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[IMPROVEMENTS v1.12] Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations

 
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[IMPROVEMENTS v1.12] Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON r... - 4/17/2017 4:56:08 PM   
VilleYrjola

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline 		Heya

I haven't touched CMANO for a long time, but it finally feels like I'm starting to scratch the surface of this amazing simulator. I have couple of questions regarding my AAW patrols. I've been messing around in Basinc Training: Air Operations 1983 scenario and recently decided to send out my F-14s on an AAW patrol with their radars set off (EMCON seto to passive), I also had E-2C running AEW duty at the same time. After my E-2C spots Fishbeds with her radar my F-14s fire their Phoenix missiles without turning on their radar. How realistic is this behavior of blindly shooting Phoenix missiles at an enemy that is spotted by AEW platform and hoping that missiles terminal guidance radar picks up the target eventually and also what kind of WRA settings should I use to prevent my F-14s firing their weapons based on AWE data should I so choose?

So with those questions out of the way I have one more: After my F-14s got closer to the enemy Fishbeds a couple of my Tomcats fired Sparrows and switched on their radars in order to guide them to the targets. What setting in my EMCON/WRA or some other tab controls this behaviour and why did the F-14s decide to switch on their radars to fire Sparrows when they did not switch on their radars to fire Phoenix missiles? After scoring a kill with the sparrow the said F-14 promptly switched off its radar and merrily flew back home.

I could try to provide saves if someone needs one, but I believe that this is result of my experience level rather than a bug. I'm running v1.11 SR7 Build 906.26

< Message edited by emsoy -- 4/21/2017 4:46:54 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/17/2017 8:04:32 PM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		Rosmarus

This behavior is the way things should work. The F-14 is able to link with the E-2 via Link 4A or later Link-16 data modes, this will queue the missile and it will fire into the area where the target is projected to be. Then the missile turns on its own guidance radar and finds the target.

The Aim-7 Sparrow on the other hand is a SARH (Semi-Active Radar Homing) missile and requires the F-14 to guide it and paint the target with its radar. Best way to defeat a SARH missile is to fire at the aiming aircraft, force it to evade and it loses lock on the target.

As for the best WRA settings I'll let some of the A2A wizards handle that. But from your description, things are working as designed.

B

(in reply to VilleYrjola)
Post #: 2
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/17/2017 8:15:08 PM   
VilleYrjola

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks for the response Gunner. So in essence the F-14s receive the target location from the AEW and fire the missiles based on that information. After the launch AIM-54s fly withot midcourse guidance into the target area and hopefully they pick up targets with their terminal guidance radar once they are in the rage?

As for the Sparrows, I was wondering why they switched their radars on when I had set them into passive mode during the mission planning. I expected them to move straight into Sidewinders and keep their radars offline for the duration of the fight.

< Message edited by Rosmarus -- 4/17/2017 8:16:49 PM >

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 3
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/17/2017 8:49:37 PM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		With the Aim-54, that is how I understand that they work, the terminal guidance radar turns at some point - am not really sure if that is at a pre-set range or if the radar guiding (from the E-2C) sends a signal.

To tell your AC to remain absolutely passive and not use their Aim-7's you have to go into WRA and tell it to never use the Aim-7. Or you could set the engagement range to match either the Sidewinder range or visual detection range, depending on how you want to fight it. You can quickly reset your WRA with one click (bottom left) when you want to go back to the normal setting.

