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one combat, 3 bugs - 3/29/2017 11:51:42 PM   
joshuamnave

 

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Status: offline 		German attack on Leningrad in the snow and yes, I'll attach a save game file.

Bug 1: Both sides choose to use winterized units. 2 soviet elite units and 5 Finnish units (4 corps, 1 ski division). The net weather effect should be -3 (-4 for snow, -4 for soviet elite units, +5 for Finnish/ski units) but it's -4

Bug 2: the roll is a modified 20 with a result of 1 kill and the rest shattered. The game says the Soviets must shatter 2 units, with the first being a winterized unit. As I read the rules, the first destroy should be winterized, not the first shatter. None the less, the game will let the Soviets shatter the two winterized units and destroy the AA gun. Not very relevant since there are no retreat hexes, but in other situations it would be, and it leads to ...

Bug 3: After shattering the 2 winterized corps, the third (AA gun) unit is not destroyed. The German Para and the Soviet AA gun remain in the hex, and no other Axis units can advance because "the requirements for an overrun have not been met". If the Soviet player instead shatters the gun and one corps, everything works fine.

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 3:05:36 AM   
paulderynck


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Status: offline 		On bug 1: Both Finn ski units? Boni are halved for division sized units. That would explain that one.




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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 3:21:59 AM   
joshuamnave

 

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Status: offline 		No, just one ski unit. In fact, in the OP I said 4 corps, 1 ski division. The other was involved in taking Murmanks and still crawling down the Karelian Peninsula. Rule book doesn't say that ski units get half benny btw.. it says +1 per winterized unit, then defines winterized units to include ski units. I can't find any reference to halving that for divisions.

Also I know I've asked about this before, but I've looked and looked and still can't find any reference to a die roll modifier for armor attacking a city in the RAC, either under the section for ground combat or the section containing all of the modifiers for the 2d10 chart. Could someone please point me to the appropriate rule?

< Message edited by Zartacla -- 3/30/2017 5:54:48 AM >

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 8:55:00 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

No, just one ski unit. In fact, in the OP I said 4 corps, 1 ski division. The other was involved in taking Murmanks and still crawling down the Karelian Peninsula. Rule book doesn't say that ski units get half benny btw.. it says +1 per winterized unit, then defines winterized units to include ski units. I can't find any reference to halving that for divisions.

Also I know I've asked about this before, but I've looked and looked and still can't find any reference to a die roll modifier for armor attacking a city in the RAC, either under the section for ground combat or the section containing all of the modifiers for the 2d10 chart. Could someone please point me to the appropriate rule?


I can tell you that in the RAW there isn't, so in this case that's for sure it's not in the RAC.

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 11:29:49 AM   
michaelbaldur


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you said paratropper. it gives +1. maybe that is the missing link

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 11:31:33 AM   
michaelbaldur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

On bug 1: Both Finn ski units? Boni are halved for division sized units. That would explain that one.





it is half for blitz divisions

but winterized is just winter no matter the size

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 1:48:49 PM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

On bug 1: Both Finn ski units? Boni are halved for division sized units. That would explain that one.





it is half for blitz divisions

but winterized is just winter no matter the size


It must be like this for RAW7 and so RAC and MWIF, since I cannot find the opposite in the RAW or FAQ clarifications. But I just wanted to let you know it's no longer so in the game. Here probably the sounder voice in the WIFdiscussion list:

quote:

First question is a 2d10 related one. We know for some things, blitz bonus for example, divisions only give a +0.5 benefit. With others (+1 for AT defender vs ARM, +1 ENG attacking a city) you can deduce (or is it induce?) that you get the full benefit for a DIV, as there are only divisions - no corps - of these types. What about SKI & MTN divisions and winterized bonuses - do only winterized corps receive the full +1?

Second question concerns air factors. I remember previously that AA hits are resovled before doubling, and I think I read in the FAQ that you halve units bfeore resolving AA. So let me see if I have calculated things correctly in this example. I have a 5 red shaded LND ground supporting an attack vs a ARM and AA unit in woods. so I first halve my 5 to 3 for the woods. Then the AA fires and reduces my 3 to a 2. This is then doubled to 4 for my attack. Do I have this right?


quote:

This was erraticized in that anything that gets a +1 to the attacker
(winterized, blitz, paratroop) is halved for divisions, and further halved
for across the river. Makes it consistent with modifiers for the defender,
where divs are half modifier of corps.

