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- 5/19/2001 8:30:00 AM

Paul Vebber

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Hey is this the battlefront forum???? Jees Louise give a guy a break!!! IF folks want to post questions let them...if they are off base show 'em with something substantive - throw in some wise cracks with some real data... per my Chamberlain and Doyle 88L56 pen 2000m=84 1500m=91 1000m=100 500m=110 The T/D advantage enhanced this by as much as 1/3. The "ballpark" effective thickness of the T-34 front hull (47@60) = 47/cos(60)^1.4 = 124 Now I took a platoon of Tigers with country training on and ran 30 T-34-M43 at them from 3000yards over a blank map from a spreadout deployment on the map edge. using alt-L combat logging I looked at the results of the hits 75 Hits were scored by Tigers the furthest at 2950 yards and the closest at 550 yrds 25 T-34s were destroyed outright (~33% of hits scored) and 2 immobilized and abandoned (3 retreated away) the furthest at 1750 and the closest at 550 yrds - no T-34 closed to within 550 yards of the 4 Tigers, the the Tigers all had < 10 AP rounds left at the end... 35 hits were "no effect" or ~47% of the total: --9 were at 1500 yards or more where even with the T/D advantge of 120-135mm effective penetration, the slope gives a similar range of effecive armor. 4 kills occured at these ranges. --14 were ricochets (19% of hits) of which 7 were against side aspects with aspect angles greater than 60 degrees --1 was an "ineffective suspension hit' --11 were "bounces" inside "effective range" or ~15% of hits corresponding well to the proportion of hits on the "periphery" of the target profile where little if any damage would be expected, though that is not explicitly modled. 11 hits caused damage to some degree. 4 caused "crew stunned" results but no damage The result to the Tigers was 21 hits, 1 of whiched casued 1 * of damage on a front hull "vulnerable location" hit 1 or which disabled a suspension 2 destroyed "main gun optics" 2 caused "crew stunned" and 1 Tiger to retreat one turn 6 ricocheted 2 of which were "high angle" side hits 9 were "bounces" These results seem well within the bounds of the historical record. 4 Tigers holding off 30 T-34s with any sort of terrain would be difficult. IF anyone wants to see the full combat txt file of the test let me know. [ May 18, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

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Post #: 31

- 5/19/2001 10:37:00 AM

Paul Vebber

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For giggles I had 40 HTs charge at that platoon of Tigers...results: 47 hits in all before the game ended by morale break 25 destroyed outright (53% of hits) 19 caused damage of one degree or another (40%) 5 were abandoned 1 was an ineffective suspension hit (2%) 2 were ricochets (1 a glancing side hit) 4% of hits. Again, these results are quite believable.

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Post #: 32

- 5/19/2001 10:42:00 AM

Don

Posts: 810
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Also, if you do not use op-fire you will have a much higher hit-percentage on your turn. Fabio put that in the tutorial write-up, and it really makes a difference.

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Post #: 33

- 5/19/2001 10:45:00 AM

Warrior

Posts: 1808
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From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
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quote:

Originally posted by DELTA3-2: Perhaps when you reach the age of puberty you'll start maturing.

Perhaps the pot is calling the kettle black? I may be immature (just because I'm getting older doesn't mean I have to be mature, so there!), but I don't whine about that which cannot be corrected. Instead I consider it the fortunes of war, and think I enjoy the game a lot more than you do.

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Post #: 34

- 5/19/2001 11:05:00 AM

tracer

Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
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quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Hey is this the battlefront forum???? Jees Louise give a guy a break!!! IF folks want to post questions let them...if they are off base show 'em with something substantive - throw in some wise cracks with some real data...

Well put. When you look at solid numbers, like that log file, the penetration model results and hit percentages are accurate IMO. But I think we've all been in those situations where we feel the rolls are unfairly going against you...just gotta remember the odds-on-favorite doesn't always win the race (otherwise my dad wouldn't have had to sell our car...j/k :p ) I remember when they first introduced ricochets into SPWAW and I had stumbled on a routed (via artillery) T-34 with one of my Panthers in an adjacent hex. Hit chance was something like 80% and with an evil grin on my face ('kiss the Rodina goodbye Ivan!')I fired at its right front corner. 'Clang!' Huh?...never heard that sound come outta my speakers before. Box said 'ricochet / no damage'. Then I remember seeing something about that in the release notes and figure its a fluke...besides, this Panther has almost all its AP rounds left and now the hit chance is like 98%. Fire...'Clang!' WTF!!! I check the encyclopedia and start looking at 'slope' numbers; figure I better bone up on them before my next e-mail game. Fire again...'Clang!'...'NOW WAIT A DAMN MINUTE! IS THERE A REFEREE AROUND?!!'. I pull another Panther up along the other side (rear corner) and fire all its shots: 3 out of 4 hit, all ricochets. Guess about that time I realized the game had a new 'feature' (and that I had just wasted alot of AP rounds). Also realized there was a squad of fallschirmjager riding on one of the Panthers which dismounted and finished off the T-34, which was probably the correct move anyway. I have to echo what Slayer said earlier in the thread; I'm not complaining, but it IS frustrating.