To be honest, I'm not the best one to answer on this one - I build them better than I play them

B

(in reply to VilleYrjola)
Post #: 4
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/17/2017 9:16:29 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline 		Here's a good guide to TDLs ... http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/DataLinkProcessingAndManagement/Documents/Understanding_Voice+Data_Link_Networking.pdf

(in reply to VilleYrjola)
Post #: 5
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/17/2017 10:21:22 PM   
JamitovHymem

 

Posts: 47
Joined: 7/4/2016
Status: offline 		This seems to apply to all the active radar homing missiles in game
For example if you have a Su-35 and a AEW aircraft
When you fire a R-77-1 at the enemy and turn around right after you fire the missile, the missile will still be tracking the target the whole time as long as the AEW aircraft can see it regardless of what the Su-35 is doing, of course it doesn't matter whether the radar is on or off
It just feels like all the F&F AAMs in game have CEC capability

(in reply to Primarchx)
Post #: 6
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/18/2017 4:38:35 PM   
VilleYrjola

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline 		But in this case AIM-54 seem to have been fired only based on the information at hand (produced by the AEW) during the launch and after that missiles do not receive any midcourse guidance. Is there a way to prevent my fighters from firing their missiles in this way, other than preveting them from using them at all from ROE settings?

(in reply to JamitovHymem)
Post #: 7
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/18/2017 5:07:37 PM   
StellarRat

 

Posts: 188
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline 		I believe Gunner's description of the Phoenix is accurate. It's worth noting a couple things about the Phoenix: 1. I don't think the US ever used one in anger, so it's really hard to say how effective they should be. The were designed to shoot down large Russian bombers at long range while they were trying to attack the fleet. My reading is that they are not very nimble and might not be too good against fighters that know they're coming. 2. I think at time they had a state of the art radar guidance system, powerful and sophisticated. They were meant to be mostly fire and forget.

< Message edited by StellarRat -- 4/18/2017 5:13:33 PM >

(in reply to VilleYrjola)
Post #: 8
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/21/2017 12:42:32 AM   
Lanzfeld

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 4/21/2017
Status: offline 		Okay new player here but I have to expand on a problem I'm seeing.

Same tutorial. You can test this yourself.
I launch a group of F-14's first thing. Side doctrine all ECON's off. No radar.

After they takeoff they launch their missles from only RWR contacts! No radar! Not even the Hawkeyes radar, No AEW.

Is this normal? They are basically doing bearing only launches with these missles. They shoot right after they takeoff. No other friendlys in the air.

< Message edited by Lanzfeld -- 4/21/2017 12:44:01 AM >

(in reply to StellarRat)
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RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/21/2017 12:53:51 AM   
Cik

 

Posts: 671
Joined: 10/5/2016
Status: offline 		that's pretty weird. normally I'd think that you could get a mid-course-to-terminal off of a link16 but definitely not off the RWR. I've never heard of such a capability and i doubt any defensive systems were accurate enough to provide range/heading information to guide a missile to terminal.

it's probably busted if that's the case, it likely shouldn't be able to do that.

(in reply to Lanzfeld)
Post #: 10
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/21/2017 12:57:58 AM   
Raptorx7_slith

 

Posts: 380
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik

that's pretty weird. normally I'd think that you could get a mid-course-to-terminal off of a link16 but definitely not off the RWR. I've never heard of such a capability and i doubt any defensive systems were accurate enough to provide range/heading information to guide a missile to terminal.

it's probably busted if that's the case, it likely shouldn't be able to do that.


Go ahead and post that in tech support just in case, include the save file as well.

(in reply to Cik)
Post #: 11
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/21/2017 7:04:28 AM   
VilleYrjola

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline 		You can probably prevent launching AIM-54s based only on RWR contact by checking the box "only engage contacts positively identified as hostile". AFAIK RWR can't identify the radar. Still it is not optimal that these bearing only launches are automatically in the game. With Hawkeye I'm not seeing any midcourse guidnance at all and based on my research from public sources Phoenix missiles were only guided by F-14s radar. A while back someone here mentioned that they could Asko be guided by the AEW radar but how they did it was classified.

(in reply to Raptorx7_slith)
Post #: 12
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/21/2017 9:28:01 AM   
Lanzfeld

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 4/21/2017
Status: offline 		Just to get it straight.