AA is resolved before all halving. Since the AA itself is not halved for
weather, this is intutitively fair. Shoot at a 6 tac groundstriker in rain,
get 1 hit, then halve it to 3. Not halve it to 3, then inflict the hit. The
first paragraph of 8.2.3 clearly states that you apply the halving of
aircraft after AA is applied.

Post of 6/3/13

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 3:47:56 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

No, just one ski unit. In fact, in the OP I said 4 corps, 1 ski division. The other was involved in taking Murmanks and still crawling down the Karelian Peninsula. Rule book doesn't say that ski units get half benny btw.. it says +1 per winterized unit, then defines winterized units to include ski units. I can't find any reference to halving that for divisions.

Also I know I've asked about this before, but I've looked and looked and still can't find any reference to a die roll modifier for armor attacking a city in the RAC, either under the section for ground combat or the section containing all of the modifiers for the 2d10 chart. Could someone please point me to the appropriate rule?

There are 4 components to the RAC:
1. RAW7 rules from Aug 04
2. 2008 Annual Errata
3. 2009 WiF FAQ
4. deviations listed in the RAC

The 2008 Annual errata states: "Halve the attack bonus of all divisions (e.g. ARM/MECH armor divisions give +0.5, not +1 in attack). Rivers halve the blitz bonus of all units. This is cumulative (e.g. an ARM division’s blitz bonus attacking across a river is quartered)."

This does apply to winterized units.

So how it got to -4 would depend on which units were attacking across river hexsides and as pointed out by Michael, the paratrooper (assuming it is corps size) gives a +1 DRM and most likely there would then be a notional with a combat value of 3 giving another +1 DRM.

There is no modifier for Armor/Mech vs a city hex.

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 4:45:01 PM   
joshuamnave

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck



There are 4 components to the RAC:
1. RAW7 rules from Aug 04
2. 2008 Annual Errata
3. 2009 WiF FAQ
4. deviations listed in the RAC


The version of the game that I bought didn't come with a 2008 annual errata or a 2009 wif FAQ. It came with a book that says "the rules as coded" on the front of it. Now you're telling me that isn't accurate? It seems to me if "the rules as coded" differs from other versions of the game, then MWIF should stick to the rules that were sold with the game. In fact, we're frequently told that MWIF won't be updated to take into account new changes to the rules because the rules as coded is the final version for MWIF. So you can see my confusion.

quote:


The 2008 Annual errata states: "Halve the attack bonus of all divisions (e.g. ARM/MECH armor divisions give +0.5, not +1 in attack). Rivers halve the blitz bonus of all units. This is cumulative (e.g. an ARM division’s blitz bonus attacking across a river is quartered)."


Great! Can you tell me what page of The Rules As Coded I can find that on so I can highlight it please?

quote:


So how it got to -4 would depend on which units were attacking across river hexsides and as pointed out by Michael, the paratrooper (assuming it is corps size) gives a +1 DRM and most likely there would then be a notional with a combat value of 3 giving another +1 DRM.


Halving for attacking a river hexside does explain it. Two of the Finnish units were standing on ice at the time. The bonus for the para was correctly accounted for.

quote:


There is no modifier for Armor/Mech vs a city hex.


Or rly? Then what is the -1 penalty here for?





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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 5:13:50 PM   
paulderynck


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Status: offline 		To my knowledge the RAC incorporates these other sources, word search for "clarification" and for "deviation". FREX the clarification under 2D10 on page 83 states: "The 79th marine ARM DIV and U.S. marine ARM DIV receive the ½ ARM bonus when invading in Clear/Desert terrain hexes and using the Blitz table. I am not claiming that's the spot it's covered, although it references the halving, and maybe the exact mention of this was missed. You asked about the mods, and I responded with the answer and if the response explained what happened, then you're welcome.

