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September1944 - 5/4/2018 8:15:58 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 171, 21th september 1944

Some grinding in the north. Russian tank corps are refiting...



Another bridgehead over the Dniepr...



... but only temporary. I took 2 pictures of the fight in order to show the impact of the retreat. art and AFV don't like retreating.



Situation is becoming worrying on the lower Dniepr. Fortunatly, supply isn't easy through swamp and major river.


(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 751
September1944 - 5/5/2018 6:46:50 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 172, 28th september 1944

New breakthrough attempt near Minsk...



... Pzk did the job. Heavy AFV losses on the russian side



Same story than previous week near Cherkassy. Lots of air units involved



On the lower Dniepr, russians failed to extend their bridgehead. But time is definitively not on my side...



(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 752
RE: September1944 - 5/5/2018 11:32:45 PM   
Mamluke


Posts: 193
Joined: 11/11/2015
Status: offline 		but steff, in this situation at the Dniepr, times is on your side, you just need to hold a few more turns and mud! fallowed by snow.
I mean, you are almost at October, maybe a early mud?

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 753
RE: September1944 - 5/6/2018 10:54:14 AM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mamluke

but steff, in this situation at the Dniepr, times is on your side, you just need to hold a few more turns and mud! fallowed by snow.
I mean, you are almost at October, maybe a early mud?

True, I shouldn't complain after such a summer.

But I was more thinking about the whole campaign. If the german has not won end summer 1942, it's over.

We are playing non random, so no surprise on weather.

(in reply to Mamluke)
Post #: 754
RE: September1944 - 5/6/2018 12:43:56 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		you should still win by points with the new scenario scoring no?

As yo are doing much better than historical by far.

I think the main mistake the soviet player has made is not concentrating all armor, mech, and cav corps backed by lots of artillery BDE/DIV in the same sector. To me this is critical, the German panzerball is nigh unstoppable until 1943 and then from 1943 on the soviet player has to do the same. As just grinding wont smash the German army fast enough.

I still think best overall strategy for both sides is about the same as real life-- whichever side has the mobility edge from 1942+ on should fight in the south as there is less defensive terrain....then are you drag all the opposing mobile elements into the south it allows the north to either stay stagnant or for the soviets 1943+ infantry corps to slowly push the german infantry line out of lvl 3 forts...at which point the soviet infantry should be able to easily beat up late war German infantry units.

Thus my critique of the soviet play...armor elements still scattered and thus not effective at all against German counterattack operations. Is also some extremely bad moves for the soviets to let their armor get decimated week after week...thus not building up elite levels of morale. Until you get at least a 2 hex breach in the German lines to fully exploit you need to use the armor to do hit and run attacks on the german lines. This one helps to build morale and two allows you to successfully repair more soviet armor by not being adjacent to German units in the repair phase. Then try to use soviet infantry to be adjacent to German armor to help limit their repair rates.

again my 2 cents

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 755
RE: September1944 - 5/7/2018 5:32:43 AM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

you should still win by points with the new scenario scoring no?

Not sure what you're speaking about. We are playing bitter end and I didn't noticed that victory conditions changed

quote:


As yo are doing much better than historical by far.

... but the fate will be the same

quote:


I think the main mistake the soviet player has made is not concentrating all armor, mech, and cav corps backed by lots of artillery BDE/DIV in the same sector. To me this is critical, the German panzerball is nigh unstoppable until 1943 and then from 1943 on the soviet player has to do the same. As just grinding wont smash the German army fast enough.

I still think best overall strategy for both sides is about the same as real life-- whichever side has the mobility edge from 1942+ on should fight in the south as there is less defensive terrain....then are you drag all the opposing mobile elements into the south it allows the north to either stay stagnant or for the soviets 1943+ infantry corps to slowly push the german infantry line out of lvl 3 forts...at which point the soviet infantry should be able to easily beat up late war German infantry units.

Thus my critique of the soviet play...armor elements still scattered and thus not effective at all against German counterattack operations. Is also some extremely bad moves for the soviets to let their armor get decimated week after week...thus not building up elite levels of morale. Until you get at least a 2 hex breach in the German lines to fully exploit you need to use the armor to do hit and run attacks on the german lines. This one helps to build morale and two allows you to successfully repair more soviet armor by not being adjacent to German units in the repair phase. Then try to use soviet infantry to be adjacent to German armor to help limit their repair rates.

again my 2 cents

I believe the problem is more about the structure of red army: too many tank corps, not enough artillery early 1944, not enough IL2M

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 756
RE: September1944 - 5/7/2018 8:20:27 AM   
beender


Posts: 184
Joined: 2/23/2017
From: Beijing, China
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

... but the fate will be the same


I agree that simply losing Berlin a little or even much later than history does not feel like a "victory"

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 757
RE: September1944 - 5/7/2018 9:00:08 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Hi from the soviet :

My opinion about some questions in this thread :

Scoring :
This bitter end scenario is lost for the soviet. I do not believe in fact the you can win point wise if you loose both leningrad and moscow. They give tons of points to the german each turn. (You can probably loose one, but not two).

