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question about disputed Romania - 4/4/2017 10:30:47 PM

joshuamnave

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In a current solitaire game, Romania refused the Bessarabian demand and war ensued. German and Italian peacekeepers were unable to keep the Soviets from advancing beyond the disputed territory but have effectively blocked Soviet advances into Ploesti and Bucharest, so the war continues. Meanwhile, 2 Romanian units have left the country and wandered through Soviet controlled Eastern Poland. They move in, take a hex or two, and retreat into German territory before the Soviets can pin them down, and the Soviets are not able to retake the hexes because they are converted to German control as soon as Romanian units occupy them. Even when they finally catch and destroy the pesky Romanians, they can't even advance after combat. This has allowed German units to advance much closer to the Soviet border prior to Barbarossa. Is this correct? If Russia retreats back to Bessarabia and Germany enforces a peace, what happens to those hexes taken by Romanian units? In this scenario, why would Germany ever give the Soviets Bessarabia for free? Seems like far too good a deal for Germany when you combine the US entry benefits with the border situation.

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RE: question about disputed Romania - 4/4/2017 11:31:42 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

In a current solitaire game, Romania refused the Bessarabian demand and war ensued. German and Italian peacekeepers were unable to keep the Soviets from advancing beyond the disputed territory but have effectively blocked Soviet advances into Ploesti and Bucharest, so the war continues. Meanwhile, 2 Romanian units have left the country and wandered through Soviet controlled Eastern Poland. They move in, take a hex or two, and retreat into German territory before the Soviets can pin them down, and the Soviets are not able to retake the hexes because they are converted to German control as soon as Romanian units occupy them. Even when they finally catch and destroy the pesky Romanians, they can't even advance after combat. This has allowed German units to advance much closer to the Soviet border prior to Barbarossa. Is this correct? If Russia retreats back to Bessarabia and Germany enforces a peace, what happens to those hexes taken by Romanian units? In this scenario, why would Germany ever give the Soviets Bessarabia for free? Seems like far too good a deal for Germany when you combine the US entry benefits with the border situation.

This is already on my task list.

But, like you, I am not sure how to handle the hexes in East Poland that the Rumanian's have 'taken'.

Minor countries are not suppose to 'own' hexes outside of their home country. Hence they are marked as controlled by their parent major power (Germany).

Once peace is enforced, it would seem reasonable to make them controlled by the USSR (again). That wouldn't be difficult to code since it would happen as part of the USSR gaining control of Bessarabia as part of the Enforced Peace routines.

But if peace is not enforced, them having Germany remain in control seems correct.

===

This could also come up for Finland.

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RE: question about disputed Romania - 4/5/2017 12:19:25 AM

brian brian

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Why would Germany cede Bessarabia?

Because a good USSR player will hit Ploesti with 3-4 bombers per turn, maybe even 5 on the second turn and onwards, with no possible Axis interception. They could also summon Zhukov from the Asian map perhaps.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

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RE: question about disputed Romania - 4/5/2017 12:54:57 AM

joshuamnave

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I agree that it would make sense to return those hexes to Russia... but what about German units that have already advanced in to them? Should they be removed?

And it gets weirder. Currently hexes inside Russia itself that are occupied by Romania units are not German controlled hexes - they can be retaken by Russian units.

And Axis interception is possible once the Romanian fighters are available to be built. But at this stage of the war, Germany can shrug off the loss of 3 resources per turn if not playing with oil rules and until the convoy system is workable I refuse to use the oil rules. The ability to base the Stukas closer to the Soviet border and the extra cities to rail troops from France seems pretty strong.

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RE: question about disputed Romania - 4/5/2017 2:19:52 AM

paulderynck

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The rules say "Axis units may not cross the partition line after the USSR exercises its rights unless Germany and the USSR are at war."

I submit this means neither German peacekeeper tailgaters nor Romanians may enter East Poland.