The -1 is the AA Gun in Leningrad and is always in play when armor/mech attacks so I assume the part of the picture that's cropped off would show armor or mech in the attack.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 3/30/2017 5:20:23 PM >

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 5:24:58 PM   
joshuamnave

 

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Status: offline 		The AA gun would explain it. (edited because you were editing to add that while I was writing)

As for the invading divisions, the rules clearly state that divisions give half the blitz bonus, and the example you cited is an example of just that. However when talking about winterized units, the rules as coded does not say that. It says winterized units give a +2 on defense and a +1 on attack, then it lists winterized units with ski units listed right along side all other units. Nowhere does it say divisions or corps, nor does it in any way hint, allude to, intimate, suggest, or otherwise indicate that there is any difference between divisions and corps when it comes to defining winterized units. The rules as coded are not ambiguous, nor is there a printed deviation. What has been cited is a rule from a different source.

My guess is that many of these rules are legacy code from the original CWIF, which took into account the erratas and clarifications and annuals. But absent the inclusion of that material in the RAC, I would argue that it is incorrect. Unless it is gamebreaking, MWIF should reflect the printed version of the rules that came with the game (you know, those lovely hard bound books that were used to justify the high price point of the game in the first place). Many of the people who buy this game (including me) do not have access to the myriad of other publications that you are citing. Makes it difficult to play the game when you don't know the rules, and this is a problem that will only intensify as netplay becomes more stable. If only half the players know the rules, it will lead to unpleasantness.

< Message edited by Zartacla -- 3/30/2017 5:26:47 PM >

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 5:33:49 PM   
paulderynck


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Status: offline 		Were the factory mods erased by the presence of combat engineers?


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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 5:44:06 PM   
joshuamnave

 

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Status: offline 		Yes, thus only -1 for terrain & city. The 2 factor German eng was part of the attack.

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 7:14:47 PM   
paulderynck


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Status: offline 		Perhaps I'm mistaken on what MWiF does on winterized Divs, I stated what I thought to be the case. That is a change that was confirmed in the RAW8 rules process, but of course MWiF is not RAW8. It certainly makes sense that a Corps would provide more winterized combat power than a Div.

Without knowing which units attacked across which hexsides, I'm unable to compute what I think the total DRMs for that attack should be, for comparison purposes. From what I can see in your picture the Ski unit must have been credited with a +1. (Or maybe two of the German stacked hexes contain German mountain Divs.)

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 7:26:46 PM   
joshuamnave

 

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Status: offline 		I think the division was credited for +1 and the 2 Finnish corps standing on the ice were halved for the river. That would get us to the -4 and the RAC do cover halving the bonus for river crossing, so it looks like we're good on #1. Actually, can't tell for sure if the division was credited for +1 or +.5 and then rounded up.

Not 100% sure about #2 but I think that's a bug. The first loss should be an acutal loss, not the first shatter. And #3 is definitely a bug.

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 3/30/2017 7:31:20 PM   
paulderynck


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Status: offline 		#2 looked like a bug to me too. As is #3, I think.

Theoretically an extra point 5 would only round up if not playing fractional odds. If the latter, it is supposed to be added to the fraction and could even push you up one DRM at the expense of lowering the fraction by point 5.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 3/30/2017 7:32:36 PM >

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RE: one combat, 3 bugs - 7/5/2017 3:19:11 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

German attack on Leningrad in the snow and yes, I'll attach a save game file.

Bug 1: Both sides choose to use winterized units. 2 soviet elite units and 5 Finnish units (4 corps, 1 ski division). The net weather effect should be -3 (-4 for snow, -4 for soviet elite units, +5 for Finnish/ski units) but it's -4

Bug 2: the roll is a modified 20 with a result of 1 kill and the rest shattered. The game says the Soviets must shatter 2 units, with the first being a winterized unit. As I read the rules, the first destroy should be winterized, not the first shatter. None the less, the game will let the Soviets shatter the two winterized units and destroy the AA gun. Not very relevant since there are no retreat hexes, but in other situations it would be, and it leads to ...

Bug 3: After shattering the 2 winterized corps, the third (AA gun) unit is not destroyed. The German Para and the Soviet AA gun remain in the hex, and no other Axis units can advance because "the requirements for an overrun have not been met". If the Soviet player instead shatters the gun and one corps, everything works fine.

The odds are correct. There are two Finnish units attacking from frozen lake hexes which means they are halved (like attacking across a river in normal weather). That affects their winterized bonus too.

---

But the Shattered code is messed up.

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