 1:40:44 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Did he have some commentary on Vin Diesel pushing a skidding torpedo out of the way and sending it careening off course towards the baddies?


He's 20 years old. He has commentary on everything

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 1:42:08 PM   
Encircled


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I have not seen Indianapolis, but to be fair, he only named a choice of 4.
The other two were Alexander which I quite like, and U-571 which is terrible and historically inaccurate, but not as terrible or as historically inaccurate as the two I agonised over.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 2:10:36 PM   
nashvillen


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Another reason I prefer the MCU movies over any "historical" movies. I know going in that there is no history involved and it is just a fun romp of the imagination.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 2:26:58 PM   
MakeeLearn


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I made it 5 minutes into Indianapolis when I was overcome by a void of tackiness. I quickly ended the movie and watched West of Shanghai 1937 with Boris Karloff. He plays a "entertaining" Chinese General. New is not better.

Historical inaccuracy can be overlooked if the movie is at least enjoyable.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 4/28/2017 2:27:11 PM >

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 2:53:14 PM   
Canoerebel


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Have you all considered Gettysburg? I love the movie, and I think it's highly regarded in the forum.

The reason I mention it is that I doubt there will ever be another Civil War movie like it. Political sensibilities and modern perceptions of social justice and racism will prevent a movie with such a neutral tone. It did a magnificent job (IMO) of incorporating discourse about slavery and the "divine spark" in the "black man" into the movie (Chamberlain's conversation with his sergeant, in particular). It also included the Secesh prisoner saying that he was fighting for his "rats" and Pickett's analogy about "withdrawing from a gentleman's club." Such things would be verboten today, although I think they accurately portrayed the mindset of many/most people of that day.

From now on, Civil War movies will likely be gross exaggerations, weird A-Team type action pictures distorted like Indianapolis is, or social commentaries to make the point that slavery was bad and that therefore all southerners were bad.

That's just the nature of the evolution of sensibilities but it makes Gettysburg an anachronism to be treasured forever. One day it'll be banned, like Song of the South is and like Gone With the Wind eventually will be.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 3:12:23 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

Gettysburg



I was told by some local reenactors that those from Texas packed up after a few days and went home. Too many things being thrown at them..... and other things floating around.


Any comments on "nature of the evolution of Political sensibilities and modern perceptions of social justice and racism..." would take days to write and get me banned.


Birth of A Nation(1915) VS Birth of A Nation(2016)


Or just watch Animal Farm


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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 3:34:50 PM   
Canoerebel


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I haven't seen either Birth of a Nation and don't plan to. My children have seen the 1915 version and often talk about it in hushed voices, sort of like you'd talk about a nightmarish visit to a proctologist or a four-hour physics exam given by an instructor who failed miserably at teaching the course.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 3:41:12 PM   
Encircled


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I liked "Ride with the Devil", though I haven't any idea if its historically inaccurate or not (not my period to be honest)

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 3:42:29 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Have you all considered Gettysburg? I love the movie, and I think it's highly regarded in the forum.


Lee was miscast!

Buford was excellent!

Spent a day there with my son recently, who described in detail how a meeting engagement would evolve today. The lethality!

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 3:55:22 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Have you all considered Gettysburg? I love the movie, and I think it's highly regarded in the forum.


It was certainly a good movie. But I can't stomach much about the Civil War. Something about it is too conceptually unnerving.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 3:56:39 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Have you all considered Gettysburg? I love the movie, and I think it's highly regarded in the forum.

The reason I mention it is that I doubt there will ever be another Civil War movie like it. Political sensibilities and modern perceptions of social justice and racism will prevent a movie with such a neutral tone. It did a magnificent job (IMO) of incorporating discourse about slavery and the "divine spark" in the "black man" into the movie (Chamberlain's conversation with his sergeant, in particular). It also included the Secesh prisoner saying that he was fighting for his "rats" and Pickett's analogy about "withdrawing from a gentleman's club." Such things would be verboten today, although I think they accurately portrayed the mindset of many/most people of that day.

From now on, Civil War movies will likely be gross exaggerations, weird A-Team type action pictures distorted like Indianapolis is, or social commentaries to make the point that slavery was bad and that therefore all southerners were bad.

That's just the nature of the evolution of sensibilities but it makes Gettysburg an anachronism to be treasured forever. One day it'll be banned, like Song of the South is and like Gone With the Wind eventually will be.


There was a recent film Field of Lost Shoes that didn't look too awful from the trailers. Have you seen it?

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 3:59:08 PM   
Canoerebel


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Lee was okay, I think. Probably a bit too soft spoken and emotional, but they were trying hard to convey that he was a gentleman and a thinking/sensitive man. When Lee rides among the men of Longstreet's Corps, the effect is pretty well done.