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RE: question about disputed Romania - 4/5/2017 2:48:44 AM

joshuamnave

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Well that seems dispositive.. making this a bug. On the other hand, it doesn't make much sense for Russia to be able to declare war on a country and have a magic wall that stops units from that country taking its territory. Would make more sense to ban the German piggybackers.

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RE: question about disputed Romania - 4/5/2017 11:24:59 AM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The rules say "Axis units may not cross the partition line after the USSR exercises its rights unless Germany and the USSR are at war."

I submit this means neither German peacekeeper tailgaters nor Romanians may enter East Poland.

I don't agree on that approach. When someone is at war, why would you limit the units they are using to advance when they are attacking the enemy? And in the case of Eastern Poland that also means, that the Soviets can simply disregard that area when demanding their claim...

To me, it seems perfectly clear that the Rumanians when at war with the Soviets can enter any Soviet controlled hex. Hexes thus taken, should be able to be retaken by the USSR and when peace is enforced by Germany, should be returned to the USSR (this was ruled at a Eurowif tournament in the past when this exact situation occurred).

The rules are quite clear: Axis units cannot cross the partition line. They can cross the Rumanian - East Poland border when the Rumanians are at war...

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RE: question about disputed Romania - 4/5/2017 12:48:33 PM

brian brian

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The Rumanian FTR don't arrive until 1942.

I agree on the convoy system but playing without the Oil Rule is the single most powerful Option one can give the Axis, who will soon deploy a massive amount of units which are better than Allied units - almost argues even more for Russia to Demand Bessarabia and hope for a DOW and a chance to bring in the Siberians and finish the campaign while the Luftwaffe is needed in France.

Note also that Oil hexes are not indestructible, like coal mines. If the Russians can occupy or roll well bombing Ploesti, it costs the Axis 12 BP just to return the 3 Oil resources to production.

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RE: question about disputed Romania - 4/5/2017 12:54:26 PM

brian brian

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I would also think that if Rumanian units are having adventures in Poland or the other parts of the Ukraine, there would likely be very little chance that Germany could enforce a Peace as Russia should be able to take a hex outside Bessarabia quite easily in that case. But were Rumania conquered, all hexes taken by Rumania while Ge/USSR are not at war should be reverted to Russia. (In my opinion, not necessarily the rules' opinion).

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RE: question about disputed Romania - 4/5/2017 2:45:33 PM

Centuur

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I would also think that if Rumanian units are having adventures in Poland or the other parts of the Ukraine, there would likely be very little chance that Germany could enforce a Peace as Russia should be able to take a hex outside Bessarabia quite easily in that case. But were Rumania conquered, all hexes taken by Rumania while Ge/USSR are not at war should be reverted to Russia. (In my opinion, not necessarily the rules' opinion).

I agree on this too.
It would really be a very bad Soviet player not to have enough units on the border to prevent a German "no" regarding Bessarabia. It simply comes back on having the forces available with which you can:

1. Bomb the oil fields again and again until they are gone in an oil game;
2. Have almost the whole European army at the Bessarabian border before demanding Bessarabia. That's to say: unless you want to fight a war against Rumania (which usually isn't a smart move by the USSR).

< Message edited by Centuur -- 4/5/2017 2:46:31 PM >

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RE: question about disputed Romania - 4/7/2017 7:31:06 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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I will make the code change so that once Peace is enforced, any hexes in the USSR and eastern Poland revert to USSR control. This will be handled the same way as all the hexes in Bessarabia. Which is to say, any German units in any of those hexes will be 'relocated' to the nearest valid Axis controlled hex.

---

I just recently made a change which relocates German units out of Bessarabia when peace is enforced - so I am very familiar with the code for all of this. 5 minutes tops to make the changes.

---

I'll leave the code as is, enabling Rumanian units to enter Eastern Poland (and perhaps German units to follow in their footsteps).

EDIT: This decision is based on the discussion above in this thread.

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Post #: 11