1. I do have "only fire at known hostiles" checked

2. There are no airborne early warning airplanes in the air.

3. The tomcats are not using the radar because I have everything set on passive.

4. I don't have a saved file but you can test it yourself easily enough. Go to the air war tutorial and start off by launching some tomcats to go on an airborne patrol. Make sure the radar is off. You will see them launch bearing only off RWR contacts .

(in reply to VilleYrjola)
Post #: 13
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/21/2017 2:29:45 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		The setups are usually so complex we insist on a savegame no matter how simple a setup seems to be on the surface

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RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/21/2017 3:10:29 PM   
User2

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 1/14/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanzfeld

4. I don't have a saved file but you can test it yourself easily enough. Go to the air war tutorial and start off by launching some tomcats to go on an airborne patrol. Make sure the radar is off. You will see them launch bearing only off RWR contacts .


I can not confirm it. 1.11R7.
Just tried. Air tut, made new AAW mission, arranged 3 F14A as a group for the mission, RoE: Tight, EMCON: Passive/no radar emission. No other aircrafts.
RWR got targets, but my group did not engage them until they were sure that it was enemy. One of aircrafts from my group switched on its radar upon engagement.

However I find it strange that AIM-54A can be launched while craft's emision is turned off. The missile flies in a blind mode for 5 secs then it switches to its own radar without any mid-course guidance. Moreover, this AIM-54A flies straight to designated target ignoring other crafts. How can it know what to attack? No data-link, no parent craft emission. In my opinion it should engage any craft caught in his radar cone. Or, at most, any craft of target's type.

By the way, aim-54a (1974) has "late 1970s" technology sensor in the database. Should it be "early 1970s" instead?

(in reply to Lanzfeld)
Post #: 15
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/21/2017 4:44:20 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Pretty certain this should work ok in the 1.12 Release Candidate

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Post #: 16
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/21/2017 6:11:56 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: User2
...


By the way, aim-54a (1974) has "late 1970s" technology sensor in the database. Should it be "early 1970s" instead?


Could be that the way the system generations work in Command (they are generally grouped in generations for purposes of ECM and other comparative purposes), AIM-54A fit more in the Late '70s generation than an earlier one.

(in reply to User2)
Post #: 17
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/21/2017 7:47:34 PM   
VilleYrjola

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lanzfeld

Okay new player here but I have to expand on a problem I'm seeing.

Same tutorial. You can test this yourself.
I launch a group of F-14's first thing. Side doctrine all ECON's off. No radar.

After they takeoff they launch their missles from only RWR contacts! No radar! Not even the Hawkeyes radar, No AEW.

Is this normal? They are basically doing bearing only launches with these missles. They shoot right after they takeoff. No other friendlys in the air.


I can't replicate this either. Just tested this, RWR picked up enemy FCRs but that did not result in a weapons release.

(in reply to Lanzfeld)
Post #: 18
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/21/2017 10:46:30 PM   
Lanzfeld

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 4/21/2017
Status: offline 		May I ask you to try again and this time launch a Hawkeyes right behind the f-14's with radars off.

Maybe the Hawkeyes blips it's radar for a micro second before the order takes over and the f-14's fire off that?

I would test more myself but I won't be home until Sunday.

I've seen it happen three times!

I'm loving loving loving this sim! I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this odd behavior.

< Message edited by Lanzfeld -- 4/21/2017 10:53:13 PM >

(in reply to VilleYrjola)
Post #: 19
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/22/2017 8:39:58 AM   
VilleYrjola

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline 		This time I launched a flight of four F-14s with their radars off and E-2C with its radar off. E-2C was able to identify FCR contacts with its ELINT sensor and after the positive ENY identification was made F-14s fired their AIM-54s with only passive sensor contacts from my side. I have a save file of this happening attached to this message.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Rosmarus -- 4/22/2017 8:42:32 AM >

(in reply to Lanzfeld)
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RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/22/2017 10:36:27 AM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Game version?