Many characters in the movie were superb: Buford (as you say), Chamberlain, Armistead, Longstreet, Reynolds, Hood, Pettigrew and (one of my favorites) Trimble ("...if you give me one regiment, I will take that hill!")

I found Hancock, Stuart, Pickett, and Garnett not as well done (not distracting, just not quite as strong).

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 4:00:35 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
There was a recent film Field of Lost Shoes that didn't look too awful from the trailers. Have you seen it?


I haven't seen it or heard of it.

I ought to say this: I don't have television, so I never see commercials. Many movies come and go and I never realize it. My family and you guys are my chief source of information about what's worth seeing.

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Post #: 49
RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 4:01:00 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Song of the South


It's interesting that this movie is approaching its 50th anniversary and, as such, will be subject to public domain laws. They may allow for it to see the light of day again. I've heard rumor that it may be re-released by Disney in order that it still be somewhat under their purview and control.

I've wanted to see this movie again for years, as I think it a wonderful recitation of southern folk tales and song. I saw it in the theaters when I was young and loved it.

Disney recognizes the quality of some of the mythos and ethos from the genre and naturally had to 'Disnify' it with the Brer Fox/Rabbit/Bear/Splash Mountain approach.

ETA: SOTS just had its 70th anniversary, not 50. Apparently Bob Eiger, the CEO of Disney hates the movie and has blunted all shareholder efforts to bring this fine film back.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 4/28/2017 4:52:04 PM >


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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 4:02:32 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
There was a recent film Field of Lost Shoes that didn't look too awful from the trailers. Have you seen it?


I haven't seen it or heard of it.

I ought to say this: I don't have television, so I never see commercials. Many movies come and go and I never realize it. My family and you guys are my chief source of information about what's worth seeing.



Has it been established that you own that new-fangled DVD/Blu-Ray player type device for watching them thar shiny discs on a screen in your home?

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 4:17:49 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

Disney recognizes the quality of some of the mythos and ethos from the genre and naturally had to 'Disnify' it with the Brer Fox/Rabbit/Bear/Splash Mountain approach.



They are part of southern folk tales incorporated mainly through the Creek Indians' tales of Brother Rabbit ect.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 4:25:30 PM   
Canoerebel


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We do have a television set connect to a VHS machine and a DVD machine. We watch a heckuva lot of movies, both old and some new, and some TV series that we buy on occasion.

My daughter attended a Christian college near Knoxville, Tennessee. In class one day, a professor was preparing to lecture on the Trinity. He started the class with a PowerPoint presentation of slides of "famous threesomes," like the Three Musketeers and Three Stooges. Then he said, "Nobody's ever gotten the next threesome," and put up the slide. My daughter's hand shot up: "Hoss, Joe and Adam!" My daughter's roommate pointed to her and said, "She's my roommate. She's so cute."

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 5:16:10 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Song of the South


It's interesting that this movie is approaching its 50th anniversary and, as such, will be subject to public domain laws. They may allow for it to see the light of day again. I've heard rumor that it may be re-released by Disney in order that it still be somewhat under their purview and control.

I've wanted to see this movie again for years, as I think it a wonderful recitation of southern folk tales and song. I saw it in the theaters when I was young and loved it.

Disney recognizes the quality of some of the mythos and ethos from the genre and naturally had to 'Disnify' it with the Brer Fox/Rabbit/Bear/Splash Mountain approach.

ETA: SOTS just had its 70th anniversary, not 50. Apparently Bob Eiger, the CEO of Disney hates the movie and has blunted all shareholder efforts to bring this fine film back.

The stereotyping of the black people in the movie was probably why it was withdrawn from circulation, but I agree with what you say about folk tales and songs. The gent singing "Old Man River" had a great, deep voice but still hit the high notes.
I also so the movie as a child and the impression I had of the black people was that they had dignity and honesty. I didn't understand slavery and prejudice back then but I knew the black folks were decent people in the movie. That made it OK by me.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 6:16:41 PM   
Canoerebel


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Contemporary academic and social justice thinking is that it's racist to portray black characters in the role of slaves or laborers as happy or cheerful. They're right that slavery and Jim Crow life were basically miserable states of existence in which the people yearned for freedom or a fair chance, too often chaffing under mistreatment, inequality and an unequal opportunity for the "pursuit of happiness."

But people are remarkable at finding ways to survive and sometimes thrive in adverse circumstance. There were slaves and Jim Crow-era blacks who enjoyed life. Some thrived. Sometimes black slaves, black tenant farmers, and black laborers had cordial and affectionate relationships with their white owners or neighbors. I think it would be fair to say that was perhaps startlingly common, while also acknowledging that far too often there was mistreatment and cruelty ("absolute power corrupts).