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Post #: 35

- 5/19/2001 8:19:00 PM

Charles2222

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quote:

The "ballpark" effective thickness of the T-34 front hull (47@60) = 47/cos(60)^1.4 = 124

Ahhhhh, so my equating 10 degrees of slope to 10mm of flat armor wasn't so far off. [ May 19, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]

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Post #: 36

- 5/19/2001 10:02:00 PM

Paul Vebber

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Actually 10 degrees only adds about 2% THe divide by cos(angle) raised to the 14 power is a good aproximation, T/D ratio will vary the ecponant for ~1 to 2+

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Post #: 37

- 5/19/2001 10:10:00 PM

sven

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so what is the best slope? Is it 45degrees or closer to the 33 degrees a lot of armor at the Ord. Mus. here in Aberdeen have? :confused:

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Post #: 38

- 5/19/2001 10:24:00 PM

Charles2222

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Paul Vebber:

(Sherman speaking here) So, tell me Mr. Peabody, oh thou of mathmatical expertise which I have not, if I understand your formula, even a tad, you're saying that 10 degrees is a minimum of 10mm flat armor, but can go slightly over 20mm flat armor. If I understand things correctly, the flat armor way of looking at the front armor of the T34 would be constant, so that if another tank had the same slope, and it's armor were a higher amount, that is where you would start getting into each 10mm of slope having closer to 20mm+, correct? [ May 19, 2001: Message edited by: Charles_22 ]

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Post #: 39

- 5/19/2001 11:06:00 PM

Paul Vebber

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Actually there is evidence that 45 degrees of slope is the best, but for reasons that I have not totally fathomed yet...even though it appears "more slope should be beter" there is somthing about how teh round starts to tumble when it strikes that makes something around 45-50 appear in lab tests to be the best...I've got about a 6 in stack of articles form the Internatioal Journal of Impact Dynamics" I have yet to understand fully! Ther is no "xslope = ymm" You have to plug into the formula basically you multiply teh base armor by a factor related to slope in both horizontal and vertical the "multiplier" that is used varies with a number of factors, the 1.4 power formula is a 1st order aproximation: 10 1.02 20 1.09 30 1.22 40 1.46 50 1.86 55 2.18 60 2.64 65 3.34 70 4.49 75 6.63 Multiply the base armor thickness by the number and you get n approximate value of "effective thickness' for APC rounds. HEAT works aginst the geometric thickness or 10 1.02 20 1.06 30 1.15 40 1.31 50 1.56 55 1.74 60 2 65 2.37 70 2.92 75 3.86 Much past 75 degrees results in an automatic richochet unles the T/D is less than about .2 Even then i always ghhave at least a 2% chance ofr richochet becasue of structural members and other irregualrities in any vehicle.... [ May 19, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

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Post #: 40

- 5/20/2001 2:11:00 AM

DELTA32

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Dear Forum....I want to thank those of you who decided you were so righteous that you could attack my intelligence, my job, my employer, and even my home state....simply because you didn't like that I decided to criticize the Richochet factor in 5.01. Unbelievable...that you who think so highly of yourselves. So tell me high and mighty ones....what can I post here that would be acceptable to you ? Delta 3-2

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Post #: 41

- 5/20/2001 2:19:00 AM

DELTA32

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quote:

Originally posted by sven: Delta is quickly becoming the 'Official Troll' for SPWAW. An honor, I am sure he has dilligently aspired to since his joining the forum. He transcends state lines and indeed is a 'Citizen of the World'. happy times upon you, sven :D

Sven, can you explain to me what makes me "the Official Troll" ? Can you also explain to me what makes you so important and so righteous that you attack me continuously here ? Thank you....as I'm really looking forward to your, undoubtedly, most intelligent answer. Delta 3-2