Too many tanks corps, not enough artillery and infantry :
Yes and No. I do not believe i have too many tank corps. I have the equipment to use them.
It is true that i could use more infantry corps and artillery. (Not in main axe of offensive where it is already crowded, but everywhere else because quiet part of the front are currently a little too quiet for the german).
In fact i stopped producing new units end 1943 and i should not have done that. New units to do not weaken the red army. Currently my manpower production is growing and better than the one in 1942 due to returning disabled and capture of new towns.
I restarted the production mid 1944.
With proper management, i could probably had the current amount of tank corps and more others stuffs at the same time.

You should concentrate soviet tank ball more :
Not sûre and in fact i already concentrated large amount of troops at the same point with not very good results. You cannot stack so much unit due to the 3 stack limits, and also if you concentrate top soviet troops somewhere you will face top german troops. And top german troops still better than top soviet troops.
Maybe i fail at deception

You should not let your tanks corps being attacked :
It was in fact on purpose. I noticed that tank corps on the defensive inflicts tons of casualties on attacking german troops and i was expecting to attrit the german army
by forcing it to do costly counter attack each turn. So i kept my troops in contact.
It was not effective, probably because german manpower production is higher than i was expected. (Not counting german tanks that are very hard to damage, it is ever harder to attrit german tank production).

More IL-2 :
I have in fact tons of IL-2 squadron, but using them in detail take too much time and would have lead to a game burn out.
Unfortunately, automatic ground support is not very efficient with very, very limited impact on the battle results.

I could probably have caused from 2000 to 5000 casualties to german each turn by micromanaging 100 air raids each turn, but it really take too much time.
The worst is not doing the raid, (i managed to configure the automatic system to do quite efficient raid in one click). The worst is to rotate air squadron in and out reserve for morale management. The interface is terrible you need tons of click for each air squadron.

I'am also not sûre at all these casualties would have changed the game as i caused 30000+ casualties each turn to the german in 1943 with no noticeable effect.


You lack experience of late war WITE :

Really true, i did a lot of mistakes and mostly lost a lot of time with stuff that are in fact not very usefull.
WITE have tons of parameters, but not all these parameters have a real effect on the game.

I'am also not used to be on offensive it is a different sensation for a soviet player

And of course let's not forget Stephane state of the art defense.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 5/7/2018 9:20:28 AM >

(in reply to beender)
Post #: 758
RE: September1944 - 5/8/2018 8:52:36 AM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Thanks to Stelteck for sharing his analysis of the game.

I agree with him on the russian "panzer ball" but I would have concentrated more strength on the DZ area. Dniepr is easier to cross here, even if the german set his best units in this sector.

Maybe he is right on the organisation of red army with lots of tanks corps... there is not so much games entering 1944 in order to compare.

I only disagree with the use of IL2M. It's boring (even if useful) to use them against level 3 entrenchment but bery efficient against retreating or non entrenched units. You can get 500+ kill with a single tac bombing in this case. It really makes the difference on the long term.


(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 759
October 1944 - 5/8/2018 4:50:46 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 173, 5th october 1944

Last turn of clear weather. Stelteck did an interesting attack in the center. As indicated few turns ago, I will detail step by step the way I use to maximize russian losses

The situation after russian moves. It's dangerous for my 3 stacks between the russian pincers but ground is also very interesting with impassable hexes, swamp and a major river...



First: heavy tac bombing. Units without entrenchment suffer significant losses and disruption.



An intuition told me not to retake hexes under russian control and first counter attack proved me to be right! Due to the stacks and ZOC, the russian units retreat to the west!



I decide to play all my cards to get a very good result. Second counterattack and same result... it begins to be very interesting!



Counterattack of the northern pincer



Sealing the Pocket!



Last counterattack against the northern pincer



Final view, no rescue possible. 8 russian corps trapped. Well I wanted to show how to use ZOC's to maximize russian losses but results are far beyond my expectations! Russian november offensive will be less efficient.




< Message edited by STEF78 -- 5/8/2018 4:53:06 PM >

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 760
RE: October 1944 - 5/8/2018 5:57:12 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		ouch

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 761
RE: October 1944 - 5/9/2018 7:30:31 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

Posts: 898
Joined: 10/7/2016
From: England
Status: offline 		Well that just happened.....