Movies suggesting that white supremacy was beneficial or desirable would be detestable. Movies suggesting that blacks willingly embraced a subservient role (usually or all of the time) would be historically inaccurate and therefore detestable to we Forumites. Movies suggesting that it was possible for whites and blacks to get along, or for blacks to be at times happy or joyful and cordial with their white neighbors would be historically accurate.

I haven't seen Song of the South in many years, but I didn't find it offensive at the time. Gone With the Wind does portray the slaves as mostly humble and cheerful in their servitude; that was possible though not universal, so the movie sees the South through rose-colored glasses, as told from the point of view of the privileged class. If the makers had wanted to present a more balanced view, they could've depicted slave auctions and whippings and whites fathering children by their slaves, which would be rape by any definition of the word. But the movie wasn't there to make a message or teach history; it was there to entertain through drama, and did a good job of it. It's not a perfect movie but those circumstances could have existed.

Gettysburg was a nice balancing act that managed to do a lot of things rather seamlessly.

I recognize that my views on these topics would be noxious to 75% of New York Timesand Washington Post readers. People see these things way differently.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 6:44:19 PM   
Zorch

 

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I respect your opinion. I think 'disagree' is more accurate than your word 'noxious'.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 6:59:45 PM   
Canoerebel


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You're in the other 25%. :)

The Forum is a remarkably learned and reasonable group, more interested in accuracy and history than polemics and open hostility to anyone that disagrees with them. It's a rare environment.

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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 7:27:21 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Contemporary academic and social justice thinking is that it's racist to portray black characters in the role of slaves or laborers as happy or cheerful. They're right that slavery and Jim Crow life were basically miserable states of existence in which the people yearned for freedom or a fair chance, too often chaffing under mistreatment, inequality and an unequal opportunity for the "pursuit of happiness."

But people are remarkable at finding ways to survive and sometimes thrive in adverse circumstance. There were slaves and Jim Crow-era blacks who enjoyed life. Some thrived. Sometimes black slaves, black tenant farmers, and black laborers had cordial and affectionate relationships with their white owners or neighbors. I think it would be fair to say that was perhaps startlingly common, while also acknowledging that far too often there was mistreatment and cruelty ("absolute power corrupts).

Movies suggesting that white supremacy was beneficial or desirable would be detestable. Movies suggesting that blacks willingly embraced a subservient role (usually or all of the time) would be historically inaccurate and therefore detestable to we Forumites. Movies suggesting that it was possible for whites and blacks to get along, or for blacks to be at times happy or joyful and cordial with their white neighbors would be historically accurate.

I haven't seen Song of the South in many years, but I didn't find it offensive at the time. Gone With the Wind does portray the slaves as mostly humble and cheerful in their servitude; that was possible though not universal, so the movie sees the South through rose-colored glasses, as told from the point of view of the privileged class. If the makers had wanted to present a more balanced view, they could've depicted slave auctions and whippings and whites fathering children by their slaves, which would be rape by any definition of the word. But the movie wasn't there to make a message or teach history; it was there to entertain through drama, and did a good job of it. It's not a perfect movie but those circumstances could have existed.

Gettysburg was a nice balancing act that managed to do a lot of things rather seamlessly.

I recognize that my views on these topics would be noxious to 75% of New York Timesand Washington Post readers. People see these things way differently.


Slavery is often looked at strictly emotional or thru a different lens for an ulterior motive. The process I find to be abhorrent, but there are facts not commonly known:

Every race was enslaved at some point of their history. Christians were enslaved even in the early 1800's along the northern coast of Africa for example. Slavery exists currently.

There were black slave owners in the South, owning as many a 50 slaves especially in Louisiana. I believe the first slave owner in the colonies was himself a freed slave from the Caribbean. In addition, the population of freed blacks was greater in the south than in the north at the time of the civil war. So not all blacks were slaves in the south.

The Brazilian use of slavery lasted longer than in North America, and was particularly painful in that they imported I believe more slaves and on a ratio of something like 10 males for each female.

And then there is all the black slavery that went east and not west to the new world.

None of this justifies or endorses slavery, but I believe the correct historical record.

Please feel free to correct me, because I have not made an in depth study of this...

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Post #: 58
RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 7:32:53 PM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman
I feel like doing some sort of penance for having seen this.


You've got it all backwards, stuman. Seeing Indianapolis: Men of Courage is what you do FOR penance.

Next time I think I'll take the hair shirt and flagellation.

By the way, you forgot to comment on the crap direction too.


You make a good point. I must have done something very bad ( a lot to choose from my wife
would probably say ) to have this stinky movie foisted upon me.

And yes, the direction, or perhaps one could say the lack thereof, kind of sucked.


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RE: The movie that shall not be named - 4/28/2017 8:01:40 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

You're in the other 25%. :)

The Forum is a remarkably learned and reasonable group, more interested in accuracy and history than polemics and open hostility to anyone that disagrees with them. It's a rare environment.

+1!

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Post #: 60
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