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Post #: 42

- 5/20/2001 2:43:00 AM

sven

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Delta I'd like to thank you for the personal e-mail you felt the need to send me. You are rude, condescending, abrasive, and shrill. Here is a link for your propensity to be a bit caddish. http://www.matrixgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=004680 How about some sexism just for good measure? http://www.matrixgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=004092 You act as though you are some poor waylaid innocent. I am sorry did I hurt your feelings, Oh wise Jedi Knight? Paul V said(far better than I could hope to opine)that he feels that the game is modeling the relative merits of the Tiger very well. He presented 'hard data', but I failed to see yours in your first post. Quite the contrary actually you seem to have an 'ongoing saga' as concerns the Tiger. Delta if I injured your feelings I apologize. If I diminished your self-esteem(we are after all an 'Army of One')I beseech you accept my pleading sorrow. If you think I was rude.... look in a mirror. regards, sven p.s. I am no one special. Just a member of long standing who tires of your antics. Your humble peon, sven

quote:

Originally posted by DELTA3-2: Sven, can you explain to me what makes me "the Official Troll" ? Can you also explain to me what makes you so important and so righteous that you attack me continuously here ? Thank you....as I'm really looking forward to your, undoubtedly, most intelligent answer. Delta 3-2

;) ;) ;)

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Post #: 43

- 5/20/2001 3:27:00 AM

Paul Vebber

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Delta, any comment on the example? If it is not an acceptable "bounce rate" or "richochet" rate what should it be? and by what method do you think it should be determined? The comparison with charging half tracks show that the richochet routine is scaling appropriately with T/D. I sympathize with the fact the peanut gallery was a bit over zealous, but you do tend to invite such a respoonse with your tone sometimes... I don;t have time to do a more complete examination, but I invite others to duplicate my experiment and will share the little test scenario. The game provides the opportunity for "freaky occurances" to happen. Sometimes bad luck means an impression of a problem is generated, but with large samples like these, where teh luck evens out - I think the engine demostrates a pretty good level of historical accuracy, and if anything tneds to summarily destroy things a bit too often.

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Post #: 44

- 5/20/2001 4:59:00 AM

Mikimoto

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Hello. To Delta: I'm a zealous, vicious pro-german, pro-european gamer/historian (ancient History, Rome speciallized), an arqueologist but working with... computers!!! And I am frontally opposed to those who use that "tone". Actually I don't want "problems" but with that Neandertals I am very combative. It seems a little baby with a Nuke in each hand. Irresponsible, ignorant and destructive... From the people that invented the Guerrilla, and the Conquistadores of Am�rica, t�o listo. :mad:

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Post #: 45

- 5/20/2001 7:21:00 AM

DELTA32

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by sven: [QB]Delta I'd like to thank you for the personal e-mail you felt the need to send me. You are rude, condescending, abrasive, and shrill. Well pal...you invited it ! There was NOTHING in my original posting that should have prompted your smart-ass comments. Personally, I'd rather have you post a reply telling me you don't think I should post. Get right to the point. Secondly...I sent you the personal e-mail because I didn't want to go into the bashing here, publicly. But, I can if you care to. How about some sexism just for good measure? Am I sexist ? Absolutely ! I make NO bones about it. Perhaps if women spent time in the home being mothers, and caring for their families, instead of trying to be men...we wouldn't be in the situation of juvenile violence we find in these United States today. You act as though you are some poor waylaid innocent. I am sorry did I hurt your feelings, Oh wise Jedi Knight? Your sarcasm is lost here...and no you wouldn't be sorry if you hurt my feelings...you didn't hurt them...and you aren't sorry. Paul V said(far better than I could hope to opine)that he feels that the game is modeling the relative merits of the Tiger very well. He presented 'hard data', but I failed to see yours in your first post. Well...I don't have hard data....you see I'm just a bumpkin from the great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and what could I post here that would enlighten the likes of you ? Quite the contrary actually you seem to have an 'ongoing saga' as concerns the Tiger. Actually, I do ! I believe the Tiger I or Tiger E, was the M1A2 of it's day. It produced the greatest number of German Panzer aces...and was probably the single most successful German tank of the war. I think a game is a game...however the modelling of the Tiger takes away from it's legendary abilities. Anyway, I love armor...spent years in it....and I look at the Tiger I as a tank that influenced tank design well into the 1960's. So...do I have a fascination for the Tiger...absolutely. It was a marvel for it's time. Delta if I injured your feelings I apologize. Don't apologize....you aren't sincere. If I diminished your self-esteem(we are after all an 'Army of One')I beseech you accept my pleading sorrow. My self-esteem is fine. However...you better do an AAR and re-evaluate yours. If you think I was rude.... look in a mirror. Hmmmm.....where was I rude in this post ? Not until you and a couple of your cronies made disparaging remarks towards me (for no reason) did I get "defensive". regards, sven p.s. I am no one special. Just a member of long standing who tires of your antics. My antics ? I love my country, I fought the cold war while you were not even thought of; I have no use for Communist China and have no love for those who support her. I believe in Americans, and I oppose the Socialism and liberalism overtaking our country. I take little crap from anyone, because ultimately....most people are like the wind....here today, gone tomorrow. I have no use for women invading the career fields that have been male dominated for centuries....and as YOU know so well...I am a sexist and don't really care who knows about it. I own an Electa-Glide, I'm a long-standing member of the National Rifle Association, and raise hell every time I can; it's fun ! Lastly....if you haven't figured it out yet...I don't really care what Sven thinks....because I've EARNED my opinionated "antics". Your humble peon, sven Peon ? Your word, not mine. So, in my brash, tactless, RUDE, condescending, self-serving, and SEXIST way....Have a nice day ! Delta 3-2