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RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/22/2017 12:15:13 PM   
VilleYrjola

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline 		v. 1.11 Service Release 7 - Build 906.26 so the latest one pushed to Steam.

Sorry for not including that in the original message containing the save file.

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 22
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/22/2017 2:42:35 PM   
Filitch


Posts: 423
Joined: 6/25/2016
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Reproduced on 1.12 RC build 936.2. F-14 launch AIM-54 and AIM-7F only by RWR contacts detected and determined by E-2C's AN/ALR-59 PDS.

(in reply to VilleYrjola)
Post #: 23
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/22/2017 3:17:21 PM   
User2

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 1/14/2016
Status: offline 		Why whould anybody use 936.2 to test bugs while the latests RC is 936.5.
936.5: F-14 are not allowed to use AIM-54 with RWR targeting anymore. Uncertainty +-20nm is definitely too high.

(in reply to Filitch)
Post #: 24
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/22/2017 6:12:23 PM   
Filitch


Posts: 423
Joined: 6/25/2016
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: User2
Why whould anybody use 936.2 to test bugs while the latests RC is 936.5.
936.5: F-14 are not allowed to use AIM-54 with RWR targeting anymore. Uncertainty +-20nm is definitely too high.


You right. I installed 936.5. And reproduced bug. E-2C detected new contacts. F-14 switched status to Engage offensive (Executing BVR attack) and attacked hostile contacts.

(in reply to User2)
Post #: 25
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/22/2017 11:48:26 PM   
Lanzfeld

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 4/21/2017
Status: offline 		Thank you for retesting. I knew I wasn't crazy!


Yes mine was the latest release version

(in reply to Filitch)
Post #: 26
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/24/2017 9:55:59 PM   
Filitch


Posts: 423
Joined: 6/25/2016
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		What I did wrong? I started "Basic Training Air Operations, 1983" scenario. Created EAW (mission class - Support) mission and assigned E-2Cs to it. Created CAP (mission class - Patrol, type - AAW Patrol) mission and assigned 2 F-14s to it. Set side doctrine, every mission doctrine EMCON settings "Radar - passive" and "Ignore EMCON while under attack - No". Hawkeye started first and was shutdown by MiGs while Tomcats takeoffs. Tomcats detected only missiles by Eyeball. Leader F-14 turned they radar on and both Tomcats launched different missiles - AIM-54, AIM-7F, AIM-9L. Version 936.6, database 465.
Why F-14 turned radar on? I confused. Thanks in advance for explanation.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Lanzfeld)
Post #: 27
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/24/2017 10:03:07 PM   
Filitch


Posts: 423
Joined: 6/25/2016
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Update. Next run Tomcats after take off changed they status to "Engage offensive (Shotgun, engage opportunity targets)(Cranking)" and launched AIM-54 without turning radars on.
After missile launch status was changed to "Engage offensive (Shotgun, engage opportunity targets)(Executing BVR attack)". Radar was turned on.

< Message edited by Filitch -- 4/24/2017 10:04:31 PM >

(in reply to Filitch)
Post #: 28
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/24/2017 10:31:20 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		If it helps, I have a scenario that I created using Iranian F-14s. They activate the FCR radars, and fire their Phoenix missiles at their airborne targets as designed. When the US planes target the Iranian F-14s, the Tomcats have to turn to avoid the incoming US AA missiles. When the F-14s turn, they break contact with their own target, and their Phoenix goes blind, as it should. Since the Phoenix wasn't close enough to activate its own radar, it ends up self-destructing. The bottom line is, everything seems to work perfectly on my end. Again, my F-14s are Iranian, and the situation is a little different, but perhaps my info could be beneficial to you.

Doug

(in reply to Filitch)
Post #: 29
RE: Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations - 4/25/2017 3:50:28 AM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		Hm the Phoenix missiles should switch to autopilot, not self-destruct like normal SARH. Are you sure this happened?

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