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 762
October 1944 - 5/9/2018 8:41:06 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 173, 5th october 1944

The cherry on the cake, another russian tank corps trapped South of Kiev



Dniepr is no longer a barrier in the South



The losses, heavy fights



(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 763
Summer campaign 1944 - 5/10/2018 7:14:50 AM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		An overview of the summer campaign.

The early retreat behind the Dniepr was a good decision as russian units were far from railhead and that axis units benefited from a good defensive terrain.

I had thought that the landbridge woul have hold longer ... but red army was really too strong.

We now still hold Kiev, Leningrad, white Russia and all western Ukraine... time for new adventures!


(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 764
RE: Summer campaign 1944 - 5/10/2018 12:34:36 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Good counterattack at Vilnius. I am surprised by the retreat path taken by the Soviets, I would have expected two of the Tank corps to go to the Swamp hex with the 20=90 rifle corps in it.

_____________________________

The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 765
RE: Summer campaign 1944 - 5/10/2018 3:30:33 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Good counterattack at Vilnius. I am surprised by the retreat path taken by the Soviets, I would have expected two of the Tank corps to go to the Swamp hex with the 20=90 rifle corps in it.

True, but 2 MP to enter a light forest hex, 6 MP for a swamp hex... AI selected the easier path

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 766
RE: Summer campaign 1944 - 5/10/2018 3:37:59 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		But the retreat path I suggested had one less ZOC to ZOC movement and is less costly. Maybe the retreat algorith does only consider MP costs from terrain and not from ZOC in its calculation. Someone needs to break in in Gary Grigsby's or morvaels office and steal the secret formula.

_____________________________

The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 767
RE: Summer campaign 1944 - 5/10/2018 4:49:54 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		I believe you're right only if you consider that there is no ZOC through impassable hex.

I didn't find the rule about that.


(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 768
RE: Summer campaign 1944 - 5/11/2018 9:28:26 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		1942 scenario has a good place to test this at velikie lukie, I just did it to confirm my memory. There is no ZOC through impassable hexagons.

_____________________________

The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 769
RE: Summer campaign 1944 - 5/11/2018 1:38:36 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline
quote:

There is no ZOC through impassable hexagons.

Don't you mean impassable hexsides. Would be difficult to verify if a ZOC extended into an impassable hexagon, and perhaps not too critical.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 770
RE: Summer campaign 1944 - 5/11/2018 9:59:03 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		You are right, I mean the blue dotted lines. Impas

_____________________________

The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 771
Mud 1944 - 5/12/2018 10:16:41 AM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Usually, it's a period without significant action. This time air units are on duty over surrounded units



< Message edited by STEF78 -- 5/12/2018 11:43:31 AM >

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 772
November 1944 - 5/14/2018 9:23:08 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 178, 9th november 1944

Mud is over, time to harvest!

Near Minsk



And near Kiev



We give some ground in the South to shorten the line



The losses, simply amazing for a november 1944 week!



And the OOB, russian AFV below 25k!


(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 773
RE: November 1944 - 5/15/2018 10:24:30 AM   
Balou


Posts: 841
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline 		At this stage, how long does it take to rebuild 4 (experienced?) tank/cav corps ?

_____________________________

“Aim towards enemy“.
- instructions on U.S. rocket launcher

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 774
RE: November 1944 - 5/15/2018 11:09:58 AM   
beender


Posts: 184
Joined: 2/23/2017
From: Beijing, China
Status: offline 		This is impressive! To destroy a few tank corps would be a dream that every german commander in 1944 dared not to hold.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 775
RE: November 1944 - 5/15/2018 12:58:04 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

At this stage, how long does it take to rebuild 4 (experienced?) tank/cav corps ?


6-8 months. They are effectively lost for the war.

(in reply to Balou)
Post #: 776
November 1944 - 5/21/2018 7:47:15 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		The detail of destroyed russian units:

6 tank corps, 2 cav corps, 1 mech corp, 17 tank régiments ...


(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 777
RE: November 1944 - 5/21/2018 8:28:02 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1376
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Tank regiments will be disbanded i will use SU regiment instead. Others will return in the fight.

< Message edited by Stelteck -- 5/21/2018 8:34:40 PM >

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 778
RE: November 1944 - 5/21/2018 8:37:27 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		that was alot of soviet heavy tanks, be hard to replace all that combat power lost. Esp long term morale/exp.

(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 779
November 1944 - 5/22/2018 9:23:19 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 179, 16th november 1944

Soviets resume offensive in the center.



And in Ukraine



Always some lack of Manpower to fill the army


(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 780
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