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Post #: 46

- 5/20/2001 7:38:00 AM

sven

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How touching.... I always stand in rapt awe of 'Neanderthal Man' at his finest. Look they have an OOB editor. USE IT!!!!!!! Make the Tiger better than the modern M1A2 for all I give a frag. You've said it all before...... You'll say it all again...... over and over and over and over and over and over........ Tiger rules! Tiger rules! Tiger rules! but here is the thing..... You have posted rude, snide things before.... You'll post them again...... and some of us here will always hold you in a special little box thanks to your OT rambling and views. Humble Contrition, Sven p.s. The funny thing is I agree with you on a lot of your BS meanderings, but you make me ashamed to admit it. Maybe a 'Wehrmacht vs. SS' type of thing? please by all means grace me with private correspondence to your hearts content, but let us BOTH agree not to waste the board's time with our little 'personality clash'(me having one and you... well ;) ) You are 11up and 3down, sven :p [ May 19, 2001: Message edited by: sven ]

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Post #: 47

- 5/20/2001 8:05:00 AM

Slayer

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I suppose now would be a bad time to mentioned that I just managed to ricochet a 75L48 round off of a Soviet TRUCK... :confused: Oh well, at least now no one can argue that I have the WORST luck! :rolleyes: [ May 19, 2001: Message edited by: Slayer ]

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Post #: 48

- 5/20/2001 8:08:00 AM

DELTA32

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quote:

Originally posted by Slayer: I suppose now would be a bad time to mentioned that I just managed to ricochet a 75L48 round off of a Soviet TRUCK... :confused: Oh well, at least now no one can argue that I have the WORST luck! :rolleyes: [ May 19, 2001: Message edited by: Slayer ]

FUNNY, VERY FUNNY ! I'm howling ! Delta 3-2

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Post #: 49

- 5/20/2001 8:14:00 AM

Slayer

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quote:

Originally posted by DELTA3-2: FUNNY, VERY FUNNY ! I'm howling ! Delta 3-2

Uh, man, I'm not kidding. I was playing 'The Mause that Roared' and bounced a 75mm shell off of a GAZ-MM at half the range of the T-34s that I was penetrating with the same gun. I'm sorry if I offended you, but I have no intention of getting into the 'argument' between you and some of the other people here.

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- 5/20/2001 8:21:00 AM

DELTA32

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My Enlightened Sven....why don't you re-read my originating post to this thread and tell me what I wrote to deserve this onslaught by you ? You called me every name in the book....and WHY ? Because I dared to criticize 5.01 ? You make this whole debacle sound like something I created. But, it was YOU who for no reason at all attacked me...and continue you attack me. So, to disengage from this situation....I can and will. But YOU had NO reason to attack me.....NONE ! Delta 3-2

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Post #: 51

- 5/20/2001 8:46:00 AM

DELTA32

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quote:

Originally posted by Slayer: I'm sorry if I offended you,

Offend me ? How ? I thought you were joking about the Gaz richochet ! Now it's not so funny. Too bad...the richochet factor is still such a mess. But, hey....it's just a game, right ? Hope you don't richochet any more of those high-velocity AT rounds of the tin of a truck door anymore. Anyway.....I got a good laugh at your "misfortune". Delta 3-2

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Post #: 52

- 5/20/2001 8:53:00 AM

Slayer

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quote:

Originally posted by DELTA3-2: Offend me ? How ?

You just seemed upset at what I said. Oh, well. Nevermind.

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Post #: 53

- 5/20/2001 9:44:00 AM

sven

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Truly Delta let us play with one another and not the whole board. You seem not to have grasped my point which is THIS HAS ALL BEEN GONE OVER BEFORE! ergo find a new gripe or move on.... humbly, sven

quote:

Originally posted by DELTA3-2: My Enlightened Sven....why don't you re-read my originating post to this thread and tell me what I wrote to deserve this onslaught by you ? You called me every name in the book....and WHY ? Because I dared to criticize 5.01 ? You make this whole debacle sound like something I created. But, it was YOU who for no reason at all attacked me...and continue you attack me. So, to disengage from this situation....I can and will. But YOU had NO reason to attack me.....NONE ! Delta 3-2

:cool:

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Post #: 54

- 5/20/2001 10:54:00 AM

11Bravo

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Snipers vs Tigers, this time its personal! Inspired either by Mr. Vebber's hard data or perhaps the late hour, I will share the result of a silly little simulation with you. Blank 80x80 map, meeting engagement, 10 turns, auto deployment, computer control both sides, OP Fire ignored... 4 Konigstigers vs. 25 Soviet snipers Soviet losses: 1 sniper destroyed (by a second shot from an 88 at a range of 2 hexes). No ricochets. German losses: 2 KTigers destroyed along with crews by close assault (snipers armed only with the deadly M1891/30 bullet launcher) 1 KTiger damaged with "suspension disabled" at a range of 4 hexes. No comments or suggestions. Just thought it was funny.

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- 5/20/2001 11:00:00 AM

sven

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Obviously Vasilly Zaitsev was every bit as deadly as they say!

quote:

Originally posted by 11Bravo: Snipers vs Tigers, this time its personal! Inspired either by Mr. Vebber's hard data or perhaps the late hour, I will share the result of a silly little simulation with you. Blank 80x80 map, meeting engagement, 10 turns, auto deployment, computer control both sides, OP Fire ignored... 4 Konigstigers vs. 25 Soviet snipers Soviet losses: 1 sniper destroyed (by a second shot from an 88 at a range of 2 hexes). No ricochets. German losses: 2 KTigers destroyed along with crews by close assault (snipers armed only with the deadly M1891/30 bullet launcher) 1 KTiger damaged with "suspension disabled" at a range of 4 hexes. No comments or suggestions. Just thought it was funny.

;)

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Post #: 56

- 5/20/2001 11:09:00 AM

Paul Vebber

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Still waiting for comment of substance on the data posted...or your data on ricochets. Believe or not even trucks have some some fairly large structural members and like bullets ricocheting off bones they should usually shatter, bigger bullets can do the same thing. Read the Impact Dynamics literature and you'll find nothing is certain! BUt Everybody cut out the 3rd grade "I know you are but what am I" schtick...

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Post #: 57

- 5/20/2001 11:18:00 AM

Warhorse

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Agreed Paul, this is getting ridiculous, and I didn't help with my part either!! After a very civil personal exchange with Dan, we all just need to chill, I honestly don't think he means to step on anyones toes, but just has an abrupt mannerism, hey, who doesn't at times?! So, lets get back to gaming, and get all our hands off each others necks, sound cool?!

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Post #: 58

- 5/20/2001 11:51:00 AM

Paul Vebber

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As to teh snipers, 2 tank commanders killed and other crew eiter abandoned or killed and destryoed by the crew to prevent their catpure perhaps> and the "suspension" hit a driver killed who trashes the gear box in death spasm? C'mon guys use a little imagination! Its supposed to be fun!

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Post #: 59

- 5/20/2001 11:59:00 AM

sven

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The sniper missed the tank, but scared a deer who leaped into the wheel causing the driver to panic flipping the tank...crushing the commander.... and killing all the crew with embarassment.... I mean how would you face your buddies? regards, sven

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: As to teh snipers, 2 tank commanders killed and other crew eiter abandoned or killed and destryoed by the crew to prevent their catpure perhaps> and the "suspension" hit a driver killed who trashes the gear box in death spasm? C'mon guys use a little imagination! Its supposed to be fun!

;)

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Post #: 60